What is the deal with the steel? Old vs New

Interesting thread gentlemen. I will have to come back and read it again when I have time. One of my other hobbies is metal detecting and I have found a lot of axe heads over time. When I lived in the Boreal forest zone the small city that I lived in had huge commercial wood processors around the turn of the century. And the forests were dotted with large camps felling all winter. First they had huge horse teams hauling out the lumber, then they went to these little CAT like train\tractors to skid loads out. I found many axe heads with some in pretty good shape. One day I found several including double bits, or whatever you call the double axes. Now I am in the south and find pioneer axe heads. The last one that I had, but threw out, had a square head nail in what was left of the handle inside the head. Now I want to go grab another that I tossed by an old house foundation from around 1910-20. Now I'm curious.
 
"Old versus new" is fairly broad and vague about what we are comparing. Here's a specific example from the 1930s, when axes were made in large quantities in huge industrial facilities, and yet the quality is acknowledged to be very high.
How did they do it?

From the 1937 catalog of the Warren Axe & Tool Co., Warren, Pennsylvania:

"...we are constantly on the alert to improve, wherever possible, the quality of our
product. We have adopted the latest approved, electrically-controlled equipment for
tempering axes, and have recently installed other heat-treating equipment which enables
us to produce a better product than over before..."

"...The best grade steel is used exclusively in our highest grade axes and branded
Sager Special Chemical Process..."

"...Our factory capacity is 3,000 hand-forged axes daily... Our axes are HAND FORGED, which enables us to work the steel more thoroughly, thereby making it tougher than is possible by other processes used by some manufacturers to lessen cost... Each Sager axe receives several hundred blows under the hammer, thereby thoroughly working and refining the steel, which accounts largely for its toughness and ability to stand hard usage... The Sager axe is tempered by a process which requires double the time required for ordinary runs of product, but when finished it is right... Natural gas is used which gives the most uniform heat for tempering..."

"...All Sager axes are carefully inspected in each department and subjected to a rigid test by striking the blade several heavy hammer blows, thereby detecting any imperfections..."

"IN SHORT -- The Sager Patent Axe is the embodiment of all the skill, care, and life experience of some of the oldest and most prominent axe experts in the country, honestly made, and the quality which we claim is universally recognized."


[As shown in the catalog, the company made a wide selection of axe patterns and weights.]


quoted from
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:nbEXJ678mgoJ:www.roseantiquetools.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/1937warrenaxepdfopt6.54.pdf+1937+warren+axe+pdf&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESjsMX802QMyXlfFEmCUBZlL3FA0QFo1LbxOtS-VMylagFnQiI239zhmIllJFElSVLeRFz8yXte4hG0civckp2WE7KMywvK2Y93GWhj23YQDsph9dpgPIl7blFEnhgZUqIMT-5W5&sig=AHIEtbQHVMA8Jcw_WOTkvtElJU3vPdiM5Q
courtesy of Rose Antique Tools
 
I find it a little hard to wax nostalgic on old vs new. I often feel that the 'old school' axes get a bit overly romanticized. Do I like vintage and antique axes? Yes, some of them are my favorite axes to use. Are there differences in material and design between most current production axes and those made 150 years ago? Yes, absolutely. But if you were to ask me if the basic conception of axe production has changed at all, I'd have to say, 'Not a whole lot.' As far back as 1832, The Collins Co. was developing machines to punch axe heads, weld bits, and control hardening and tempering. The shear amount of patents held by the Collins Co. is pretty impressive. Often times a new machine, creating increased efficiency in the production process would cause bottle necks 'downstream' and new machines and processes had to be developed just to keep up.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the improvements made in modern steel actually make for better axes today because it allowed for the simplification of the manufacturing process, and thus better consistency in both materials and manufacturing. In 1859 at the Collins factory, an axe could have gone through at least 3, maybe more, mechanical processes: punching, welding, shaving, hardening and tempering. Each of these steps were mechanized innovations developed by Collins, and were subsequently adopted and modified by competitors (this is not to say that other companies didn't offer innovations, just that Collins had a reputation for it.) With increased complexity in manufacturing, I'd have to imagine that the chances of defects also increased. Additionally, quality control measures have increased beyond the mere visual inspection of the 1850s, and the 'hammer test' of the 1930s.

Current day axes, being made of a single piece of steel actually go through a much less complicated process than those of 100 years ago. I'm getting a little off topic here, but wanted to offer a bit of manufacturing perspective. I guess the story I'm getting at is that innovations in manufacturing drive more innovations in manufacturing. In the case of improvements in creating steel both more efficiently and of a more consistent quality, it actually allowed for the streamlining and simplification of the entire production process and the doing away with complicated machinery, something which no manufacturer could afford to walk away from.

I'll admit that I'm not as knowledgable about steel history as a lot of other folks, so I'd be happy to hear from others on how exactly the manufacturing of steel has changed, in process and quality, over the past 150 years.

For more info on the Collins manufacturing process in 1859 check out this Scientific American article (pgs 36-37): "Our Visit to the Collinsville Ax Works"
 
...I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the improvements made in modern steel actually make for better axes today because it allowed for the simplification of the manufacturing process, and thus better consistency in both materials and manufacturing. In 1859 at the Collins factory...

...Current day axes, being made of a single piece of steel actually go through a much less complicated process than those of 100 years ago."

Okay, but what about comparing single-piece axe heads being made in large quantities during the 1930s (like the Sager Axes) with those made today?

...
...Additionally, quality control measures have increased beyond the mere visual inspection of the 1850s, and the 'hammer test' of the 1930s....

The "hammer test" is still being done today by at least one axe manufacturer:

"...every single head is tested by a smith who, with a big hammer, strikes on the edge’s corners. If the blade does not break the head is good."
quoted from The Axe Book by Gransfors Bruks, which began manufacturing axes in 1902.


Thanks, Nick, for the link to the Collins article.
 
It would be awful nice if high centerlines made a comeback. One of the biggest negatives to me regarding modern axes is the geometry is over-simplified.
 
Okay, but what about comparing single-piece axe heads being made in large quantities during the 1930s (like the Sager Axes) with those made today?

The "hammer test" is still being done today by at least one axe manufacturer:

The Sager question is a good one. I'm not as familiar with their manufacturing processes at that time. I'd also defer to someone with more knowledge of steel production history.

I'm willing to bet Gransfors still batch tests their axes on a Rockwell tester, or has someone do it independently, in addition to the hammer test.

FortyTwoBlades: I'd agree. I'm willing to bet high centerlines were lost as a casualty of production efficiency. So I'll assert that production innovations are not always a good thing. A double edged sword.
 
Some may laugh at the "hammer test". Today a friend is using a sophisticated complex set if instruments to evaluate critical metal tools and hardware in the oil field. How does he do it? Harmonics. He believes he can use his testing equipment to graph the integrity of a knife blade. I would imagine the hammer test to the knowledgeable ear could be very revealing.
 
Other reasons also include computer-controlled ovens that allow for precise regulation of temperature and timing of heat cycles. :)

Not to mention precise and uniform temperatures at quench. New exotic steels can be both high performance and affordable (for commercial manufacturers). But the new steels aren't as user friendly for the backyard blacksmith. Plain high carbon steels can be high performers with methods that can be reproduced in the small shop.

Where a new axe maker might use medium carbon steel and high-tech heat treats to get the necessary hardness, an old time manufacturer would have just used a higher carbon steel and lower tech heat treats. But the higher carbon adds more than just hardness, it can increase toughness and wear resistance, too.
 
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Okay, but what about comparing single-piece axe heads being made in large quantities during the 1930s (like the Sager Axes) with those made today?

This.

It's not the 1850's axes that were excellent. The steel manufacturing process was still in it's infancy back then. Bessemer didn't patent his process until 1855 and it took decades after that to become prevalent. Other improvements in the 1890's didn't become commonplace until the nineteen-teens. That's when the golden age of axes really began. And it continued into the 1950's (and beyond for a few makers). But the chainsaw hit the scene and the need for high quality axes diminished.
 
Yeah, ironically (just like with the scythe) our ability to make a tool of truly phenomenal quality came right at a time when other developments lowered demand for such an item. The "golden age" was relatively short-lived.
 
Talked to a couple owners of some tool and die shops - they said the main issue with the difference in quality between old tools and new tools is that 100 years ago all the metal being used was virgin - ore straight out if the ground worked into your axe, pliers, etc. Now, 90% of all metal is not virgin - recycled, additives, etc. It rusts faster, breaks quicker, etc. Makes sense. You can have better equipment and machines but if the steel itself is 2nd grade you can only put so much lipstick on that pig.
 
Good point. I've seen import rebar where you can see the remnants and nuts & bolts and scrap steel still visible in it. They didn't even bring it up to temperature enough to homogenize it. No telling what it's composition is. There's good reason not to use that crap in our freeways and bridges.
 
Talked to a couple owners of some tool and die shops - they said the main issue with the difference in quality between old tools and new tools is that 100 years ago all the metal being used was virgin - ore straight out if the ground worked into your axe, pliers, etc. Now, 90% of all metal is not virgin - recycled, additives, etc. It rusts faster, breaks quicker, etc. Makes sense. You can have better equipment and machines but if the steel itself is 2nd grade you can only put so much lipstick on that pig.

A billet of high quality steel, as good or better than anything they could get 75 years ago, say 1" x 5" x 6" would cost me on the order of $10 - $20. That would be for a simple steel (1084). Although a manufacturing company could get it for less, by the time it gets to the customer it could easily add $30 or more to the cost of the product. The cost would be much higher for a more exotic steel (i.e. S7).
 
Today the best high quality 52100 steel comes from China, so does some of the worst. The old timers knew how to make the steel they used perform to its greatest potential, simply because it was the quality of their product kept them in business. Not only that but the man using their products knew what he was doing.

The knowledge was theirs and they did not share, today we have the best steels ever known to man, but those who make the tools are bound by tradition and economics - few dare to dream beyond the textbooks. We are in the age of disposable tools and few know the difference.

As far as computer control, I am reminded of the old saying GIGO -Garbage In, Garbage Out, that came with the computer age.

I strongly believe that the old time blacksmith knew controls that were equally fine tuned to quality performance and they are for the most part forgotten.

Quality comes from knowledgeable testing of performance. There is no substitute.
 
I strongly believe that the old time blacksmith knew controls that were equally fine tuned to quality performance and they are for the most part forgotten.

Quality comes from knowledgeable testing of performance. There is no substitute.

Every time a blacksmith dies a library is lost. When Grant Sarver passed last year we lost the Library of Congress.
 
Today the best high quality 52100 steel comes from China, so does some of the worst. The old timers knew how to make the steel they used perform to its greatest potential, simply because it was the quality of their product kept them in business. Not only that but the man using their products knew what he was doing.

The knowledge was theirs and they did not share, today we have the best steels ever known to man, but those who make the tools are bound by tradition and economics - few dare to dream beyond the textbooks. We are in the age of disposable tools and few know the difference.

As far as computer control, I am reminded of the old saying GIGO -Garbage In, Garbage Out, that came with the computer age.

I strongly believe that the old time blacksmith knew controls that were equally fine tuned to quality performance and they are for the most part forgotten.

Quality comes from knowledgeable testing of performance. There is no substitute.

Every time a blacksmith dies a library is lost. When Grant Sarver passed last year we lost the Library of Congress.

Yes and yes. The tech is here but the knowledge is being lost.
 
Only if we let it!
Ask any old timers and share their thoughts. Some watched their grandfathers work and are more than willing to share if we show an interest, then it is up to us to share it, no matter how it may sound to us.
 
"Old versus new" is fairly broad and vague about what we are comparing. Here's a specific example from the 1930s, when axes were made in large quantities in huge industrial facilities, and yet the quality is acknowledged to be very high.
How did they do it?

From the 1937 catalog of the Warren Axe & Tool Co., Warren, Pennsylvania:

"...we are constantly on the alert to improve, wherever possible, the quality of our
product. We have adopted the latest approved, electrically-controlled equipment for
tempering axes, and have recently installed other heat-treating equipment which enables
us to produce a better product than over before..."

"...The best grade steel is used exclusively in our highest grade axes and branded
Sager Special Chemical Process..."

"...Our factory capacity is 3,000 hand-forged axes daily... Our axes are HAND FORGED, which enables us to work the steel more thoroughly, thereby making it tougher than is possible by other processes used by some manufacturers to lessen cost... Each Sager axe receives several hundred blows under the hammer, thereby thoroughly working and refining the steel, which accounts largely for its toughness and ability to stand hard usage... The Sager axe is tempered by a process which requires double the time required for ordinary runs of product, but when finished it is right... Natural gas is used which gives the most uniform heat for tempering..."

"...All Sager axes are carefully inspected in each department and subjected to a rigid test by striking the blade several heavy hammer blows, thereby detecting any imperfections..."

"IN SHORT -- The Sager Patent Axe is the embodiment of all the skill, care, and life experience of some of the oldest and most prominent axe experts in the country, honestly made, and the quality which we claim is universally recognized."


[As shown in the catalog, the company made a wide selection of axe patterns and weights.]


quoted from
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:nbEXJ678mgoJ:www.roseantiquetools.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/1937warrenaxepdfopt6.54.pdf+1937+warren+axe+pdf&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESjsMX802QMyXlfFEmCUBZlL3FA0QFo1LbxOtS-VMylagFnQiI239zhmIllJFElSVLeRFz8yXte4hG0civckp2WE7KMywvK2Y93GWhj23YQDsph9dpgPIl7blFEnhgZUqIMT-5W5&sig=AHIEtbQHVMA8Jcw_WOTkvtElJU3vPdiM5Q
courtesy of Rose Antique Tools


Steve, that's excellent info, thanks for sharing.
 
So does anyone know the actual types of steel used in any of the vintage axes? Or have numbers on the RC hardness?
 
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