What is the deal with the steel? Old vs New

FortyTwoBlades said:
The only market where there's serious demand for a monumentally high quality axe in the competition field and yet the designs used for the task are really mostly good just at doing competition cutting rather than serious field work.
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Agreed. 70 years ago there were tens of thousands of men across North America using axes industrially. And in industry time is money. They had to have great tools and competition was fierce to get the reputation of making 'the best' axe. The current axe renaissance hasn't yet created the kind of competition that historic axe makers faced.

Those modern makers with the best quality assurance and materials aren't paying close attention to axe geometry. Or they're focusing their product line on bushcrafting tools rather than production chopping tools. The best choppers are still vintage axes even though the technology to produce notably better axes is there. It's just not being done.

I suppose it's market driven. Production work is done with chainsaws, not crosscut saws and axes. The modern axe buyer is either a bushcrafter or small-time homeowner wood splitter. Nobody fells with axes so few felling axes are made (though some are called felling axes).
 
Square_peg said:
Agreed. 70 years ago there were tens of thousands of men across North America using axes industrially. And in industry time is money. They had to have great tools and competition was fierce to get the reputation of making 'the best' axe. The current axe renaissance hasn't yet created the kind of competition that historic axe makers faced.

Those modern makers with the best quality assurance and materials aren't paying close attention to axe geometry. Or they're focusing their product line on bushcrafting tools rather than production chopping tools. The best choppers are still vintage axes even though the technology to produce notably better axes is there. It's just not being done.

I suppose it's market driven. Production work is done with chainsaws, not crosscut saws and axes. The modern axe buyer is either a bushcrafter or small-time homeowner wood splitter. Nobody fells with axes so few felling axes are made (though some are called felling axes).
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Look at it this way--compare industrial kitchen/butcher's knives to knives designed for home use. Home users demand low price but do not demand quality. Professional users demand low price but ALSO demand quality first and foremost. Then there's the cutlery nerds (us) that largely demand only quality and are willing to pay steeper prices for better work. Which slice of the pie is largest? ;)

If you want economy go with Wal*Mart, Chicago Cutlery, Kitchen Aid, etc. If you want high-performance at only modestly greater expense, buy a brand that produces for the industrial scene--Victorinox, F. Dick, Dexter Russell, Mundial, etc. because their market demands good performance tempered with economy. If you want top tier go with a premium manufacturer like Global, but you're going to pay for it.

I don't see affordable high quality axes making a comeback until there's a large number of professional users out there to make such production attractive and feasible. As with most manufacturing, economy of scale comes into play big time. The more you're making of them the less expensive they are per unit, by and large. Until then we can only keep voicing our wants and needs to the smaller production firms that are going after our specialty sector of the market and hope for the best.
 
Wow. Great to see Ed Fowler over here! A man who has spent countless hours researching ideal blends of hard, tough, sharp, etc., and spent even more time sharing his findings with others.
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
Look at it this way--compare industrial kitchen/butcher's knives to knives designed for home use. Home users demand low price but do not demand quality. Professional users demand low price but ALSO demand quality first and foremost. Then there's the cutlery nerds (us) that largely demand only quality and are willing to pay steeper prices for better work. Which slice of the pie is largest? ;)

If you want economy go with Wal*Mart, Chicago Cutlery, Kitchen Aid, etc. If you want high-performance at only modestly greater expense, buy a brand that produces for the industrial scene--Victorinox, F. Dick, Dexter Russell, Mundial, etc. because their market demands good performance tempered with economy. If you want top tier go with a premium manufacturer like Global, but you're going to pay for it.

I don't see affordable high quality axes making a comeback until there's a large number of professional users out there to make such production attractive and feasible. As with most manufacturing, economy of scale comes into play big time. The more you're making of them the less expensive they are per unit, by and large. Until then we can only keep voicing our wants and needs to the smaller production firms that are going after our specialty sector of the market and hope for the best.
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You nailed it. I think these high quality axes are out there, affordable is another topic all together. You get what you pay for, as the saying goes.

Did I read on here somewhere Winkler makes axes?
 
The one place today where good quality axes are still used frequently and properly is with wilderness trail crews. There are a great many miles of back country trails where chainsaws are prohibited and axe/crosscut saw combinations are the only tools allowed for clearing fallen trees. Even on trails where chainsaws are allowed I prefer to use the traditional tools, as they weigh less than a chainsaw kit (saw, gas, oil, chaps, etc.) and I can cruise more miles.

People talk about the reverence "old timers" had for their axes, but I don't see that in many cases. Just look at axe heads on Ebay and three things jump out -- mushroomed polls from hammering steel wedges, rounded toes from repeated chopping into the ground/rocks, and power grinder marks from poor attempts at sharpening. A good clean head is a rare find on Ebay and worth bidding on.

The steel on old American and Swedish axe heads IS good and for the auction price, much better than Chinese imports.
 
trailtime: Good post! It is good to hear from someone who knows what for and why.

As it probably has been for many years most of the cutting tools are and were sold to folks who were not very sophisticated when it comes to using and caring for them this is and was the majority.

There were some that went for quality and used them, they show up every now and then, but I feel many probably remain in the families of those who knew what they were doing as prized possessions.
 
Great thread.

Racing (competition) axes can get pretty pricey and are very specific to the task. When I was in college (forestry) we held physical (and technical) competitions against other schools which included speed chop, poll felling and axe throw. We had two racing axes, and while on the low end in quality, they would go. Not realistic for a true Woodsman. Here are some examples I found online.
http://www.tuatahiaxes.com/racingaxes.html (scroll down and check out the grinds)
http://www.osborneaxes.com.au/conventional_grinds.html

Tim Smith of Jack Mountain Bushcraft up in Maine, who makes his livelihood teaching Bushcraft, I suspect uses an axe far more than most these days. He wrote this on his blog…

The axe is the most versatile and useful tool to have with you in the forest. It can help you build a first-class shelter, put up a sizable pile of firewood, drive tent pegs, split logs, etc., etc., etc. As with all tools, when looking for an axe you should try and get the best one that you can. The best axes made in the world were made in the northeast before the crosscut saw came into wide use. These were hand-forged of two pieces of steel; a harder, well-tempered piece for the bit and a softer piece that was hammered around the eye. The axes were the best because they were used all day, every day in the woods and the men who used them demanded quality. The single-bit axe, or poll axe, was the standard until the double-bit came along and began replacing it. Not too long after, the crosscut saw became widely used, then the chain saw. With the proliferation of the chain saw the axe was no longer used on a daily basis, and as such there was no longer a market for well-made axes. The modern axes made in the USA are usually poured into a mold and tempered one hardness throughout. They’re often too soft to hold a decent edge, or too hard to sharpen with a file. In either case, they’re not good for much except splitting kindling or cutting roots in the ground. There are still good axes available new from Scandinavia, where the axe is still widely used. There are also many great axe heads to be found at antique stores, used tool stores, and flea markets that represent the highest echelon of the axe-maker’s craft. A good test for these is to run a new, sharp file along the edge to sharpen it. If it’s too soft, the file will push the edge over. If it’s too hard, the file will skip. If it’s just right, grab onto the axe with both hands and don’t let go until you pay for it and get it home.
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Personally, I have over a dozen axes which cover the gamut of this thread. Newer axes including two Gransfor Bruks, a Wetterlings, two Fiskars, and two cheapies from the hardware store. I have several old Collins Legitamus, two Plumb, two old Snow & Neally, an old Hults Bruk boys axe and while not as old (1960s or 70s) my baby is a 2.5 lbs Genuine Norlund.

In my personal very amateur opinion based on what I own, the steel quality of the Gransfor Bruks is very good and mostly comparable to those of my older axes, but in terms of use (design), the older axes offer superior productivity and are easier to care for.

If you have not found this website yet, it covers the history and markings of some of the older American axes.
http://www.yesteryearstools.com

Peace, Chris
 
abo4ster said:
Tim Smith of Jack Mountain Bushcraft up in Maine, who makes his livelihood teaching Bushcraft, I suspect uses an axe far more than most these days.
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Ive chatted with Tim a bit on the web about axes. He considers Maine axes to be the best, generally (not to put words in his mouth). Hes got a couple of real nice ones, including a John King and an Emerson Steves which is brand new with the label. Jaw dropping axe for sure.
 
G-pig said:
Ive chatted with Tim a bit on the web about axes. He considers Maine axes to be the best, generally (not to put words in his mouth). Hes got a couple of real nice ones, including a John King and an Emerson Steves which is brand new with the label. Jaw dropping axe for sure.
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Well of course! :D Maine had such a kickin' edged tool industry back in the day. Brings a tear to my eye that there's so little left of that heritage. Emerson and Stevens made some mighty fine scythe blades, too. I've got a bush blade from them.
 
Having used/tested a boatload of new and vintage axes, plus doing axe sharpening/profiling/restoration work for locals here in the mountains, I'd have to say that vintage steel is noticeably better than most modern axe steels. The exception would be the oil-quenched forged steels that Gransfors and Hultafors use, which in my experience, are very similar to vintage steels (no surprised since they studied old axe designs and steel composition). The steel on US-made Barco-Kelly's is also very good, maybe 90-95% as good as the Swedish steel, as is the steel on German Oxheads and Helko axes. Wetterlings uses some sort of electronic heat tempering instead of oil-quenching, so this might explain why threads pop-up with people complaining of chipped or broken edges at certain times. Council steel is tough but soft.
 
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Old Warren Sager Chemical axe is probably the best axe steel I have seen. Old Knot Klipper is very good as well. Dominates the new axes - there is no comparison regardless of which company now makes it. Even the Hytest axe I had couldn't compare.
 
Again, I think this is a case of what's being used today and how it's being used vs. what COULD be used and how. I think it would be entirely possible to make an axe with steel that bested those of old, but it would cost an arm and a leg.
 
I've read in a book about woodcarving that first-rate tool makers in the past used methods that are good for the steel quality (like baths of mercury or lead, used for the heat treatment) which are not used today because of the higher costs "and other reasons". I'm assuming the other reasons include health and pollution considerations.
 
Other reasons also include computer-controlled ovens that allow for precise regulation of temperature and timing of heat cycles. :)
 
I thought the question was old vs new, not about what could be. Straight up those old axe heads beat anything from today, hands down.
 
This is an interesting discussion. Lots of knowledge and experience being shared here.

There's definitely a lot to be said for the quality of old axes. And it makes sense that in the modern era some of this quality has been compromised for the sake of cost and efficiency. That said, modern smelting technology, manufacturing techniques, and heat treating processes allow axe and sawmakers to produce much more consistent and repeatable results than they could in the past. We also have much better and more uniform alloys available than we did 100 years ago. So what is it about the older steel that makes it superior to today's steel? Are all of the older axes mentioned in this thread two-piece forged steel bit / iron body construction or they all-steel construction? Does anyone know the content of carbon and other alloying elements in these steels and how they were heat-treated? And how should a modern maker seek to match or improve upon the quality and performance of the steel of yesterday?
 
The steel seems sort of irrelevant. The geometry is what made the old tools better than the new ones. The steel happened to be more in tune as well, but thats an aside. Even if the modern makers used the best steel available, if the geometry is not right you will have a sub par tool. On the flip side, even if the steel improved to a good-enough state, and the geometry is corrected, we would be left with far better tools. Right now the tools are both geometrically poor, and the steel is not tuned in either, so its a double whammy.

Ideologically speaking I would rather have a tool made by someone who knew what they were doing via the process of working closely to the tools for a long time, than a tool made mostly by machines, with computer controlled temps and processes and a result of tedious measurements and calculations. The former has more of an imperfect soul than some modernized piece of mathematics incarnate.
 
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G-pig said:
The steel seems sort of irrelevant. The geometry is what made the old tools better than the new ones. The steel happened to be more in tune as well, but thats an aside. Even if the modern makers used the best steel available, if the geometry is not right you will have a sub par tool. On the flip side, even if the steel improved to a good-enough state, and the geometry is corrected, we would be left with far better tools. Right now the tools are both geometrically poor, and the steel is not tuned in either, so its a double whammy.
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Bingo.
 
On the older 2-piece steel axes, the steel is very thin around the eye which to me means more of the axe weight can go to the blade and also a subtle flexibility. Also today large drop forges are used and the axe is manipulated in the forging process maybe 8-12 times while in the older axes a lighter power hammer was used hammering an axe head dozens of times to get the proper shape and weld the 2 steels. This would tend to align the grains in the steel better, making a better edge IMO. Also the shape of the older axes, with their concavity, had more beauty.
 
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