What is the toughest Stainless Steel today? (Niolox, Elmax, Vanax,s35,cpm154)

What about H1...doesn't hold an edge all that well in PE but is very malleable...:p
 
You want a tough blade steel, go find an authentic Masai sword (not the short ones made from old machetes, but the actual swords.) I used to have one, and you could literally bend it into horse-shoe shapes, then back into a blade, and it would not break. Didn't hold an edge for more than a few minutes, but that's some of the toughest metal I think you can get :p

I think it's cause they aren't always heat treated. Like, at all. they're not much different than a piece of iron...
 
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Because some have said INFI is A8 or LSS CHIPPER (AKA A8 mod)
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Good find michaelm466!

kevo711 said:
Wow that is crazy, do you have a link of that video
Would you say that it is tougher than elmax?
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Since you want to see videos.

[video=youtube;qgOLDW15y8M]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgOLDW15y8M[/video]

[video=youtube;07PP9EQQCcA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07PP9EQQCcA[/video]

Nitrobe 77. A really interesting steel that is VERY stainless and very tough from what I have seen and to the makers I have spoken with that have used it. However, there is only limited stock in the world.

[video=youtube;8UQ2oRRYK_s]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UQ2oRRYK_s[/video]
 
I was surprised to read this thread- we basically steered off from SS to ultra toughness and nobody even mentioned about H13 until michaelm466 put up those graphs.
I have both S7 and H13 in chopper and axe respectively and according to a Master Smith, he tested both and found they have almost the same characteristics.

Both aren't know for edge retention and high wear so why strive for that?
Can you afford the price charged on Elmax? Are you looking at the right steel and HT for the right application?

There's no blade that can do it all. That's why we have variety. It will be uber boring if we have just one.
 
H13 likely wasn't mentioned due to its lack of visibility in knives. Being a hot work steel that only reaches the low 50s in hardness, it probably isn't very common in suitable sheets nor particularly popular with makers. How do you like it in that axe? I didn't care much for S7, and would like to try S5 to get something with some more hardness (and better toughness to boot, too bad it has lower availability)
 
hardheart said:
How do you like it in that axe? I didn't care much for S7, and would like to try S5 to get something with some more hardness (and better toughness to boot, too bad it has lower availability)
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I will test it out once i make time for it. Will be testing on concrete though.

S5 is limited and expensive as well.
 
hardheart said:
H13 likely wasn't mentioned due to its lack of visibility in knives. Being a hot work steel that only reaches the low 50s in hardness, it probably isn't very common in suitable sheets nor particularly popular with makers. How do you like it in that axe? I didn't care much for S7, and would like to try S5 to get something with some more hardness (and better toughness to boot, too bad it has lower availability)
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I think Scrapyard knives uses a modify S7 and its pretty good, but what about using Cpm 1V
http://www.simplytoolsteel.com/images/PM-CW-Comparison-chart.jpg
http://www.nsm-ny.com/images/toolsteels.jpg
 
gine said:
What about H1...doesn't hold an edge all that well in PE but is very malleable...:p
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This was my second thought amongst cutlery steels, with soft 420J2 being first. Of course, in cutlery we want other qualities in balance with our toughness, such as hardness, fine grain structure, stain resistance, wear resistance, and so on. As mentioned early in the thread the 300 series of austenitic stainlesses are very tough but too soft for knife edges.
 
i've always been super curious about this as well... and the guys i sell my fixed blades to will agree, as will most (i think; just my opinion) that i'm not looking for a sharpened prybar type steel that you can run over with a train and fold in half but can't cut twine, but one that will hold a good edge, and can take a severe beating. this might sound stupid to some, but i'm still looking for a stainless to replace what im using for my "hard use" fixed blades and can't decide which one. Mostly in the name "being able to stand behind my knives" i've hammered one of my knives through car doors, 4 pieces of aluminum deck plate, batonned through solid hardwood and cut a deer antler in half with no visible damage... and it's just plain 440c. So i guess my question is, which steel would be better for this kind of activity?
 
Rustyrazor, those tests are fairly demanding, and you are doing them with a steel that is not known for toughness. Might I suggest you refine the question a little. What steel will do all these things with a thinner, better cutting cross section? The structure of 440c is fairly coarse w/ regard to grain size and carbide size. A steel with lower carbon, finer carbides, lower volume of carbides, and finer grain should handle these things with a more cutting optimized geometry, if thats what you're after. You will loose some abrasion resistance, but Im not sure thats all that valuable in a knife used for rough work. I'd suggest 420hc or AEBL or one of the medium carbon Sandvic steels.
 
rustyrazor said:
i've hammered one of my knives through car doors, 4 pieces of aluminum deck plate, batonned through solid hardwood and cut a deer antler in half with no visible damage... and it's just plain 440c.
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I'm curious about this too. I had previously concluded that 440C was a good compromise. Toughness vs. hardness is mostly a tradeoff- you get good toughness and hardness suffers (less edge-holding). You get good edge holding and toughness suffers (blade gets more brittle). It seems that some steels can bias this tradeoff one way or the other, or slightly improve both sides at the same time. I've also read that besides the steel chemistry, the heat treat and the blade geometry are also important in how a knife performs for various tasks. If your knives survived the torture tests you described then you probably are doing well with geometry and heat treat as well.

Some people like knives with thin blades for slicing. Those knives aren't going to be good for prying or chopping no matter what steel you use. OTOH a thick blade with proper steel can be used for much rougher stuff and still survive, but might not be as good for slicing a tomato. If you are in a do or die situation and your sharp knife that is a good slicer breaks its blade then you are in trouble. If you are never going to be in that situation then you don't have to worry about how tough your blade steel is. I've read the stories about guys cutting their way out of wrecked cars and burning buildings. I've also read about guys breaking blades while cutting drywall. In my own experience I've never broken a blade but I own some handed down knives with broken blades. Also I have a thin prybar that I've beat on and pryed with a lot and never once thought it was going to break or chip. I know that a knife is for cutting but if it all the tool that you have and you need to pry open a door then it is better for you if the knife does that without breaking. I work in a highrise office building and the only somewhat tough knife I own is a Cold Steel SRK, but it is here next to my desk in case I need to cut my way out of this building during a fire. Also with the knife is another one of those cheap but almost-indestructible prybars that I mentioned above. The only knife on my wish list right now is a small fixed blade that I can EDC but with enough thickness and sufficient steel that I could use it to pry open a door if I had to.

I have watched the destruction tests on youtube, mostly from a now gone knife test site, and I found it interesting that some of the expensive "survival" knives with expensive and fancy steel broke early in the tests while some of the cheap carbon steel and even in one case a stainless steel knife took almost everything and survived. IIRC the Infini steel was one of the ones that broke early.
 
darkaether said:
if you mean INFI then you definitely do not recall correctly
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I may or may not recall correctly and that website is no longer available to consult with. I'm pretty sure it was a large Busse knife but I'm not familiar enough with the brand to know what other steels they might use.
 
it was a Busse FFBM, and it was the hardest knife to break that Noss ever tested. He also tested a Skinny ASH1 @ 3/16" that also did very well. They are both INFI.

Jerry has also used or heat treated A2, D2, 154CM, SR77(S7), SR101(52100), m-INFI, and hopefully a custom heat treat for the Scrapyard ELMAX but that hasn't been verified one way or another that I know of.

INFI and SR101 also did very well in Cliff Stamp's tests which also disappeared. The Noss videos are back up on YouTube.
 
bdmicarta said:
I may or may not recall correctly and that website is no longer available to consult with. I'm pretty sure it was a large Busse knife but I'm not familiar enough with the brand to know what other steels they might use.
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There's no question about whether or not you recall correctly. You do not.

All busse and bussekin knives tested by Noss made it through his standard battery of tests with little or no damage. The FFBM actually had to be hammered through a steel pipe 3 times before finally breaking when it hung up in a weld and got pounded until it broke

Refer to the video below.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irEZB8hvGzw
 
BePrepared said:
There's no question about whether or not you recall correctly. You do not.
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It's hard to go back and recreate my memories when the site isn't available anymore. Some of his videos are available on youtube but some aren't. I did find of the videos still on youtube that the Chris Reeve Green Beret seemed to break pretty easily. That could be the one that I was remembering, but he tested a lot of knives that no longer have videos remaining on youtube. The Busse FFBM went through an awful lot before it broke, even more so for the Busse skinny ash. Nevertheless the $25 Cold Steel and Cheaper-Than-Dirt knives did about as well.
 
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