What is the Grimsmo Norseman considered? Mid-Tech, Production, Custom?

[bhyde]

No, I'm grabbing it buy you're not. I actually have a thing for expensive knives. What I don't have is a thing or knives that have a couple hundred percent markup on them because people are brainwashed. Brous is a perfect example of what the Grimsmo Brothers are. Cheap Materials with High Pricing, and artificial scarcity.

Maybe if you pulled your head out of the Grimsmo Brothers you would see their knives are just sharpened fidget toys for brainwashed fanboys.

The ZT 0055 0850 0999 all have attention to detail and work put into them than any of the products GKs sell, all of which use superior materials for less money.

Even CKF does a better job than GKs for less.

First, you would have to know the manufacturing costs to say that there is "a couple hundred percent markup". Pretty clear you have absolutely no understanding of high precision manufacturing.
This country is built on capitolism and economics; You want what I make? The price is x, if price x is too expensive for the a percentage of people, it's either reduced in cost that is tolerable or manufacturer suffers the consequences.
Your on an enthusiast forum where people pay for what they want.. Some have a Caviar budget and others have a rice budget. It's vise-versa with tastes and "not willing to pay even though I clearly can".

Second, and here is the real reason I am responding to this particular post- Your insults as seen in the second line that I bolded in this quote, won't be tolerated.
Discuss the topic and not each other.

 

[PirateSeulb]

I am a fan of their knives and don't own one because I can't really afford one. I would point out that yes RWL-34 is basically CPM-154 and it is an inexpensive, but not what I would label cheap, steel and would love to see better steel but I don't think they as a company are at the point yet to make that move. The bulk of the cost as I view ti is for the precision of the work and the level of detail to ensuring that the finished product performs as amazingly as their reputation has earned them. It would make a sense for a business to reduce cost where they can particularly if it results in no lose of quality tot he final product. I am hesitant to pick up one at their current prices their older prices I would probably pick on up as IIRC they used to be ~$500 vs their current pricing of ~$800 I believe.

 

[DocJD]

Aren't these knives more for art / fondling and bling than for hard use ? Certainly you can buy more functional cutting tools for a fraction of the cost to use as beaters / hard use . So the steel formula is almost irrelevant , except for bragging rights .

I am a fan of their knives and don't own one because I can't really afford one. I would point out that yes RWL-34 is basically CPM-154 and it is an inexpensive, but not what I would label cheap, steel and would love to see better steel but I don't think they as a company are at the point yet to make that move. The bulk of the cost as I view ti is for the precision of the work and the level of detail to ensuring that the finished product performs as amazingly as their reputation has earned them. It would make a sense for a business to reduce cost where they can particularly if it results in no lose of quality tot he final product. I am hesitant to pick up one at their current prices their older prices I would probably pick on up as IIRC they used to be ~$500 vs their current pricing of ~$800 I believe.

 

[PirateSeulb]

I would use it and while they are probably priced more for knife fondler, given their action is very amazing, they typically don't have such bling to make them as much of an art knife. I would say I have seen more or about the same amount of bling in a CRK and those are generally not considered just an art piece. The steel is a bit underwhelming for the price and I get that though if their HT is as good as stated it will still perform well for any task a frame lock flipper is good for with that blade shape. I'm not trying to completely justify them or defend them as I do find their price a good bit higher than I would generally consider. Other steels offer more and at that price I would hope for a more premium steel ie M390/CPM-20CV/CTS-204P that would be good for use and a good looking knife.

 

[AntCaps]

high-end production would be my opinion, nothing wrong with that designation i just feel like any other term would be misleading.

 

[HowAmI]

First, you would have to know the manufacturing costs to say that there is "a couple hundred percent markup". Pretty clear you have absolutely no understanding of high precision manufacturing.
This country is built on capitolism and economics; You want what I make? The price is x, if price x is too expensive for the a percentage of people, it's either reduced in cost that is tolerable or manufacturer suffers the consequences.
Your on an enthusiast forum where people pay for what they want.. Some have a Caviar budget and others have a rice budget. It's vise-versa with tastes and "not willing to pay even though I clearly can".

Second, and here is the real reason I am responding to this particular post- Your insults as seen in the second line that I bolded in this quote, won't be tolerated.
Discuss the topic and not each other.

It doesn't cost much to have tight tolerances with a setup like the Norseman or Rask.

As the object becomes smaller, the risk of error can drastically go down. A 4" piece of metal being indicated down to .0001 runout is far easier than 14".

Having the correct offsets, Minimizing tool run out, and having everything properly setup doesn't cost much for those who aren't job shops, etc. There is a couple hundred percent markup when people have shown it can be done for far cheaper with better materials and less tooling and setup required.

 

[bhyde]

It doesn't cost much to have tight tolerances with a setup like the Norseman or Rask.

As the object becomes smaller, the risk of error can drastically go down. A 4" piece of metal being indicated down to .0001 runout is far easier than 14".

Having the correct offsets, Minimizing tool run out, and having everything properly setup doesn't cost much for those who aren't job shops, etc. There is a couple hundred percent markup when people have shown it can be done for far cheaper with better materials and less tooling and setup required.

This whole statement is counter-intuitive. If anyone could make parts cheaper, it's a job shop- which really is the point of a job shop. Large volume runs.
Who are these people that you are speaking of that are showing that it can be done far cheaper and with better materials? Throw down some names to we are talking apples to apples comparisons. Part volumes are what dictates price- Build 100 of something is cheaper than building 10 of that same item.

As to your first sentence, error can go down,but typically, as a part shrinks so does it's tolerance for error.. Can't remember the last time I had to indicate a part that size within .0001 so it's hard to tell where you are going with that.

 

[shinyedges]

I regularly have extremely tight tolerances on the things I make with the nlx2500sy 5 axis lathe. Let me tell you, maintaining parts to the tenth is no easy feat. When a single tenth is make or break the tolerance, so much comes in to play.

And yes, it costs more to maintain those kinds of tolerances. Risk of scrap is significantly higher, requires higher level of attention (meaning experienced person, needs to be paid a good wage), tooling, set ups, programs.. all need to be working together. It isn't magic, it's hard work and experience and that comes at a cost. I'm a machinist/programmer and that term doesn't come lighlty. I do this for a living every day.



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[HowAmI]

This whole statement is counter-intuitive. If anyone could make parts cheaper, it's a job shop- which really is the point of a job shop. Large volume runs.
Who are these people that you are speaking of that are showing that it can be done far cheaper and with better materials? Throw down some names to we are talking apples to apples comparisons. Part volumes are what dictates price- Build 100 of something is cheaper than building 10 of that same item.

As to your first sentence, error can go down,but typically, as a part shrinks so does it's tolerance for error.. Can't remember the last time I had to indicate a part that size within .0001 so it's hard to tell where you are going with that.

Just to name one. Brian Tighe. Same materials but far more work and attention to detail goes into what he does, along with having far more complicated designs.

Job shops aren't always large volume runs. A lot of job shops will have multiple operations that will be different. A lot of job shops work on large scale parts in small part quantities.

The last part was an example.

Anytime you are using the proper machine, feeds and speeds, tooling, and setup, your tolerances become tighter.

 

[bhyde]

Just to name one. Brian Tighe. Same materials but far more work and attention to detail goes into what he does, along with having far more complicated designs.

Job shops aren't always large volume runs. A lot of job shops will have multiple operations that will be different. A lot of job shops work on large scale parts in small part quantities.

The last part was an example.

Anytime you are using the proper machine, feeds and speeds, tooling, and setup, your tolerances become tighter.

Thanks for the example- A cursory look at his offerings doesn't necessarily offer anything that is cheaper with materials..The cheaper lines are around ~$350- A good value for sure and I quite like the designs. They are well worth the prices I think considering everything that is involved. (the whole lineup really) Aluminum handles doesn't seem like far better materials to me for the lower priced knives. Still,..even if you do look at a comparison, take the quantity of products that Tighe sells and how long he has been around and compare to Grimsmo? Worlds apart in my opinion.
From just a few keystrokes, I see that the Grimsmo team is around 5 people cranking out their knives offered direct from them for the most part. Kindof hard to compare that to Tighe who has been around for years, but surely, his operation is just a dad bit bigger not to mention has designs with CRKT offered in many of the knife dealers.
Job shops compete in the arena of large volume but don't typically charge McPrices for short volumes. The only time I have seen this done is if the client they work with has other volume parts in that shop, then they can work on prices a bit. Time and materials are what they are so while they can do this on a limited basis, they don't make a habit out of it. Nobody can give away money to their competitors.

The post in which I took exception to was your assertion that the Grimsmo people were making "a couple hundred percent markup". I'm still not seeing the markup in which you believe is this high. It's a small operation that has a niche market; They will always get what the market will bear- No more, no less. It's a hairy fine line. They likely are not getting volume discounts in materials that larger manufacturers get, but have all the same hurdles of other larger companies.

The posts that involve manufacturing costs and the perception on how cheap this product or that product should be made are interesting to me. CNC's to most people mean that there is no real effort or cost involved..After all, all you have to do is wave the blueprint in front of the machine controller, put a piece of material in the machine, set the timer for 2 minutes and DING!! It's done. Complete. Nothing left to do than to count the money at the cash register.
Reality is, it's just not that simple.

It's a long read on my reply, but I do have one question; As a designer and owner of your own business, what exactly is too much to charge? Do you make something like the Norseman and charge 10,20, 30 or 40% over cost? What is that magic number that you have to, after taxes and costs make a livable wage from? By the way- I am not buying any Grimsmo anytime soon. Not my style, but I won't begrudge a company trying to make it in manufacturing their own product when much of it has been offshored over the last decade or two.

 

[NorthernSouthpaw]

I would definitely think of them as high-end production.
Speaking as a consumer. I personally find the Norseman to be aesthetically hideous, and the Rask very ho-hum. However, I did think the original $500-$700 price point was fair for what you were getting. Then the demand went up. So the Grimsmo's bought some VERY expensive equipment and hired more help to keep up. The end result is they raised the price. Because they are the current "It" brand, people are willing to spend the near 100% markup. Just like they were when Hinderer (another high-end production company) was what all the cool kids wanted. The difference is that Hinderer didn't raise prices that much. The price hike was almost entirely in the secondary market. The Grimsmo's may be playing with fire. I'm very curious to see what happens when this popularity wave they are currently riding on inevitably crashes to the shore.

 

[shinyedges]

Thanks for the example- A cursory look at his offerings doesn't necessarily offer anything that is cheaper with materials..The cheaper lines are around ~$350- A good value for sure and I quite like the designs. They are well worth the prices I think considering everything that is involved. (the whole lineup really) Aluminum handles doesn't seem like far better materials to me for the lower priced knives. Still,..even if you do look at a comparison, take the quantity of products that Tighe sells and how long he has been around and compare to Grimsmo? Worlds apart in my opinion.
From just a few keystrokes, I see that the Grimsmo team is around 5 people cranking out their knives offered direct from them for the most part. Kindof hard to compare that to Tighe who has been around for years, but surely, his operation is just a dad bit bigger not to mention has designs with CRKT offered in many of the knife dealers.
Job shops compete in the arena of large volume but don't typically charge McPrices for short volumes. The only time I have seen this done is if the client they work with has other volume parts in that shop, then they can work on prices a bit. Time and materials are what they are so while they can do this on a limited basis, they don't make a habit out of it. Nobody can give away money to their competitors.

The post in which I took exception to was your assertion that the Grimsmo people were making "a couple hundred percent markup". I'm still not seeing the markup in which you believe is this high. It's a small operation that has a niche market; They will always get what the market will bear- No more, no less. It's a hairy fine line. They likely are not getting volume discounts in materials that larger manufacturers get, but have all the same hurdles of other larger companies.

The posts that involve manufacturing costs and the perception on how cheap this product or that product should be made are interesting to me. CNC's to most people mean that there is no real effort or cost involved..After all, all you have to do is wave the blueprint in front of the machine controller, put a piece of material in the machine, set the timer for 2 minutes and DING!! It's done. Complete. Nothing left to do than to count the money at the cash register.
Reality is, it's just not that simple.

It's a long read on my reply, but I do have one question; As a designer and owner of your own business, what exactly is too much to charge? Do you make something like the Norseman and charge 10,20, 30 or 40% over cost? What is that magic number that you have to, after taxes and costs make a livable wage from? By the way- I am not buying any Grimsmo anytime soon. Not my style, but I won't begrudge a company trying to make it in manufacturing their own product when much of it has been offshored over the last decade or two.

Unfortunately to many people think they are an expert when it comes to machining/manufacturing. If only it was that easy, to show the print to the machine and bang a perfect product appears. HowAmI , you make it sound so easy.
Here's some costs that aren't thought about by the joe blow experts:

Cost of machines

Cost of place to put machines

Cost of electricity to run machines

Cost of coolant to run in machines ( ours is 1000 a barrel)

Cost of machine maintenance

Cost of tooling ( iscar, Kyocera, Mitsubishi, osg, helical, just to name a few. Some are more expensive than others but all still very costly)

Cost of set equipment such a clamps, vices, parallels.. the cost a of a Kurt vice isn't a joke.

The cost of Cad/cam software, a good one costs thousands of dollars a month. (Catia, mastercam, edgecam, autocad, solidworks, to name a few)

Cost of the metrology equipment to measure the parts, unbelievably expensive. And you get what you pay for in this, hard core. Starret, mitutoyo, brown and sharp just to name a few... calipers, micrometers, view systems, cmms', height gages, just to name a few.

Cost of the persons time...

Then there is the cost of ouside services, unless you plan on buying even more equipment...

Cost of surface grinding
Heat treating
Water jetting...


I could go on... but all this adds up to a tremendous cost. In the end the product being sold has to pay for everything and then some or it isn't a viable operation. A product is worth what someone will pay. I am In the works of doing this for myself, believe me, I crunch the numbers and will charge accordingly.

 

[HowAmI]

Thanks for the example- A cursory look at his offerings doesn't necessarily offer anything that is cheaper with materials..The cheaper lines are around ~$350- A good value for sure and I quite like the designs. They are well worth the prices I think considering everything that is involved. (the whole lineup really) Aluminum handles doesn't seem like far better materials to me for the lower priced knives. Still,..even if you do look at a comparison, take the quantity of products that Tighe sells and how long he has been around and compare to Grimsmo? Worlds apart in my opinion.
From just a few keystrokes, I see that the Grimsmo team is around 5 people cranking out their knives offered direct from them for the most part. Kindof hard to compare that to Tighe who has been around for years, but surely, his operation is just a dad bit bigger not to mention has designs with CRKT offered in many of the knife dealers.
Job shops compete in the arena of large volume but don't typically charge McPrices for short volumes. The only time I have seen this done is if the client they work with has other volume parts in that shop, then they can work on prices a bit. Time and materials are what they are so while they can do this on a limited basis, they don't make a habit out of it. Nobody can give away money to their competitors.

The post in which I took exception to was your assertion that the Grimsmo people were making "a couple hundred percent markup". I'm still not seeing the markup in which you believe is this high. It's a small operation that has a niche market; They will always get what the market will bear- No more, no less. It's a hairy fine line. They likely are not getting volume discounts in materials that larger manufacturers get, but have all the same hurdles of other larger companies.

The posts that involve manufacturing costs and the perception on how cheap this product or that product should be made are interesting to me. CNC's to most people mean that there is no real effort or cost involved..After all, all you have to do is wave the blueprint in front of the machine controller, put a piece of material in the machine, set the timer for 2 minutes and DING!! It's done. Complete. Nothing left to do than to count the money at the cash register.
Reality is, it's just not that simple.

It's a long read on my reply, but I do have one question; As a designer and owner of your own business, what exactly is too much to charge? Do you make something like the Norseman and charge 10,20, 30 or 40% over cost? What is that magic number that you have to, after taxes and costs make a livable wage from? By the way- I am not buying any Grimsmo anytime soon. Not my style, but I won't begrudge a company trying to make it in manufacturing their own product when much of it has been offshored over the last decade or two.

I didn't mean Brian Tighe and Friends. I meant Brian's customs. 154CM and Aluminum isn't a good deal even at $60.

If you're trying to do a CNC vs CNC comparison then compare Koeing. Equivalent Fit and Finish with better materials, an original design, and something new to the market. Not a fashion trend for people with big wallets.

You can't charge more than other competitors while providing less and then add an upcharge (just because you want to) while providing nothing more for the paying customers. Of course they're not getting large discounts. I highly doubt any custom or some "mid tech makers" buy enough material to do so. A company like Olamic? Probably getting discounts on M390, Elmax, and Titanium.

There's effort going into CNC, slightly modifying designs and having other people do work for you (not talking about having a staff member) isn't effort on your part. it's not hard using free information and you can't charge a customer if you're experimenting and fooling around.

Cheap Materials are cheap and using large amounts of cost cutting while not giving back to the customers shows the difference between two makers. Having a good action, blind fanbase, and tight tolerance doesn't provide an extra 700+ even if you staff multiple people. I don't see Andre Van Heerden and Andre Thorburn charging massive amounts more just because of their knife's action and fit and finish.

Where are you getting over seas from?

 

[miso2]

I feel that Grimsoms are still in the incubation period, in that they are doing bunch of R&D and investing in expensive tools, and they have succeeded in acquiring "supporters" for their operation using social media.

I hope that they reduce the price to the CRK level once they are done in the incubation period and run as "business".

 

[craytab]

You can't charge more than other competitors while providing less and then add an upcharge (just because you want to) while providing nothing more for the paying customers.

Um, yes you can if people are willing to pay the price you are asking. Take the subject of this thread as an example. I'm not sure why you continue to find this concept difficult to grasp.

Just because you don't appreciate something doesn't mean others don't. I personally wouldn't buy one but I'm not going to make the argument it isn't worth it for other people who have their own personsl preferences. Different strokes and what not.

 

[TW-Knife]

Another CNC example would be Millit Knives from Idaho. Damasteel and timascus $700. Full 'matched' damasteel is $850.

 

[JRRsix7]

Just another thing to think about with the price hikes, Grimsmos old prices did not include shipping, which I’d gather is probably $25-$50 since they insure the full value of the knife. Also, they now provide cases with custom-milled foam inserts, Nano-oil, and the tool. Just extra food for thought.

 

[BilboBaggins]

Another CNC example would be Millit Knives from Idaho. Damasteel and timascus $700. Full 'matched' damasteel is $850.

I had not seen the matched damasteel. Stunning.

 

[NorthernSouthpaw]

Millet makes a beautiful knife. If only they'd ditch that monstrous logo on the handle. It kills the flow.

 

[TW-Knife]

I agree, they could move or remove the logo.