What is the attraction of s30v and family of steels?

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kickplate69

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Jan 26, 2011
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Ok I don't have an agenda, I just wondered what is so great about these steels. They are more expensive than ats 34(stainless, IIRC), and high carbons like D2 and 1095, but according to a list of steels (an AG Russel list i found from you guys) the s30v and some of its close kin seem to have the same hardness range as the lesser expensive steels.
Believe me, Im not gonna knock someone's steel choice for an expensive steel, I am just trying to learn something that I don't know much about.
Thanks
 
I think the CPM steels are "cleaner", "finer"..... It's the process that makes them, that makes them cool.

IMHO.
 
There's more to a steel's performance than just hardenability. The main attraction of S30V isn't that it does any one thing better than every other steel out there, but rather that, when properly heat-treated, it's a very well-rounded steel, offering good wear resistance, toughness (resistance to deformation), resistance to corrosion, and so forth. In comparison to ATS-34, for instance, even if both can attain the same hardness, S30V will have substantially better toughness and somewhat better wear resistance.
 
I don't own any sv30 or "family" steels as you put it.

But it is important to note that the level of hardness is not any indicator of overall performance. Two identical steels, taken to exactly the same hardness level, but using different heat treat methods (IE longer soak, quicker quench etc) will perform differently even though both are at the same harness, and come from the same billet of steel.

You can take those pieces of steel, both with identical hardness and one will perform well, and the other not as well.

Different steels will have the same hardness, but completely different levels of edge retention, lateral strength, resistance to chipping, impact resistance, and wear resistance etc.

Take two high performance pieces of steel, give them the identical heat treat and temper process (same time soak at temp, same tempering temp and time) then take one piece and give it a cryo treatment (if appropriate for the steel), then the cryo'ed piece will perform even better.
 
My guess? Local availability and ease of heat treatment. Even if ATS-34 performs better, it's a japanese steel and I would assume there are import costs to consider. I would think some local S30V available right here in the U.S. of A would be cheaper to buy in bulk.

And while a good cryo treatment is something we would like in all our steels, I don't believe it's cost effective to do so in a large production scale. A cheaper steel with a top notch heat treatment with cryo treatment and triple temper might very well end up costing more than a more expensive steel with the standard heat treatment and single temper.

In any case, S30V seems like a good all-rounder and is something I would be glad to have after using cheap "ice hardened" supermarket cutlery. I also have yet to manage to stain the thing, and I'm pretty harsh in that regard on my knives.
 
s30 was really the 1st decent stainless to come down the pike , excluding the 60v, 90v, 110v etcetera. ats34 & 154 cm never did it for me. i do'nt consider s30 to be a super steel but for one of the alphabet alloys it does a decent performance. really at rockwell 60 it will satisfy most people that unlike myself are'nt steel nuts.---dennis
 
kickplate69 said:
Ok I don't have an agenda, I just wondered what is so great about these steels. They are more expensive than ats 34(stainless, IIRC), and high carbons like D2 and 1095, but according to a list of steels (an AG Russel list i found from you guys) the s30v and some of its close kin seem to have the same hardness range as the lesser expensive steels.
Believe me, Im not gonna knock someone's steel choice for an expensive steel, I am just trying to learn something that I don't know much about.
Thanks
Click to expand...

I think industry just made easy bucks on CPM steel reputation build by really magnificent CPM 440V (CPM S60V). That steel was exceptional especially when it was just introduced first. That steel really made difference and also lift price quite a bit. Then "replacement" was introduced - CPM S30V for same price, which was very cheap for manufacturers $2/lb. and much less carbides - much less abrasive resistant, so coast of manufacturing was also quite lower. Reputation for CPM 44V was already high and so CPM S30V, which were pushed by industry quite hard as "replacement" for CPM 440V which is "even better" because it is "tougher", had quite a good acceptance. It take several years to realize that this is not as good as CPM 440V was and only last year CATRA test were finally published with performance for CPM S30V almost twice lower then performance of CPM 440V.

So to me CPM S30V is not a good steel but a quite valuable lesson for consumers.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
I started to like it because some of the folding knives I had were made of it and it works well - sharpens up nice and crisp. Then I had a fixed blade made up in it and that was me sold.
 
Hardness does not equal edge retention. It helps, but carbides are really important for keeping the edge. So even if it's just as hard as a cheaper steel, it will hold an edge longer. And the powdered steel method allows them to more evenly distribute finer carbides, which adds even more to performance. But yes, 154CM will give you almost as much performance for a lower price.
 
Tsujigiri said:
Hardness does not equal edge retention. It helps, but carbides are really important for keeping the edge. So even if it's just as hard as a cheaper steel, it will hold an edge longer. And the powdered steel method allows them to more evenly distribute finer carbides, which adds even more to performance. But yes, 154CM will give you almost as much performance for a lower price.
Click to expand...

This is popular theory, but actual edge holding for CPM S30V is lower that "cheaper" steel has. In CPM 440V yes performance was way better then common steel of that era, but composition was different than in CPM S30V. CPM S30V does not hold edge well, which is noticed by many real users as well non official tests and official CATRA tests.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
kickplate69 said:
Ok I don't have an agenda, I just wondered what is so great about these steels. They are more expensive than ats 34(stainless, IIRC), and high carbons like D2 and 1095, but according to a list of steels (an AG Russel list i found from you guys) the s30v and some of its close kin seem to have the same hardness range as the lesser expensive steels.
Believe me, Im not gonna knock someone's steel choice for an expensive steel, I am just trying to learn something that I don't know much about.
Thanks
Click to expand...

the price of a knife is more than just the steel used in the blade. blade steel is just one piece of the puzzle. a steel's hardness is also just one piece of it's overall performance puzzle. properly heat treated and hardened S30V will give you good overall performance. even though you'll find other steels with the same hardness, S30V does well in the wear resistance department because it has a pretty high vanadium content (4%).
 
I have some knives in S30V. I haven't used it extensively to know how it really performs, but so far it seems to be good as a favorite of mine - VG10, that I haved used quite a lot.

Hardness is just one parameter in the equation, I've used and abused a LOT titanium knives with 45-47 HRC (yes, you can laugh... but I laugh louder because if you're laughing probably you've never used it).
 
What's all the fuss about? Breaking limits, new technology, and doing things that were previously impossible.
Take the formula for CPM S90V, melt it down and pour it into a mold. What you end up with is a block of metal that has more in common with cast iron than steel. It would probably make a good fry pan, but would be terrible in a knife.
The problem is that if you add too much of certain elements (like carbon) it will clump together as the mixture cools, and you end up with lumps of elements rather than an even mixture throughout.
Take the same formula, turn it straight from molten metal into a powder, then hot press it into a bar, and you have one of the marvels of modern engineering.
Since everything is evenly mixed when it is liquid, every grain of powder contains the same mix, and the size of your "clumps" is limited to the size of the grains of powder.

Everyone wants a knife that will hold its edge forever, and powder metallurgy enables the production of alloys that are extremely wear resistant and that hold an edge for a very long time (please note that there are many different factors in edge retention, including you. It is a very broad term). Unfortunately we still don't see these alloys used very often. Why? The massive increase in wear resistance means that conventional factory grinders are no longer good enough.
Spyderco was the first to actually attempt to grind S90V on a production scale using special grinders, and remain one of the only companies willing to do so regularly. Steel with significantly better wear resistance is possible, but no grinder exists that could shape it quickly and efficiently enough for a production company.

And so we have the dichotomy of wear resistance and grindability. Knife buyers want wear resistance and knife makers want grindability. Everyone could be making knives out of CPM S90V, but it would require extra equipment and hassle in heat treating. CPM S30V was developed after S60V and S90V as a way to make a steel type that could be processed using normal equipment but still exhibit some of the improvements available with powder metallurgy.
 
Last edited:
Joshua J. said:
What's all the fuss about? Breaking limits, new technology, and doing things that were previously impossible.
Take the formula for CPM S90V, melt it down and pour it into a mold. What you end up with is a block of metal that has more in common with cast iron than steel. It would probably make a good fry pan, but would be terrible in a knife.
The problem is that if you add too much of certain elements (like carbon) it will clump together as the mixture cools, and you end up with lumps of elements rather than an even mixture throughout.
Take the same formula, turn it straight from molten metal into a powder, then hot press it into a bar, and you have one of the marvels of modern engineering.
Since everything is evenly mixed when it is liquid, every grain of powder contains the same mix, and the size of your "clumps" is limited to the size of the grains of powder.

Everyone wants a knife that will hold its edge forever, and powder metallurgy enables the production of alloys that are extremely wear resistant and that hold an edge for a very long time (please note that there are many different factors in edge retention, including you. It is a very broad term). Unfortunately we still don't see these alloys used very often. Why? The massive increase in wear resistance means that conventional factory grinders are no longer good enough.
Spyderco was the first to actually attempt to grind S90V on a production scale using special grinders, and remain one of the only companies willing to do so regularly. Steel with significantly better wear resistance is possible, but no grinder exists that could shape it quickly and efficiently enough for a production company.

And so we have the dichotomy of wear resistance and grindability. Knife buyers want wear resistance and knife makers want grindability. Everyone could be making knives out of CPM S90V, but it would require extra equipment and hassle in heat treating. CPM S30V was developed after S60V and S90V as a way to make a steel type that could be processed using normal equipment but still exhibit some of the improvements available with powder metallurgy.
Click to expand...

And I thought it was a conspiracy....;)
 
I hope others continue to respond, Thanks. I carefully read every response and thank you for your earned insights. Great info. I guess I default to "hardness" because it is always listed on these charts, but apparently there is always more to every story.
 
Joshua J. said:
What's all the fuss about? Breaking limits, new technology, and doing things that were previously impossible.
Take the formula for CPM S90V, melt it down and pour it into a mold. What you end up with is a block of metal that has more in common with cast iron than steel. It would probably make a good fry pan, but would be terrible in a knife.
The problem is that if you add too much of certain elements (like carbon) it will clump together as the mixture cools, and you end up with lumps of elements rather than an even mixture throughout.
Take the same formula, turn it straight from molten metal into a powder, then hot press it into a bar, and you have one of the marvels of modern engineering.
Since everything is evenly mixed when it is liquid, every grain of powder contains the same mix, and the size of your "clumps" is limited to the size of the grains of powder.

Everyone wants a knife that will hold its edge forever, and powder metallurgy enables the production of alloys that are extremely wear resistant and that hold an edge for a very long time (please note that there are many different factors in edge retention, including you. It is a very broad term). Unfortunately we still don't see these alloys used very often. Why? The massive increase in wear resistance means that conventional factory grinders are no longer good enough.
Spyderco was the first to actually attempt to grind S90V on a production scale using special grinders, and remain one of the only companies willing to do so regularly. Steel with significantly better wear resistance is possible, but no grinder exists that could shape it quickly and efficiently enough for a production company just to claim that this is "replacement" for CPM 440V.

And so we have the dichotomy of wear resistance and grindability. Knife buyers want wear resistance and knife makers want grindability. Everyone could be making knives out of CPM S90V, but it would require extra equipment and hassle in heat treating. CPM S30V was developed after S60V and S90V as a way to make a steel type that could be processed using normal equipment but still exhibit some of the improvements available with powder metallurgy.
Click to expand...

After all those wonders on modern technology it is end results what actually counts. All those powder miracle in result produce steel with does not perform better. At least if we are talking about CPM S30V and CPM S90V. Let not mix together advanced cooking equipment and taste of result. It is in deed quite advanced technology invented while ago in Soviet Union, but this is only what differs CPM S30V from much cheaper steels - CPM S30V does not perform better! How can we expect it perform better just because it was made using PM metallurgy?

Of course CPM 440V was different at it's time as well as now PM steels ZDP-189 and CTS-XHP - they really does perform, but CPM S30V is very different story. It was desingned to be PM and to be cheap for manufacturing with kind of acceptable performance.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
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