What is the deal with the steel? Old vs New

Dunner

Dunner

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Ok. I am not sure if this specific comment was here or over at BSUSA but one of the axe guys I respect commented on the older axe steel smoking the new stuff convincingly in some thread. I think it was a thread discussing axe options for someone new to axes and comparing a restored old school axe from the heyday of the American axe or a new one from a company like Council, Barco or Vaughn.

I could see that since people's livelihood was on the line back in the day there was a LOT of competition for performance in those tools and if it is true that the older steel and temper is that much better that has everything to do with it. I figured that even a somewhat lazy approach to improving steel in general over the years might add something to help new products make up some of that lost determination to make the very best axe possible that might have existed back then.

What is the deal?

I am considering a cruiser just to put that out there...


Edited to add... BLAST! I probably should have searched for an earlier discussion. If this is a beat discussion ignore this post LOL. I will find the answers if they are already here.
 
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The steel these days is much better, as is the heat treatment. It's the design and execution that are comparatively lacking. ;)
 
Ok. That make sense and helps a lot! Thank you :thumbup:
 
A deliberately broad one. The steel and heat treatment available today is better than that which was used historically. Whether or not those resources are used by a manufacturer are another story, but would fall under design and execution. So a cast Mexican or Chinese hardware store axe is worse all around than a top-tier historical model, but that's a fault of the design and execution of the tool, which includes material and process selection. If I wanted to I could design an axe with a cast lead head with inserted silly putty edge and a balsa handle. Would the problem be the fault of the materials...or my selection of the materials as a designer? ;)
 
Today we have the best steels available to the general maker. What we don't have is a preponderance of clients who demand excellence in heat treat and design.

On this form I leaned a lot about design of axes in a thread that appeared years ago, I still remember reading it. Some of it pertained to knive design as well. Today I stopped my a store that had a huge rack of axes, I looked for some excellence in design and fund none, other than some well thought out plastic handles.

The owner of the store was brought up using an axe and I asked him why he did not have some of the great geometries of some of the axes that were once available at most hardware stores. He told me that they were more expensive and few would use one long enough to know the difference and did not care. They bought what they felt was best, but their decision was definitely based on a limited knowledge base.

Ideal functional design and heat treatment still exists (probably) but who in this day will ever know what a great axe is- or care.

I ask readers of this thread:
When was the last time you cut wood with an axe at -30 f degrees.
When was the last time you spent a week solid cutting wood with one?

I fear the time of functional field tools is dwindling rapidly.

There are folks out there who have no idea how to sharpen an axe, and this is probably the majority of purchases made.
 
Good stuff. In this age of disposable everything, anything of lasting quality has to be sought out.

Ed Fowler said:
When was the last time you cut wood with an axe at -30 f degrees.
When was the last time you spent a week solid cutting wood with one?
Click to expand...

Let's see...never...and...never...dammit. Mr. Fowler, it would be interesting to see that thread!
 
I had it bookmarked, but can't find it, maybe someone remembers it. It was probably the best information on Axes I have ever seen written anywhere.
 
True Temper is a good basic ax. I have 2 that I bought at the turn of the century. For a person that will use the ax for occasional splitting, limbing, and root grubbing it will work well. I also have a True Temper hatchet from the 60's. It has a much better finish on it and it will sharpen up better than the newer True Tempers. For someone that needed to split a lot of kindling or cut a lot of dead branches for firewood while camping it is a far better choice. So, if you can find a good older ax or hatchet you will end up with a better product than you can get from the lower end axes and hatchets available today. If you are willing to shell out a C-note plus some you can get an ax that rivals the quality of the best axes (except custom) ever made. If you are willing to work on a lower end ax - google 'old jimbo' - you can make yourself an ax or hatchet that will cut with the best of them.
 
Nickxdon: I believe that is is, hard to tell without all the photos that were originally with it. Never the less it is a good one.
 
Ed Fowler said:
Today we have the best steels available to the general maker. What we don't have is a preponderance of clients who demand excellence in heat treat and design.

On this form I leaned a lot about design of axes in a thread that appeared years ago, I still remember reading it. Some of it pertained to knive design as well. Today I stopped my a store that had a huge rack of axes, I looked for some excellence in design and fund none, other than some well thought out plastic handles.

The owner of the store was brought up using an axe and I asked him why he did not have some of the great geometries of some of the axes that were once available at most hardware stores. He told me that they were more expensive and few would use one long enough to know the difference and did not care. They bought what they felt was best, but their decision was definitely based on a limited knowledge base.

Ideal functional design and heat treatment still exists (probably) but who in this day will ever know what a great axe is- or care.

I ask readers of this thread:
When was the last time you cut wood with an axe at -30 f degrees.
When was the last time you spent a week solid cutting wood with one?

I fear the time of functional field tools is dwindling rapidly.

There are folks out there who have no idea how to sharpen an axe, and this is probably the majority of purchases made.
Click to expand...

I largely agree. At the same time, though, the upswing in homesteaders and hobby farmers is also increasing the demand for good hand tools. Not to the same levels as the demand in the 40's and earlier but it's progress.
 
Hoping to do more of it very soon. I'm getting crushed with projects right now. But I got some good stuff on deck.
 
"Is," meaning "maybe," was more likely "is" before WW II - at least when it comes to more makers then exemplify that quality today.

I'm not sure you could have sold much of the cr%p we see today if you ran a hardware store in , say, 1938. A better "knowledge base" then, in Ed's words, because there were more regular users compared to Modern Times." Everyone with a coal furnace needed firewood to start the coal fire until deep Winter meant a furnace going 24/7, and the chicken came with a head on and needed execution. My grandfather's "hatchet" was a formidable Vaughan & Bushnell that dispatched heaps of firewood and flocks of poultry and seemed as able to shave "feather sticks" as a pocket knife.

Not to mention the "quality" of most of the handles on today's Asia imports. Yeech!
 
M3mphis said:
Good stuff. In this age of disposable everything, anything of lasting quality has to be sought out.



Let's see...never...and...never...dammit. Mr. Fowler, it would be interesting to see that thread!
Click to expand...

Id love to see Peter Vido write about this, as Im pretty sure he and his family has done both (can you make it happen Steve?), Probably many times. Sometimes the joy of using a good tool is just in and of itself. Seperate from effeciency, modern tools, credentials etc. Not to toot my own horn, but I have worked with an axe enough that I no longer think about that stuff. I like axes and I like to work with them, whether its effecient or not. Stuff is too complicated to ever figure out, so its easier to just nip it in the bud and be bewildered. There is more effecient ways to do everything, but that doesnt stop most of the people on here from still having a fascination with the supposedly slow, old, innefficient ways of doing things.

There I go again with the philosophy crap.
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
The steel these days is much better, as is the heat treatment. It's the design and execution that are comparatively lacking. ;)
Click to expand...

I read the other comments that go along with this, and I would agree with the fact that I guess that technology is there to make a better axe head in regards to the metal, there just isnt the "want" to do so. The old Collins Legitimus, Mann Edge, Kelly Axe Mfg Co, Wm Beatty, Stohler, etc - those were/are some serious tools - they blow anything out of the water today - the new 5160 whatever it is doesnt hold a candle to them - its a shame really - but as stated there are many factors at play.
 
I think the only axes pushing the frontier of excellence are competition axes. They are the only users for whom excellence matters, in practical terms. As mentioned by others, the rest of us can make do with average stuff. Workers use chainsaws or air tools.
Competition axes are too heavy for me, though.
But the price of competition axes may be a guide as to the price of a top notch best possible axe.
 
Operator1975 said:
I read the other comments that go along with this, and I would agree with the fact that I guess that technology is there to make a better axe head in regards to the metal, there just isnt the "want" to do so. The old Collins Legitimus, Mann Edge, Kelly Axe Mfg Co, Wm Beatty, Stohler, etc - those were/are some serious tools - they blow anything out of the water today - the new 5160 whatever it is doesnt hold a candle to them - its a shame really - but as stated there are many factors at play.
Click to expand...

And it all comes from the intelligence that went into good design and execution more so than raw materials if you ask me. A well-designed bronze knife will easily out-cut S90V that's shaped like a brick and not heat treated at all. Benjamin Franklin may have been right when he said that there was never a good knife made from bad steel, but he forgot to mention that many a bad knife is made with good steel and that a good knife can be cleverly made from "good enough" steel. ;)

mtangent said:
I think the only axes pushing the frontier of excellence are competition axes. They are the only users for whom excellence matters, in practical terms. As mentioned by others, the rest of us can make do with average stuff. Workers use chainsaws or air tools.
Competition axes are too heavy for me, though.
But the price of competition axes may be a guide as to the price of a top notch best possible axe.
Click to expand...

Pretty much this. The only market where there's serious demand for a monumentally high quality axe in the competition field and yet the designs used for the task are really mostly good just at doing competition cutting rather than serious field work. I think that it's possible to run the bits as hard as the old American axes (the Scandinavian companies do it) but that companies make 'em soft because it's cheaper and the less-informed lay person is liable to wreck a hard one anyhow.
 
What needs to be sought is functional balance between the maker and the client who may need an axe, and the climate the axe will be used in, the nature of the wood is another variable to consider. Green wood as opposed to dried or frozen wood in the winter time are very significant variables.

I once owned a great double bit axe, it had belonged to a rancher who used it hard in the early part of the last century in the high country of the rocky mountains. One edge was obviously designed for easy cutting, the other edge was steeper and designed for tough work. Either edge would dent, but not chip, I loved that axe for it was the best of both worlds I lived in. I wish I could find it now.

An axe edge that is too hard can chip or break and be impossible to sharpen in the field. An axe edge that is too soft will not cut long. As many who read this form know, the geometry of the axe head is also a very significant feature. Others on this form are much more knowledgeable than I am. I learned about the importance of heat treat by reading about the problems faced by makers back in the early 1900's. They learned the hard way that they had to balance heat treat with temperature the axe would be used in.

I have had axe heads that functioned beautifully in warm temperatures, but when used in a cold environment would chip like glass. An easy experiment for testing the heat treat of an axe is to try chopping ice, when your axe works well on wood in the summer and can chop ice in the winter you know the maker did his homework.

I only got to hold what I considered a fine competition axe once, it was truly a work of art. The owner explained every aspect of that axe to me. If I tried to explain it now I could not do the axe justice, time has dulled my memory but at the time it all made sense. There was no aspect of that axe that he could not explain from a functional view point.

One very cold winter where temperatures were -50 f. and below I had to chop ice daily to water my cows. The axes I owned at the time failed miserably. For a while I used a post hole digging bar, then deciding to face he challenge I forged a very crude ice chopper out of 52100, after a little practical testing I learned how to shape and heat treat it. This was a very valuable learning experience for me.
 
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