What Is The Most Edge Rententive Steel You Like To Use??.

I'm learning too much and testing too much to give a definitive answer.

You mentioned damascus... 1084/15N20 works wonderfully...but so far in my testing O1/L6 is pretty freaky.

Nick
 
from what we have experienced the heat treat has the potential to maintain and increase edge retention more than the underlying steel can. Properly heat treated steel can overcome a superior steel that is improperly heat treated. This is an artform all to itself. Elevating the bainite, playing with salt solutions, experimenting with quenching solutions..all kinds of things. Manufacturing is a never ending quest.
 
Wow! You're right Roger, not too many takers on O-1. O-1 was my first steel. I was very impressed, I was comparing to the commercial blades of 440C, like Buck. The blade did not rust as I would have expected, but took on a grey petina. 440C was my next and a very acceptable blade steel, but had to leave it behind for the techi steels. So, on to ATS-34. A very fine edge, but harder to sharpen than the crispness of carbon steel. Harder to work and harder to sharpen, but held a great edge. My first field test left a fog like stain on the blade. Not like the pretty petina of the O-1. I tried 1095 for fun, but the blade rusted before it stained. Finally, not wanting to listen to all the reports on how hard D-2 is to grind I tried and fell in love with D-2. It has the toughness of the higher stainless steels, suitable corrosion resistance for a user blade and WOW! that ole crisp feeling while sharpening. As for me and my sheath I'll use the D-2. As for sales I'll use D-2 along with ATS-34. Stainless does have its home.

As for field tests, the O-1 and D-2 were highest on the list. ATS-34 is the next best if corrosion resistance is a priority. Some day I'll have to try the mean and nasties at the top end of the hardness, 440V's and the like...

Dan
Bearpaw Knives
 
Toolmaker,
what I like about the 52100, even when learning to get the most out of it, it still did better than a lot of the other carbon steels. Once I got a blade sooo sharp, when a friend looked at the edge, it caused him to have split vision, he started seeing double and he had a migrain for about 37 seconds. Almost, any way :). He doesn't look at the edges very long any more though but he is still my friend.
Back when in a place far, far away, I would buy pocket knives and fixed blades and then trade or sell them till I got one that did what I wanted to as far as holding an edge, keeping sharp, etc. Even the same brand knife would have differences in the same style or model number knife. I had heard that a large quantity of knife blades were heat treated at the same time and that a majority of them would be acceptable, a few super good, and a few super bad. The percentages of the bad was lower on the more expensive knives and higher on the cheaper knives. Even the inexpensive knives had some super good ones in them once in a while. For me to even try to group a brand, style, model, or steel into one that is best or better, is impossible.
There is nothing to replace experience but some information is always helpful. If you will start using one diamond steel to sharpen all the knives with, notice the difference in the drag of the blades in the different knives. Soon you will know the hardness of the knife (about) you are sharpening and can tell about how long it will hold an edge. Even if all the knives were to be for the same duties, the men and women using them would dictate that they all be a little different because of their particular tastes in cutting. :):) That's what makes this quest for the right one a beautiful journey. I just love it.
 
Toolmaker, we should all agree with your good advise.

Dan, grind D2 with patience. I believe it is very susceptable to microsopic fractor from grinding with much force or time between rapid cooling. I like D2 too and O1 is special to me. Right now, and for some time yet, I have my head in stainless. Got to learn those complex heat treats- ya know.

RL
 
BUT, BG-42 is a close second and is not so much of a pain to sharpen:eek: all of my stainless is HT by the BOS man! i still like and use ats-34/154cm for my PRO CHEF culinary blades and good 'ol 440c treated by paul works great for the home chef. this steel with the cryo-treatment is better than 95% plus of the production chef cutlery. henkel, wusstof, forsner, etc.
 
Rhino,

You do you have much corrosion problems with the ATS-34 for kitchen use?? I suppose not if you make it for that. Some have said it corrodes easier than others. I like ATS-34 but have not put one to kitchen duty (all that soaking in detergent and stuff - ya know).

RL
 
I may want to add what Ray sort of hinted on...most knifemakers will sharpen using their belt grinder. Sharpening for us is no big deal. The guy that is 30 miles from no where with a bull elk down, sharpening will become an issue.

Schools of though on this are to have a knife that has extremely good edge retention but hard as the dickens to sharpen but should last long enough to dress one animal.

~Or to have a little softer knife that is much easier to sharpen in the field.

~Or to have the closest to the best of both worlds. In that category I can only think of some of the simple carbon steels and alloyed steels such as 52100 or even 5160.
 
For sharpening in the field, both EZ Lap and DMT have the credit card diamond sharpeners that you can carry in your wallet. Don't leave home without it. They are great for touching up an edge while in the field. I use the fine as I don't need to set the edge and actually, about twice a year is all that I ever use the belt when sharpening.

rlinger; I never let the kids or wife put a knife in the suds. A bad habit that will cut some one when reaching into the water or dishwasher. A sharp knife is a great tool for cutting and dangerous as hell when you can't see it. That just happens to be what I do at home. I have some knives of D2, 1070, 52100, 15N20, some sort of band saw, a long blade of some kind of stainless (very hard) that was given to me and I put a handle on it, and all are used. I am just now thinking that I may be using my kitchen for the testing lab for edge holding on my knives :).
On grinding D2, it grinds very well when it reaches a certain temperature but is hard to hold bare handed :). It is hard to maintain the temperature for good grinding and keep it cool too.
 
Originally posted by rlinger
Rhino,

You do you have much corrosion problems with the ATS-34 for kitchen use?? I suppose not if you make it for that. Some have said it corrodes easier than others. I like ATS-34 but have not put one to kitchen duty (all that soaking in detergent and stuff - ya know).

the ats-34 will rust easier than 440c. thats why i moved to the 440c for most of the culinary stuff. the ats-34 has about 30% more edge retention and seems about 30% easier to rust. i talk with my clients and get a feel for which one will suit them better. i tell them not to leave in water and dishwashing machines void the warrentty on the handle:mad:. the detergent for dish washing machines will rust and ruin the edge on any steel over time.
Click to expand...
 
Rhino, jolly good.

Only a very few people, I believe, will treat one or a set of kitchen knives special from all the rest of kitchen utensils. Invariably, and regardless, if it is in a house for house hold use it will be soaking along with the forks, plates and all other things - maybe not at first but it will be.

That's my pesimistic view of it anyhow.

RL
 
I hate to bring this up here, but I have been putting my cutco :rolleyes: knives in the dishwasher for 12 years now and there has been no rusting, no pitting, no handle problems, nothing. I sent them off to be sharpened for the first time a few months ago.

I'm not pushing the product, just reporting the results.

I started a thread a while back about dishwasher safe handle materials and was able to come up with a few, but most were not safe for the average maker to use (dust inhalation).


cutco - (again, not pushing the product) - can come up with a design that can be run through the dishwasher...why can't we do it too?

I don't know. I haven't been around long enough, I guess, to know better.

No rant, no tirade here. Just searching for answers...




Rhino - I'd be real interested in the feedback you have regarding the kitchen knives you made and sold - and what customers have to say 2 or 3 years down the road. Do people still put them in the dishwasher anyway? Do you end up having to redo handles a lot, etc.? Do you ever get requests for resharpening, etc.?


Dan
 
Uh, just because the knife shouldn't go in the dishwasher, doesn't make it inferior to Cutco, despite what the brain-washed sale tactics of their reps tell you.

Knifemakers "come up with" designs every day that are just as good and better than those knives. What baffles me, is why so many are incapable of taking two seconds to wipe down a flat piece of steel, dry it and put it away. :rolleyes:
 
Re: cutco :barf:

Like I said - not pushing the product (must not have mentioned that enough...:footinmou )



why so many are incapable of taking two seconds to wipe down a flat piece of steel, dry it and put it away.
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I have a simple answer to your question:

(Ok, it's really just more questions :rolleyes: )


How many times in the last month did you do the dishes? ;)
...and how many times did your spouse do them? :eek:

or "How hard is it to put the toilet seat down?"

or "How hard is it to walk the trash out to the street?"


I could just as easily say "It only take a few minutes to get up from the table and do the dishes or take out the trash and only a few seconds to drop the toilet seat down".

:p
 
Okay, you got me on the toilet seat part. :p I just hate Cutco. Hearing the word is like raking your nails across the chalk board. But, I'm still right about the dishwasher. :cool:
 
Yeah - I hear ya. I tried them out for about 2 weeks - a good test of your "conscience lag"... My sister in law got quite wrapped up in - going to training sessions, out-of-state conferences, etc. When she finally came off the high, it wasn't pretty. Poor girl. Tried to warn her, but something about 20-yr-olds...sure don't like to listen. :rolleyes:


Ok, Roger - I'm done hijacking your thread. :D
 
Good thread, Roger. When it comes to holding an edge, I think one
has to consider what medium is being cut. I have not tried CPM S30V
yet, but I have been very impressed with a knife I made of CPM 3V. It was heat treated by Paul Bos to an HRC of 61-62. I first became impressed with it when I blazed a trail in the woods of a couple of hundred yards. I knew the steel was tough, so I whacked at a lot of trees with it. When I checked the edge, it would still shave, if fact it was as if I hadn't used it. It is better than my old favorite D2.
I don't think 3V it is that hard to work either. Since I started using diamond sharpeners, I don't think " hard to sharpen " has much meaning.
 
MY Ol'Turkey Hunt'n buddy!!

I'll pull out my sheets on 3V. Very interesting, especially concidering the very high Rc value of your example. Thanks for the info.

Roger
 
Can't help but to chime in on the kitchen notion... I've made two blades for the kitchen, it just simply is not my gift to fit the culinary hand as opposed to the hunters hand. However, the two have incredible handles for the service. I'm quite impressed with both. One is cocobolo and the other is mesquite. That's right, mesquite. The cocobolo will tend to leave a rust orange stain if left in a puddle on the counter top, but has shown no signs of water abuse (though I show it no special favors). The mesquite is not the prettiest of grains, but has held up better than I could have ever imagined a handle in water use would. The old hickories absorb water and stain over time, the mesuite seems impervious and has not lost its luter in three or four years.

Sorry about the redirect, just seemed to fit in here....

Dan
Bearpaw Knives
 
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