What makes a $400 folder worth it?

I believe, no knife can cost 400 $, or makes it worth of it. I would never buy a knife with such prize. With such a prize, I would get a new chainsaw (Stihl) and not just a knife. The highest prize I ever payed for a knife was about 130,00 bucks...

Not even a Custom knife would afford such a prize. Can´t be made of such materials and such stuff to ensure that knife.

A knife, in the first state is just a tool... nothing less or more...

Kind regards
 
Why is the Manufacturing Quality Award given each year? YOU may not have the desire or capacity to understand it I reckon. Believe it or not the parameters are simple... Fit/Finish, Materials, and the WAY those materials are used. If the Sebenza is the yardstick to which other folding knives are made (& whether you like it or not or can understand it or not - it IS) then this award, as given to CRK around NINE years is proof. Otherwise, the proof is in the pudding. The pudding can be described to death... The recipe, the method...'everything. To be convinced that you know what you are talking about having never tasted it is just plain unreasonable. Any post here that contains an opinion based on ZERO experience is null and void. You are wasting your own and any readers time.
 
Confederate said:
A revolver with tighter tolerances is demonstrably better than those that don't
Click to expand...

Only to a certain extent.
Once you get past a certain level of precision, it makes practically zero difference...kinda like with an expensive knife.
 
HJK said:
You have to ask yourself, why is anything worth more than another thing?
Why is a Porsche worth more than a Hyundai?
Part of it is status and prestige.
Part of it is superior materials, engineering and quality.
Part of it is superior performance.
Part of it is the fact that it costs much more and takes longer to make.

The hyundai will do almost everything a porsche turbo will do in the real world and most of what the porsche will do most people really can't use.

But you also have to appreciate that a custom knife is also an artistic creation that has an intangible value like any work of art that is difficult to explain and sometimes hard to justify. Especially when your wife finds out ;)


The people who say it boils down to what the market will pay are correct, of course, although if the market won't pay what it costs to make plus a reasonable profit, nobody will make them anymore. But it really boils down to the value it has to you for your own personal needs and tastes. It's all a very mature and sophisticated confluence of factors.
Besides, my custom can kick your Chinese knockoff's ass any day :)
Click to expand...

What he said! :cool:

+

I buy knives that interest me and broaden my hobby diversity, just like my art, cigars, wine, cars etc. In the last months I bought knives ranging in price from a $7 china 710, a $25 CRKT Drifter, a $150 Esee fixed blade , to $200 Spyderco, to an $400 AG Russell Acies, to a birthday gift $800 William Henry custom, all which I love and use for differnt reasons and enjoy equally.

You have luckily found the right place and got some great answers from some knowledgeable folk who continue to further educated me on what I will buy next.
 
jimnolimit said:
i also happen to be a car guy, so i'll make a car analogy. what makes a $400 dollar knife $400 is the same thing that makes a ferrari F430 3-times more expensive than a Z06 corvette. IMO, there are 3 major factors that influence a knife's price:

1. attention to detail/fit and finish.
2. materials. expensive materials or materials that are harder to work with.
3. country of origin

personally, i tend to gravitate toward "best bang for the buck". before i get a knife i think about how i'm going to use it/what role will it fill and a general price im willing to spend. then i look for getting the most knife i can.
Click to expand...

I'd like to add another factor, in my opinion uniqueness is a factor. I don't want to spend $400 and see that everyone and their brother has the same knife. Yes the Sebbies are nice, they are beyond nice and I will eventually own one but what gets my money first is something unique and or custom built for me. If I want a Sebbie I just go to his website and purchase one , sure I might have to wait a while and it will be unique to other sebbies but I can still easily attain one. I just purchased my first $400 knife ( my others were close ) a Warren Thomas Model 2. To me it fits all my catagories , Carbon fiber, Ti, G10 and they are pretty hard to come by.
 
The quality is remembered long after the price is forgotten. Typically a $400+ knife has more in materiel-design and effort than a cheap knife. That is not to say that a cheap knife like a Buck 100 isn't useful at times.
If you want a good watch-pen-knife or whatever why shouldn't
you have them?
 
people must also consider that there is a point where art exceeds function. there are plenty of knives in the $75-$200 range that will function/perform just as good as a $400+ knife, but the level of finish/attention/art isn't going to be equal. if you only consider performance/function, no knife is really worth $400+. you must also consider "art" when dealing with high-end/expensive knives.

everyone has a max price point for a type of product. some people can't see spending $50-$100 on a pocket knife because they can get pocket knives for $5-$10. others see the level of detail, materials, craftsmanship, exclusivity in a high-end product. do i own a $400+ knife, no. will i ever buy a $400+ knife, probably not. but i do understand and appreciate the art of high-end products.
 
As the device becomes more complex the difference between the cheap and the expensive becomes more glaring. The car analogy doesn't work for this reason .... at all. Using common measures an expensive car can be double, triple or ten times as capable as the cheaper car. Any common test for hammers, however, would likely not yield a noticeable difference in performance at all regardless of cost. Knives are very close to hammers. Marginal improvement in performance rapidly decreases with increases in price.

Explaining the reward of owning a $400 knife is always going to be like nailing jello to the wall. The marginal increase in performance of those last hundreds won't do it.
 
Last edited:
Mal2 said:
Explaining the reward of owning a $400 knife is always going to me like nailing jello to the wall. The marginal increase in performance of those last hundreds won't do it.
Click to expand...

I've heard this so many times from people around me I just repeat a quote to explain it;

"they're not something you buy with your head, you buy them with your heart because you love them - and who can explain love? - Jeremy Clarkson
 
Like some of you have mentioned, it is more about the passion of collecting some of these handmade pieces of art. The same can be said pretty much about a lot of things that we all collect. If you want a knife just to cut something, then pretty much anything will do, some cut better than others though. If you want a piece of art that you can carry, possibly use on occasion and maybe pass along to you kid when he grows up then more money can justifiably be spent. These same issues come up in a couple of other things I like to collect, guns and flashlights. If you just want a handgun to shoot , there are many inexpensive options. But if you want a customized work of art to hold in your hand then for me the 1911 is the way to go. I've got one customized production gun and one that is being custom built. They are 3-4 times what a run of the mill Glock or S&W M&P is, but will last me a lifetime and be heirlooms. Same goes with my flashlights, sure I have a couple of production "tactical" lights but I also collect custom hand made titanium lights that so far have cost $100 more than my most expensive custom light. Bottom line is you buy what you love and can afford. If you just need to use something to cut , shoot or light up there are many inexpensive options that will get the job done.
 
You know what I'd go for? A $400 knife with most of it geared towards raw performance.

To be honest, I'm more than satisfied with the fit and finish on my ZT 0551 at $200. If you take another $200 and crank up the performance more even to the point of it not being practical anymore(better edge retention than S90V), I would buy it. Not that I'm suggesting that ZT do this, since it's catered towards military and police use and none of them would shell out $400 for a duty knife.

What I'm suggesting is that there is a market for super performers. I get the feeling that Spyderco's Para2 in S90V would still sell for $200-$250 on the secondary market if the handles were just regular G10. Perhaps not a big market for them, but they would sell.

Oh but damn, I just described Busse knives in one post huh:thumbup:?
 
"Bear in mind that RYP has basically been laughed off of the forum. His DPX folder will in no way run circles around any $400 folder. Except perhaps in his personal opinion."

How do you get "laughed" off a forum?

When you actually use a HEST/F and understand the customer service that comes with the knife you might be a believer. A lifetime knife purchase is the sum of many parts.
 
bhyde said:
...I have been a machinist for many years...I have ran manual machines as well as programmed and run CNC's of many types...I can tell you that there are good days and bad days. So I respect the amount of work that goes into making these fine tools, from the engineering- to the manufacturing/construction..There is alot of work involved..Not to mention, people like myself do not make McMinimum wage..The tooling to construct these tools are not cheap. The machines are not cheap,- There is nothing cheap about machining whatsoever.
Click to expand...


I was waiting for this. Lots of posts about "eye of the beholder". but - a 400 dollar knife based on the amount of work that goes into it, the original design, the alpha and beta tests, then the actual hand work involved, the machine programming, etc.

These machines as this poster said - are not cheap. they are in fact incredibly expensive, especially when you want to get quick enough to do "semi production" runs...

Now - an experienced machinist is paid for their time, around here they make 23 - 40+ an hour (depending on experience) Now - start doing some math.

How long did it take them to make that knife? - from DESIGN --> BUILD --> FINISH. 10 hours? 15? 20?

Now - material cost - the lowest of ALL of these things, but still need to be counted. A Chris Reeve Sebenza probably has...40 dollars in material costs per knife (a guess based on titanium slabs, steel block, screws, pivots, washers, etc) but that still is a cost that needs to be looked at.

now - keep in mind that everyone is entitled to make profit - not to break even but to make money doing what they do, and producing what they produce.


400 bucks is not that much when you see this perspective. Think about how much that is an hour vs. how long it takes them to make your knife to the exacting specifications you are demanding for a high end piece.

keep in mind how many they make/don't make also.


Now spyderco, benchmade, sog, cold steel - they produce knives in larger quantities, larger runs = lower prices. Material cost differences in these runs however weigh largly into the price - more so than custom knives.

I will also throw my snobbery in here for a second. The fit and finish on SOME high end knives is amazing, and production companies can not come close. There are some high end knives however where the fit and finish is not that good, but they are known for other things (Strider for example...not that well made - sorry. and EARLIER Hinderers...no where near what he makes now) and some "high end" knives are just names (I'm looking at you custom Emersons - 2000 for a prestige??? - NO.)

As Far as spyderco's go - I just don't like them that much. I have 5 of them, and I'm just not that impressed ONCE I went to higher end stuff, but there are many people that love them and thats cool because passion is an amazing thing.

Just remember - 400 bucks for a knife, there was blood sweat, tears, and time put into that design to sell it to you.

What is YOUR time worth? What are your ideas worth? When you think of it this way it becomes amazing that any custom knife can be sold for under 400 at all...
 
Good post by Bearcut

Baseline:
Cheap Chinese folder- $10-15
RESULT: A barely usable knife or an unsafe POS, it depends. Most people feel they get their moneys worth, if barely.

An inexpensive knife- $25-$45 (CRKT, low end Spyderco, BM, Kershaw etc).
RESULT: Huge difference. The knife should function reasonably well. Most people feel they get their moneys worth. There is some satisfaction and pride in these purchases. Almost no buyers remorse or diminishing returns here.

Low to mid grade folder- $50-100, (Spyderco, BM, Kershaw, CS, etc.)
RESULT: Really big difference. Now you are getting very good construction and higher end blade steel. People are happy with these offerings, they get a good product that could last many, many years. No buyers remorse, and almost no diminishing returns on this class.

Mid to high end production folder- $ 125-250: (Al Mar, ZT, Fallkniven, Emerson, Spyderco, BM, etc)
RESULT: People start to see what the fuss is all about. These are nice knives. A person jumping from a $60 folder will immediately see the difference and understand why he paid so much for the knife. These are knives that you could hand to a total non-knife person and they would probably comment on how nice a knife it is. These are so close to high-end offerings that there is really no practical need to spend anymore for a superb quality folder. Lot’s of pride of ownership involved with this class of folder. Material quality, and construction, is top notch. Blade steel is near, or at the highest level available. The average person knows they paid a lot for the knife, but probably feel they got their moneys worth and would recommend them to others. Probably not too much buyers remorse if the person could afford it in the first place. Diminishing returns are more prevalent at this point.

High end Production folders- $300-500: ( CRK, Strider, Hinderer, etc.)
RESULT: These knives are the epitome of production craftsmanship. Everything (should) be tight, smooth and strong.

But, there is not that much immediate difference between this price point and the $125-250 price point.You could hand one of these knives over to a non-knife person and they may comment on how nice the knife is. If you told them how much it costs, they would probably be shocked and think you were crazy for paying so much for a knife.

You are not getting twice the knife for the money. Most of the cost involved for these knives are for things you can’t even see; tight tolerances, warranty, prestige. Spyderco, Kershaw/ZT and BM make several knives that are more exciting, different, and fun than these knives, for a lot less money. Things you can see in other words.

A person going from a $60 folder may truly wonder why the heck he paid so much for a knife that may not seem all that great. The quality may be obvious, but not for the extra $300 they just dropped. The knife may have annoying traits, (Strider break-in), be much thicker and heavier than he is used to, (Hinderer), or may just seem plain and unexciting compared to his other folders, (CRK). There may be major buyers remorse.

Bottom line, buy what you like, with a design that appeals to you. Forget about the price.
Bragging rights only last so long.

Here is also something else to consider

I posted this on a local forum discussing an AK-47.

On another note, I wont consider the AK as a top end knife. I can understand to some the price seems to justify this, but compared to something from William Henry, Chris Reeve and the knives in the $200 to $400 price bracket, where fit and finish on every knife is kept to 0.0001 of a mm and the steel alloy has better properties then AUS8 (a good steel in its own right) is high end. Just my thoughts.

But then again you wont see much improvement performance wise between a R1750 knife and a R5000 knife when doing cutting taks. The difference in steel can increase the price, fit and finish, materials used for handles.

The best way I can show this is by using this graph.

Pricevsperformance.jpg


Between a R300 knife and a R1500 knife there is a big difference between fit and finish, design, performance while cutting, steel etc. But as the price goes up the performance tend to plain out and you start paying for aesthetics, materials such as ivory and engraving etc.

In all fairness this ZT will cut just as well as my Sebenza that costs twice as much, but the Sebenza in its appeal and what it means to me is what makes it worth twice as much. I know we should not put so much value on material things but aaah well. It is my luxury item. I dont see the need to own R6000 cellphone, a R13000 computer, my friends do, I dont. Its difference in taste.


At the end if you cant justify the price then do not buy it. look at my signature. All that I can say is start grinding and making your own knives. You get a quicker idea of just how difficult it is to get everything perfect.
 
Excellent posts guys though I would take issue with Bearcut in that no one deserves anything for his time. Only for the final outcome. If I work really hard at creating a painting all I have done is ruin a good frame and a piece of canvas no matter how much time I spent at it. My labor just can't be counted unless the buyer is just being charitable and that will never last.

Nice chart marthinus. Very descriptive of marginal utility per unit cost and likely very good when I figured out the value of a rand.
 
Mal2 said:
Excellent posts guys though I would take issue with Bearcut in that no one deserves anything for his time. Only for the final outcome. If I work really hard at creating a painting all I have done is ruin a good frame and a piece of canvas no matter how much time I spent at it. My labor just can't be counted unless the buyer is just being charitable and that will never last.

Nice chart marthinus. Very descriptive of marginal utility per unit cost and likely very good when I figured out the value of a rand.
Click to expand...

Just take one zero away and put a $ in front of the price. Really not that accurate, only to illustrate my thoughts.

(currency calculators work well: http://www.x-rates.com/calculator.html ;) )
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top