What is happening???....

Ferrous,what the hell you talking about egging peoples houses? You've completely lost me.

Raghorn, ditto for this part of the country.

I just heard a Maryland police official explaining that these crimes are terrible in that; 'the victim's were defenseless" ...Yeah right. Who voted that in? Who allowed state legislature to do that?
Now school children may be the target, and parents are urged to talk to their children...About what!!!! How in hell can anyone be discussing how to watch out for someone shooting you in the back from hundreds of yards away in a crowded city? I'm going to love to hear what the bureacrats come up with now..wanna bet, 'stay in your homes if at all possible?
and it will all seem probable....maybe more gun control will help!!!

The gun and the khukuri are not the solutions to society's problems; but they sure would have helped in not letting it get this far along the path to hell!!

munk
 
Honestly, I doubt most people would do very well against a half-decent sniper, concealed weapon or not.

That said, lots of people are excessively paranoid about guns. I'd bet $500 that within a month there is some sort of bill to address "sniper rifles" in Maryland.

Maybe the legislature will mandate a "maximum accuracy" - only guns with an accuracy of +/- 50 feet at 50 yards will be allowed to be sold. (Better not say that too loud, someone might get ideas) :rolleyes:
 
That said, lots of people are excessively paranoid about guns. I'd bet $500 that within a month there is some sort of bill to address "sniper rifles" in Maryland

OR have to start filling out a form to buy a scope.
 
Nope, think we live 125 miles apart or so. Have some basic similar ideas, tho.

Tohatchi can get Bondini 2, I can't. :D
 
The logo on a news channel I just saw said: SHOOTING SPREE

as if that's something like a shopping spree, or playing minature golf...a shooting spree: something we shooters are always at risk for...

The guy in the Texas tower had a brain tumor. wonder what this wacko has?

munk
 
Sorry, philthygeezer, I disagree.

I wouldn't alter a crime scene, but, life is worth living correctly. That means standing up for what you believe in and fighting evil. Even if a few good people go down fighting, they went down for a good cause, and will sleep well. Standing up for the right cause IS worth something, it's not just about property, it's about doing the right thing. If more people would do this, we'd have a lot less crime.

As for stalking your assailant, I know my house far better in the dark than anyone else. I know exactly where the floor does and doesn't squeak, and I also know that you can successfully take on a bad guy in your own home.

Can't say any more on the subject.
 
"Can't say anymore on the subject."


Some er, personal plans of action are best kept to one's self.

It may be urban folklore, but I'm told that everything other than Instant Messaging that a person puts on the internet...is retrievable.


Kis
:rolleyes:
 
Originally posted by Kismet
"Can't say anymore on the subject."


Some er, personal plans of action are best kept to one's self.

It may be urban folklore, but I'm told that everything other than Instant Messaging that a person puts on the internet...is retrievable.


Kis
:rolleyes:

...and some statutes of limitations are longer than others:footinmou
 
Here's a hearty hope the DC Police are better at finding a sniper with little evidence, then they are in capturing a Congressman with a lot of evidence (before it disapeared) that he killed his intern.


munk

Sure enough, they are now telling people to stay in their homes.
 
Originally posted by swede79
Sorry, philthygeezer, I disagree.

I wouldn't alter a crime scene, but, life is worth living correctly. That means standing up for what you believe in and fighting evil. Even if a few good people go down fighting, they went down for a good cause, and will sleep well. Standing up for the right cause IS worth something, it's not just about property, it's about doing the right thing. If more people would do this, we'd have a lot less crime.

Well said.

It's not about property at all. It's about dignity and self-respect, which I will surrender to no one.

Those things that are worth living for are worth dying for.
 
I know it's long again, but please read this carefully as it will explain much of my philosophy. I consider this a very serious topic, and well worth serious discussion.

I am just going to do what Massad Ayoob told me to do. I got most of the aforementioned tactics from, "The seven deadly myths of self-defense."; an article he wrote long ago. The man has been an expert witness in many cases of 'self defense', and I trust his advice.

My honesty and integrity will not permit me to alter a scene after something goes down. To do that would be to lie and devalue my own integrity to the level of my intruder: I would lose my dignity and self respect. I will do what I must to protect life, knowing that I gave him 'fair chance' to run or attack me or mine. If the perp chose violence, he would be swiftly and unwaveringly met in kind. If he chose to run he may well have saved his own life.

The point is that I control the situation, not him. I make my stand and he has a fair choice: Leave and live or stay/attack and get hurt or even die.

Also, the last time I had a rifle in my hands, demanding nervously, "Who's there?", it was my brother coming home drunk at 3:30 AM. I thought he was already home, and the extended scuffling with the lock on the back door had woken me. I honestly thought someone was breaking in. Ever thought that you might be hunting a friend or family member in the middle of the night? Sometimes people/kids lose keys and come in through windows too. Or sneak in and out because of a curfew. Could you live with having ^@#(ed up that badly?

What if you get killed? Would you deprive your family of decades of your love (and income) so you can teach some idiot punk a lesson about trespassing and theft? After making sure your family was safe, why would you leave them behind to go out @$$hole-hunting? Why would you give a deranged addict a shot at killing you or yours? Why would you allow a moron a shot at fame and fortune at your expense? Why even the satisfaction of watching you go to jail? Remember that you are handing him the power to defend himself by attacking him. He can plead it before the courts, “I was only trying to save my life, your Honour… I just wanted that new TV…”. Papers will read, ‘Poor under-priveledged guy only wanted a TV when that mean knife collector attacked him with a wicked-looking assault-knife.’ Why hand him that golden defense? You could die after sneaking up on him, and he might still go free. All these results would be an indignity - don't give the jerk a chance to become dignified by your actions.

I believe in Justice and Truth, to be sure. I also believe in Mercy for fools and sinners. If they don't try to hurt me or others, I won't hurt them except to prevent those actions. If a guy with a bolt-action rifle walked by me on the street in Maryland right now, I would try to make a citizen's arrest. If he resisted, then I would do anything necessary for the preservation of life, even if it meant killing him so he couldn't walk away to kill someone else. Maryland police officers will have to make this same choice very soon I hope.

This is how I will stand up for what I believe in. My dignity and self-respect come from maintaining control, protecting life above all else, and even giving an idiot a chance to live. It is not cowardice, but it is not vengeance either: Do what is necessary to preserve life, and leave Justice to the people elected to handle it. This, to me, is living correctly and doing the right thing.

Hope this clarifies things a bit,

Phil
 
Plenty of food for thought and straight, no-BS advice in the manner for which Mas is known.

Anybody who keeps a handgun or intends to should read his books before anything else. "In the Gravest Extreme" should be required reading for every gun owner.

Andrew Lim
 
from Massay Ayoob

------------------------------------------------------

Do rural homeowners need guns for self-defense? Sometimes they do and sometimes they don’t, according to Ayoob’s experience, but those who did never really knew they would until it happened.

I’ve spent a lot of time running with big-city cops to learn lessons from them, but I’ve never been one myself. I was always a small town officer. I spent eight years at one growing town that was next to the state’s biggest city, but also had remote corners that were virtually Appalachian. The second was a genuine rural community a couple of towns over from the first one, where I did two years as sergeant and six as lieutenant. In the eleven years since, I’ve served a genuinely rural small municipality that would be even more blessedly quiet were it not for an interstate highway passing through it that’s a drug conduit from Montreal to the Boston and New York metroplexes. Moreover, I’ve done it all as a part-time cop with full arrest power and rank authority, a few hundred hours a year; what I do full time is teach this stuff.

This may be why Dave Duffy picked me to write this column, instead of a big city career cop. One of the big reasons people give up the city lifestyle or the ‘burbs for a “Backwoods Home” is their perception that they’ll be safe from crime.

Don’t bet on it. The bad guys in the cities you fled or want to flee figured out a long time ago that the “Thin Blue Line” is thinnest in the hinterlands. America is the society that is interconnected by Interstate highways. Most of us in rural law enforcement have very strong reason to believe that a lot of burglary and violent crime in our provinces is done by out of town city punks who don’t want to crap where they live. Sure, we have our indigenous country scumbags, but we can generally stay on top of them and take care of them expeditiously.

Let me tell you a true story from a long time ago. I was a young patrolman on the rural edge of that first community I told you about. I wrote about it in a book called In the Gravest Extreme when the memory was a lot fresher in my mind, so let me quote from that now.

The call came over the radio and I hit the lights and siren. A drug-crazed suspect had forced his way into a suburban home on the edge of the community I patrolled.

He was gone when we got there, but he had already left a residue of fear that would never go away. He’d had the wife down on her living room couch when the husband, hearing her screams, grabbed his Walther .32 auto from his night-table drawer and ran to her aid.

The guy heard him coming, and threw himself to his feet to take the husband. The guy was big. Then he saw the pistol…and got small.

He backed out the door screaming threats, covering his face like a vampire in a late-show movie cringing from a crucifix. By the time the husband had chased him out, his wife had run to the bedroom closet and fetched the loaded 12-gauge. As the druggie stood on the lawn screaming obscene threats at the homeowner, the latter fired a round of birdshot into the air, and the attacker fled into the woods.

During the hours that followed, as I and a contingent of brother officers stalked the suspect through the woods, I reflected on the value of that little .32 automatic in that man’s night-table drawer. We’d had a decent response time—we were on the scene less than a minute after getting the hysterical phone call—but as I crept through the pitch-black woods that night, listening to the sound of the bloodhounds, I couldn’t help but wonder what might have happened if he hadn’t had that little gun. I admit, I didn’t reflect on it too much at the time, because I was more preoccupied with the sounds and movements around me as I still-hunted the brush with a Kel-Lite flashlight going on-and-off in one hand, and a Colt .45 automatic in the other. But I knew damn well that without the little .32, we might not have gotten the call until it was too late.

Later that night, when the thing was (bloodlessly) ended, that man came up to me and said, “Officer, my wife is afraid they’re going to arrest me for threatening him with a gun. They aren’t, are they?”

I put my hand on the guy’s shoulder. I told him he wouldn’t be arrested. I told him to come in to the police station Monday morning and see about getting a “carry” pistol permit. And then I gave him the address of a friend of mine who runs a police equipment shop, and promised him a discount on something bigger than a .32 automatic. Somewhere in between came a lecture on trusting the frail hook-and-eye lock on his screen door.

That was then. This is now. Little has changed.

The citizen in that incident was about my age, then. With all the intervening years, he could have died of old age. I hope not. But if he is gone, I hope it was old age. An old age the loaded guns he kept where he and his wife could reach them bought for them both.

The overwhelming majority of encounters between armed citizens and violent criminals end just that way, whether in the depths of the inner city or in the wilderness. Perpetrator begins to attack. Perpetrator sees gun pointing at him. Perpetrator suddenly decides that he has made a terrible mistake, and is about to die from what I’ve come to call “sudden and acute failure of the victim selection process.” Perpetrator either flees or surrenders. End of story. Most of the time. Sometimes, the predator is so obsessed or enraged, so drugged out or drunk, or just so unbelievably stupid that he continues the attack. When this happens, the citizen/victim has no choice but to steady the gun and pull the trigger. This is the moment at which you will need not only the wherewithal to do what needs to be done, but the skill and familiarity with the firearm to allow you to do so.


The great defensive handgun expert Jeff Cooper once said that combat shooting training and practice was akin to lifeboat drills on an ocean liner. It was, one hoped, the last skill you would ever have to employ during your journey. But, if you did need it, it would be a skill you needed desperately.

Let’s go back for a minute to the story I recounted earlier, from the 1970s. I’m proud to say that the police response time was fast for a metropolitan department, let alone for a small community. Quick question, though: in your now or future backwoods home, how long will it take the police to respond once you call them from your remote location? And go back to that true story one more time: if that peaceful rural home had not been armed, would either the husband or the wife have been able to make the call at all?

About the time you read this, two teenage males in a community very close to the one my department serves will go on trial for the murder of a respected middle-aged couple who lived in a somewhat remote home. Neither was able to access a gun to prevent being brutally butchered by assailants armed with combat knives. They thought they lived in a safe place where people didn’t need guns, right up until they were hacked to death in a bloodbath that exceeded the “Clockwork Orange” movie.


Owning and responsibly keeping a firearm, and knowing how and when to use it defensively if you must, is your choice. But so is participating in the lifeboat drills when you’re on that ocean cruise. The ones who needed the lifeboat were always glad they spent the time preparing. The ones who practiced and didn’t need it still achieved peace of mind.

But, as always, the choice is yours.

------------------------------------------------------

http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob72.html
 
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A reader named Molly e-mailed a note to the office of BHM asking what the editor thought of Attorney General Ashcroft’s recent affirmation of the Second Amendment as an individual right rather than an assurance of a state’s right to organize a militia. She also asked specifically how I felt about it.

Well, Molly, I can’t speak for Dave Duffy and John Silviera and the rest of the crew, though I strongly suspect that they were as delighted with it as I was. When I heard the news “I would have done two cartwheels and a backflip,” as the saying goes, if I wasn’t too old and stiff.

As you might imagine, the reaction was not the same in the gun-banning industry. (Yes, I use the term “industry” advisedly. It is unlikely that anyone but Handgun Control Incorporated, so bankrupt of public credibility that it recently re-named itself, would have paid Sarah Brady her hefty six-figure salary to go around giving boring speeches laced with long-discredited propaganda. Only the most greedy of plaintiffs’ lawyers would have brought the legally moronic liability actions against gun industries by the cities.) The anti-gunners screamed for the head of John Ashcroft, demanding everything from firing to disbarment, because he dared to undermine the work of the Clinton Administration that was intended to put the firearms industry out of business and begin the disarming of the citizenry in earnest.

Au contraire. What John Ashcroft did was what his predecessor Janet Reno lacked the legal acumen and/or judicial temperament and/or intellectual honesty to do: he correctly applied the Constitution and the Bill of Rights that are the foundational documents for the nation’s chief interpreter of law. For more than a decade, the overwhelming majority of studies of Second Amendment issues that emanated from competent, impartial sources had upheld the view that the Second Amendment is an individual right rather than a state’s right.
Consider the following

History: The disarming of the citizenry has always been the mark of the totalitarian government. From the asagai-wielding warriors of Shaka Zulu to the yeomen of England to the Minutemen of the fledgling United States to the citizen-soldiers of Switzerland, the armed citizen has always been a constant, indispensable ingredient to a free country.

Obvious legislative intent: When a law is interpreted later, by the public or by the highest appellate courts, one factor that must be considered is obvious legislative intent. That is, what would any reasonable, prudent, unprejudiced observer who came along later conclude was the intent of the lawmakers in making this particular thing the rule of the land?

Any approach to obvious legislative intent applied to the Second Amendment has to come down in favor of it being an individual right. If one reads the entire document, every single element in the Bill of Rights speaks to the rights of each individual citizen. This document is one of the most thoroughly planned and carefully crafted in the history of the collective human experience. Are we to assume that the Framers tossed in an element of state’s rights as an afterthought? Why, then, was it second on the list instead of last? Or should we assume that this braintrust of the most gifted, most eloquent, most insightful authorities of their time never noticed that state militias would come under states’ rights and not individual rights?

Such incongruity, such an over-reach of the imagination, simply boggles any logical and prudent mind. The obvious legislative intent is, well, obvious. Simply put, the greatest American intellects of the time knew that the citizen is the state, and knew also that the state exists for the citizen more than the citizen exists for the state.

We must never forget that every single patriot of the American Revolution was a citizen of a British colony before the excesses of the British government forced him to pick up his rifle and fight for independence. In the last analysis, it could be effectively argued that all the “colonists” wanted were the same rights as an Englishman in Old Blighty. At the time, that included the right of the individual to bear arms. Remember that the oft-quoted Draconian gun laws of England were a phenomenon of the 20th century; in the time the Bill of Rights was drafted, no citizen was more free to own the weapons of the King’s soldiers than the citizen of England.

Look to the “source documents:” History shows us that those who wrote the Bill of Rights pored scrupulously over the constitutions of each of the original thirteen states. It was from these sources that the often-mentioned rights to possess arms were drawn by those who wrote the Amendments to the Constitution of the United States. A great many of them made it abundantly clear that the right of the citizen to protect himself and his family, individually, was at the core of the right to keep and bear arms. The ability of that citizen to become a citizen soldier and bear those arms in defense of his state was simply one more reason why the right to keep and bear arms served the common good of a free state.

Finally, there is the most logical answer, the short sound-bite answer that hits the hardest and is absolutely irrefutable. When someone with a non-existent to superficial understanding of constitutional law tells you that the Second Amendment speaks only to the National Guard (which did not even exist until long, long after the Bill of Rights went into effect), remind them of the following: At the time of the American Revolution, a “National Guard” would have been Tories loyal to King George.

The price they had paid for their freedom—in blood, in treasure, and in grief—had to still weigh heavy in the hearts of those who framed the Bill of Rights. Can anyone seriously believe that they would put secondmost on their list of That Which Would Keep Us Free, a mechanism that would have given indigenous occupying forces to the next tyrannical enemy?

As one of the Patriots said of another matter, “Forbid it, Almighty God!”

The bottom line is, there is simply no logical argument to be made for a state’s right to raise a militia being inserted into a manifesto of individual citizens’ rights.

Relationships to other individual rights: What is that oft-quoted phrase? Ah, yes: “the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.”

Without the wherewithal to defend life itself, it doesn’t take a philosopher to figure out that liberty and the pursuit of happiness (and obviously life itself) can be taken away from the helpless by the empowered. The gun has historically been an equalizer. Today the buzzword is “force multiplier.”

You are a black man in Michigan, with a howling mob of white racists outside who want to destroy your home and lynch you. Can you stop them with your bare hands? No. Can you stop them with a gun? Yes … and, as the Michigan case showed early in the 20th Century, you will be acquitted by a jury of your peers.

You are a woman attacked by a gang of vicious young rapists in a public park. Can you stop them with your bare hands? No. In the latter half of the 20th Century in New York City, the victim of the infamous “wilding” incident learned this the hard way, and remains physically brain-damaged from her ordeal in addition to the shattering emotional effect of the gang rape. Could this woman have protected herself if she’d had the same wherewithal as the armed citizen in Michigan?

Well, let’s just say her chances would have been a helluva lot better. Even when you don’t have enough bullets to shoot every member of the murderous, rapacious mob, you certainly have enough to shoot the leaders, and natural selection being what it is, this has a remarkably persuasive effect on leaders of mobs.

In Stephen King’s book, Stand Alone, later made into a movie, a group of young boys are about to be savagely mauled by a gang of man-size teenage delinquents. As the leader of the criminal gang prepares to do extreme violence, one of the boys withdraws from his backpack his father’s .45 automatic, which the boy has taken for protection on the long wilderness trek that is the core of the book. The gang leader sneers and asks the youth if he thinks he can shoot every member of the gang.

The boy resolutely aims the pistol and gives a classic reply: “No, Ace. Just you.”

It was one of that classic movie moments that did what cinema should do more often: “Art imitates life.” Studies from the California Attorney General’s Office to the work of eminent criminologist Gary Kleck to the absolutely unassailable work of Professor John Lott show that when criminal predators close in on innocent victims, and the innocent victims draw guns, the criminals back off most of the time without blood being spilled.

It is a fundamental law of mammalian nature: predators do not routinely attack other creatures that have powerful fangs and claws of their own. They sometimes do so, but only out of absolute desperation, or in turf wars, or when in the mind-bending rut of the mating season. This means that if you don’t deny food to the starving, don’t try to sell drugs in the territory of the Bloods or the Crips, and don’t hit on that pretty girl hanging on the arm of that big guy wearing Hell’s Angels colors, you have probably narrowed your assailant profile down to criminals seeking targets of opportunity. A criminal seeking a target of opportunity will historically back off from his assault when he realizes he has picked the wrong victim. If he doesn’t back off, well, Darwin’s Law of Natural Selection will take its course once again. I’ve come to call it, “Cause of death: sudden and acute failure of the victim selection process.”

Lord Blackstone, the greatest of all our commentators on the Common Law, said that self-defense was the highest of all human rights. This was understood by the framers of the Colonial States’ constitutions. They made it very clear that the right of the individual to protect himself and his family from unlawful criminal assault—in his home or in public, anytime, anyplace, anywhere—was at the core of the individual citizen’s Right To Keep And Bear Arms.

A matter of logic: Bring it all together. John Ashcroft was right. That overwhelming aggregate of Constitutional Law scholars was right. George W. Bush, the man who appointed John Ashcroft Attorney General of the United States, was right. The Second Amendment guarantees an individual right, not a collective one.

The constitutions of each of the individual Thirteen Colonies, long before they United as States, made it overwhelmingly clear that the right to own guns was a citizen’s right, not a state’s right.

Working with these colonial constitutions as foundational documents, the Framers of the Bill of Rights obviously agreed. There is no other logical conclusion but that they found it a key right to each human component of a free society. Indeed, that they considered it so important that they made it second on their long list of imperative individual rights, second only to free speech.

There is no reason to believe that what may be the ultimate document of individual human rights somehow had a state’s rights clause thrown in. Not logically, not historically, not legally.

It stretches believability past the breaking point to believe that a foundational document of individual human rights would include a clause that would allow a tyrannical government that had taken over a free people to command a tyrannical reserve military force within the very breast of America.

So, let me complete this long answer to Molly’s question. What I think of John Ashcroft’s opinion, the official opinion of the Office of the Attorney General of the United States, that the Second Amendment is an individual right, is this:

It’s a good opinion. It’s the right opinion. Anyone who says otherwise insults your intelligence, and mine, and that of a very long history of thinking Americans that goes back all the way to the Framers of the Bill of Rights itself. And, indeed, back beyond that.


John Ashcroft’s opinion affirms the “obvious legislative intent” of those who wrote the Second Amendment. That obvious legislative intent was one that lies at the very core of what we call Justice: the protection of the innocent from evil.

And, as Daniel Webster said, “Justice is the highest concern of Man on Earth.”
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http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob77.html
 
There is no one thing I disagree with Ayoob about. Yet he and I are on opposite ends of the approach to self defense.

Ayoob implicitly suggests through his writing that without training and preparation you may be doomed. Yet the facts say that of 2 million defensive uses of a firearms every year in the US few among that number know who the hell Ayoob is.

You do not need training to exercise a constitutional right. There is within the gun community a division, one approach suggests, much like the gun banners, that without training you are dangerous and on your way to prison. Make no mistake, people do get sent to prison in unfortunate circumstances for using a weapon; but they are the rare exception. Ayoob brings out the paranoia that without his or some other's 'expert' approach you are lost, and such is not the case.


Of course I want everyone to know how and when to use a gun. But Castle clauses specifically give the benefit of the doubt to the citizen in his home. Ayoob and others erode that unintentially. He is a company man and indirectly aides the class sytem of firearms ownership. With his help and other well intentioned persons, soon you will be unable to use a firearm without his training, storage locks, insurance provisions etc.

It is amazing how men can pick up a firearm and understand it is deadly force and you should not use it unless you have to. Ayoob puts the cart before the horse.

My opinion. He aides the elitists and the government. If I lived in a paranoid anti gun area I would be more inclined to be 'ayoobed'. ( and I have)
munk
 
Know what a 'safe' room is? That's a room, selected because of location, reinforced, and with a phone, that becomes the area of your last stand. Ayoob teaches us to select a safe room and know what to do when you are there. So far so good.

In Britain you also select a 'safe' room, that being any room where you can put distance between yourself and the intruder. If he still comes, you jump out the window, as you are not allowed to use force for mere burglary. (and you may not be able physically capable of using a comparable measure to the amount the intruder exerts.)

Ayoob is 100% in that shooting someone in the US who is busy breaking into the area of your last retreat almost gives you complete exoneration.

Why should you need exoneration? He's in your home. Did you really spend time rounding up your children and wife while a man was in your home?
Ayoob unconsciously aides the errosion of our rights. And I've picked a safe room before. It is a good idea. But how long before Ayoob's safe room becomes very much like the one in Britain?

Probably just nitpicking. But there is something I do not like about Ayoob and his Clan. Look at Phil; he's written very well. Look at Venom, he wants the book to be mandatory reading.

How many of you would like to pass a Federal course before owning a firearm? If human beings are so incapable of defending themselves with firearms, and avoiding prison while doing so, why are so many millions of Americans using them with little training and thwarting crime?

Now, this is a ecletic audience, if I've spelled that right. Many of you are weapons experts. I expect this level of understanding from you. Don't fall into the pitfall of thinking without so and so's training you can't use a gun, can't have free speech, or the right to assembly. You might was well wait for the Government to give you free cheese.

munk
 
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