What is the attraction of s30v and family of steels?

[Noctis3880]

I hope others continue to respond, Thanks. I carefully read every response and thank you for your earned insights. Great info. I guess I default to "hardness" because it is always listed on these charts, but apparently there is always more to every story.

Unfortunately, for most makers, hardness is just about the only information available, and sometimes you won't get even that much. They won't mention what kind of heat treat they used or if they cryo harden or triple temper. Mostly for S30V I look for any mention of a Bos heat treatment. But mostly I have to guess on generalization of the steel alone, as I can't tell if Benchmade's M390 is better than Kershaw's M390 without using both knives personally, and I just don't have the coin for both.

However, the one thing I typically find I can be assured of is that a custom maker's heat treated steel will almost always be "better"(usually in terms of edge retention) than a production knife in the same steel.

 

[crom]

I personally believe it's the "cool" factor for MOST people. I know some people here will really get their cut on and test the stuff but I think it's the gadget factor for the masses. "Hey, I got the new 4g Iphone, because the 3g was SO last month!" I would rather have a steel I can resharpen on conventional stones & ceramics easily, than one that takes diamond hones to bring the edge back. At some point my BS detector goes off with the hype.

 

[Noctis3880]

I personally believe it's the "cool" factor for MOST people. I know some people here will really get their cut on and test the stuff but I think it's the gadget factor for the masses. "Hey, I got the new 4g Iphone, because the 3g was SO last month!" I would rather have a steel I can resharpen on conventional stones & ceramics easily, than one that takes diamond hones to bring the edge back. At some point my BS detector goes off with the hype.

Have you actually tried the steels yourself? Though admittedly, ease of sharpening is a valid point to consider when choosing a steel. With steels like CTS-XHP that has softer chromium carbides, it's easier to sharpen on Aluminum Oxide waterstones and yet still holds an edge longer than S30V, it's a win-win combo for most people. For me however, it only takes about half an hour to reprofile S90V to a lower bevel and mirror polish the entire edge. I suspect simply raising a burr on a dull edge and re-polishing to a hair splitting edge would take me no longer than 10 minutes. Given how little effort it takes me to maintain such a steel, I'd gladly go for it to have an edge that lasts a bit longer.

It's also worth mentioning that S30V is a good step up in terms of corrosion resistance according to the datasheet(and CTS-XHP is said to have 440C level of corrosion resistance):
http://faq.customtacticals.com/datasheets/s30v.pdf

 

[Ankerson]

I personally believe it's the "cool" factor for MOST people. I know some people here will really get their cut on and test the stuff but I think it's the gadget factor for the masses. "Hey, I got the new 4g Iphone, because the 3g was SO last month!" I would rather have a steel I can resharpen on conventional stones & ceramics easily, than one that takes diamond hones to bring the edge back. At some point my BS detector goes off with the hype.

Nothing like cutting down some boxes and have the blade be butter knife dull when you are done, believe me it's not all hype although there is some with everything people tend to use.

Depends on how much you use your knives and for what.

Most people can get away with using an SAK or 4116 Krupp, or AUS-6 if they really don't do much real cutting.

S30V is a very good all around steel that has good edge retention and corrostion resistance, it doesn't do anything the best, but it does it all good.

The other so called S steels S90V, S110V, S125V are even more corrostion resistant and wear resistant than S30V.

Most of these steels really aren't NEW, they have been around for a long time, the only difference is that someone found they are good for making knives out of.

 

[Buck_110]

I think industry just made easy bucks on CPM steel reputation...

No doubt about it. New powder steels are announced on an almost monthly basis. Meanwhile, the last new one, which has debuted no more than two months ago, is thrown to the curb. Most have no staying power, and their upper limits are usually never realized because it's on to the next steel of the month. They're not around long enough to be tweaked to perfection.

After all those wonders on modern technology it is end results what actually counts. All those powder miracle in result produce steel with does not perform better.

They don't have to actually perform better. The perception that they will is enough. Purchases are based on figures which cannot be confirmed or denied. The promise of light saber characteristics coupled with small or limited production is enough to prompt strong sales.

I personally believe it's the "cool" factor for MOST people. I know some people here will really get their cut on and test the stuff but I think it's the gadget factor for the masses.

Today, owning the latest trumps owning the greatest. To each, their own. That's what makes this big blue marble spin.

 

[Noctis3880]

No doubt about it. New powder steels are announced on an almost monthly basis. Meanwhile, the last new one, which has debuted no more than two months ago, is thrown to the curb. Most have no staying power, and their upper limits are usually never realized because it's on to the next steel of the month. They're not around long enough to be tweaked to perfection.

And which ones in particular have no staying power? I know S125V and S150V were "thrown to the curb" because they were too difficult to work. No point in having a lightsaber if you need the power output of a nuclear reactor to turn it on:thumbdn:.

They don't have to actually perform better. The perception that they will is enough. Purchases are based on figures which cannot be confirmed or denied. The promise of light saber characteristics coupled with small or limited production is enough to prompt strong sales.

Before you spout any other uneducated remarks, I want to remind everyone that aside from very few steels, most of these steels aren't designed for knives. A lot of them are meant for plastics molding, they do great for what they're designed for, and I defy you to prove otherwise. The perception that a plastics molding steel will do well for knives will not significantly boost sales given that knife makers are not their biggest source of sales.

Today, owning the latest trumps owning the greatest. To each, their own. That's what makes this big blue marble spin.

I think the several hundred custom makers still using CPM154 when all these other "super steels" are available would disagree with you.

 

[Buck_110]

And which ones in particular have no staying power? I know S125V and S150V were "thrown to the curb" because they were too difficult to work. No point in having a lightsaber if you need the power output of a nuclear reactor to turn it on:thumbdn:.

How many knives are currently produced with two of the most highly vaunted powder blade steels, CPM S60V and CPM S90V?

Before you spout any other uneducated remarks, I want to remind everyone that aside from very few steels, most of these steels aren't designed for knives. A lot of them are meant for plastics molding, they do great for what they're designed for, and I defy you to prove otherwise. The perception that a plastics molding steel will do well for knives will not significantly boost sales given that knife makers are not their biggest source of sales.

You pretty much summed up the reason yourself: "...most of these steels aren't designed for knives."

I think the several hundred custom makers still using CPM154 when all these other "super steels" are available would disagree with you.

I have no doubt they do. While CPM 154 has staying power, how many people purchase this steel over a newly introduced powder; despite its longer, and more proven history? Why do so many limited production runs of newly introduced powder steel knives sell out with pre-orders? It's because owning the latest is what it's all about for most people.

 

[Buck_110]

It's also worth mentioning that S30V is a good step up in terms of corrosion resistance according to the datasheet(and CTS-XHP is said to have 440C level of corrosion resistance):
http://faq.customtacticals.com/datasheets/s30v.pdf

These are foundry numbers for stock. Actual corrosion resistance will ultimately lie in the hands of each individual manufacturer/maker. Accurate data is best collected from finished products. A poor heat-treatment will result in less corrosion resistance than stated foundry numbers. Some manufacturers, depending on what magic they are(or not) able to impart, can exceed, be on par with, or fall short of stated numbers. Numbers generated from individual knives are the only ones which account for valid data.

 

[Noctis3880]

How many knives are currently produced with two of the most highly vaunted powder blade steels, CPM S60V and CPM S90V?

I see you haven't read the part where I said, "they were too difficult to work". Same reason why knife manufacturers won't use them. Once the vanadium content goes over 4%, it becomes exponentially more difficult to grind in mass production. Even CPM-M4 is pushing it(another highly vaunted powder steel and in full production in the Spyderco Gayle Bradley and Benchmade 760 LfTi).

A more fair question would be "how many knives in current production have over 4% vanadium content in the blade steels?"

You pretty much summed up the reason yourself: "...most of these steels aren't designed for knives."

The ones designed specifically for knives need to be easier to sharpen and grind, and thus less wear resistant and have less edge retention(depending on what you're cutting, I'm sure 440C will last just as long as S90V cutting tofu and saran wrap).

I have no doubt they do. While CPM 154 has staying power, how many people purchase this steel over a newly introduced powder; despite its longer, and more proven history? Why do so many limited production runs of newly introduced powder steel knives sell out with pre-orders? It's because owning the latest is what it's all about for most people.

I'm pretty sure the people who managed to get their hands on an Andrew Demko AD-10 are pretty happy with their CPM154 steel, as well as the Tim Galyean Pro Series Large Lahar, the Nirk Tighe in BG-42, Klotzli Knives in ATS-34, and(something that still boggles my mind to this day) any of Emerson's knives in non-powder 154CM(he even makes his customs out of it).

Limited runs typically sell out because they're limited. It could be a mini-AFCK in damasteel(nothing new or powdered about it), a Manix in all the different colors of the rainbow in 154CM, it could be an orange Izula in 1095, it could be an orange Spyderco Bill Moran in VG-10, and I think even the BG-42 versions of the Sebenza are more sought after by some than the S30V versions.

As for the attraction, well, it looks damn good when it's shiny:thumbup::

I confess that I'm one of those said steel-obsessed junkies looking for the greatest(but not necessarily the latest). I rejected CTS-XHP due to its overly large "teeth" and insufficient corrosion resistance. CPM-M4 wouldn't last a day in my pocket without rusting on me, and I wouldn't dream of touching Rex 121, 10V, or 15V for the same reason. And in spite of my obsession, my cord-wrapped Pink Izula in 1095 remains my fixed blade of choice(rust isn't as big of an issue thanks to the coating and mirror polished edge).

Even then, steel is at best only half the consideration for me. I haven't touched my 710-1 in M390 because I was sick of the sandpaper G10 texture(also didn't feel balanced). And I would never buy the mini-griptilian in M390 because of the "cheap" feeling handles. My 0350CB is also has the same old sandpaper texture. And I don't care if the blade is made of diamond, I'm not touching the knife if the handles are like the production American Lawman(which eats up all of my pockets). And I already sold off my BM 755 MPR in M390 because it was so fat and short and the blade shape couldn't cut for crap.

 

[Buck_110]

I see you haven't read the part where I said, "they were too difficult to work".

That's not true. You asked for examples of which steels had no staying power besides the ones you listed. I stated CPM S60V and CPM S90V.

And which ones in particular have no staying power? I know S125V and S150V were "thrown to the curb" because they were too difficult to work.

I rejected CTS-XHP due to its overly large "teeth" and insufficient corrosion resistance.

Despite who does the heat-treatment on CTS-XHP, I believe it'll rust no matter what. There's not enough vanadium(or other carbide-former) to leave enough free chromium to form an adequate passivation layer.

 

[JNewell]

S90V has no staying power? That's funny, I just bought a couple of new knives with S90V blades earlier this year. Maybe they're CPM-Mystical Vaporware rather than S90V. Please don't confuse "common" with "staying power."

That's not true. You asked for examples of which steels had no staying power besides the ones you listed. I stated CPM S60V and CPM S90V.





Despite who does the heat-treatment on CTS-XHP, I believe it'll rust no matter what. There's not enough vanadium(or other carbide-former) to leave enough free chromium to form an adequate passivation layer.

 

[Buck_110]

S90V has no staying power? That's funny, I just bought a couple of new knives with S90V blades earlier this year. Maybe they're CPM-Mystical Vaporware rather than S90V. Please don't confuse "common" with "staying power."

Can you name three manufacturers(not custom makers) which currently offer production CPM S90V knives?
Spyderco no longer offers it.

The custom world is a different story. Anything can be had in that arena.

 

[JNewell]

S90V has never been continuously available in a production knife, but it has been steadily available in limited edition knives for years, and the ridiculous prices they sell for in the second hand market indicate that there is a very significant demand for these knives. Spyderco has had a last four models in S90V in the past four or five years and will have more. I don't understand you point. Are you suggesting we ought to roll back knifemaking to where it was 50 years ago to satisfy some idea you have about "staying power"?

Can you name three manufacturers(not custom makers) which currently offer production CPM S90V knives?
Spyderco no longer offers it.

The custom world is a different story. Anything can be had in that arena.

 

[Ankerson]

Can you name three manufacturers(not custom makers) which currently offer production CPM S90V knives?
Spyderco no longer offers it.

The custom world is a different story. Anything can be had in that arena.

The problem is that S90V isn't easy to HT or make knife blades out of so a regular production knife in this steel wouldn't be cheap, think over $300 street price.

Production Companies have to think about a lot of different things and appeal to a lot of different types of customers who all have different ideas and uses for their knives.

S90V has had lasting power, and is still in high demand even to this day, finding makers that are willing to work with it and know the steel is the difficult part.

 

[MORIMOTOM]

cpm 154 is a relatively new develpment, correct? 154cm has been around for many years, of course. but iirc, cpm's version is no more than a few years old.

Can you name three manufacturers(not custom makers) which currently offer production CPM S90V knives?
Spyderco no longer offers it.

The custom world is a different story. Anything can be had in that arena.

spyderco does not currently offer it, as it has only been available in sprint runs. but you can't say there won't be another knife in s90v being released.

 

[Ankerson]

cpm 154 is a relatively new develpment, correct? 154cm has been around for many years, of course. but iirc, cpm's version is no more than a few years old.




spyderco does not currently offer it, as it has only been available in sprint runs. but you can't say there won't be another knife in s90v being released.

Yep, I believe we will be seeing more S90V and S110V as time goes on.

 

[jimnolimit]

Yep, I believe we will be seeing more S90V and S110V as time goes on.

im surprised we aren't seeing more of them now being that the market is clamoring for it.

i hope spyderco has success with carpenters CTS-20CP and we can get it on a more regular basis.

 

[Ankerson]

im surprised we aren't seeing more of them now being that the market is clamoring for it.

i hope spyderco has success with carpenters CTS-20CP and we can get it on a more regular basis.

S110V isn't easy to come by these days, CTS-20CP... Well who knows the story on that one.

S90V is available though.

Crucible is making more S110V so we should be seeing some of that coming down the pike I think.

Bohler is really stirring things up with M390 and ELMAX so who knows what we might see.

 

[hardheart]

I guess 420J2, AUS4, and 3Cr13 are superior knife steels because of their wide availability. Material and machining costs apparently have nothing to do with production numbers.

 

[JNewell]

This bronze stuff has no staying power. I am staying with rocks.