What makes a $400 folder worth it?

[Knife Outlet]

What makes a $400 worth it? Simple. It is the desire to have one and the availability of $400 in discretionary funds.

 

[sheepdog229]

My .02: needing a $400 knife is like needing a Porsche or Ferrari.

What makes them worth it - people could cite many things but it all comes down to exclusivity.

 

[ADD]

have you looked at the DPx HEST/F ? $175 and runs circles around most $400 knives.

Name them...

Invalid opinion coming from the owner of dpx.

"Bear in mind that RYP has basically been laughed off of the forum. His DPX folder will in no way run circles around any $400 folder. Except perhaps in his personal opinion."

How do you get "laughed" off a forum?

When you actually use a HEST/F and understand the customer service that comes with the knife you might be a believer. A lifetime knife purchase is the sum of many parts.

Still waiting for you to name them.

Enthusiasts will throw around opinions all the time, often based on personal use or allegiance to a brand.

But many makers have been putting out quality knives for a looong time.
It is their livelihood.

For another competitor, particularly one new to the business, to throw around claims and braggadocio like that without naming the other knives, well it clouds the lot them as inferior.
May perhaps even effect their business.

So now, please back up your claim/opinion and name most of the $400 knives that get "run circles around" by your offering...

 

[ForestRoamer]

have you looked at the DPx HEST/F ? $175 and runs circles around most $400 knives.

HAHA that is funny. That knife won't run circles around anything. RYP is trying to trick someone that is new to the knife world into thinking it is such a great knife, but he doesn't mention he makes the knife. What a joke.

 

[Capolan]

HAHA that is funny. That knife won't run circles around anything. RYP is trying to trick someone that is new to the knife world into thinking it is such a great knife, but he doesn't mention he makes the knife. What a joke.

let me ask you this -- and i'm not defending anyone here --

if RYP didn't make this knife, would anyone have mentioned it anyways?

i'm wondering about the design,quality,materials etc of this unit.

how does it stack up against a
benchmade or ZT or Extrema Ratio for example? I don't know, i'm honestly asking...


also - when he says "...circles around 400.00 knives" -- what knives (Besides Chris Reeve) is he talking? how many 400 dollar semi-custom knives are out there??

 

[Medic1210]

also - when he says "...circles around 400.00 knives" -- what knives (Besides Chris Reeve) is he talking? how many 400 dollar semi-custom knives are out there??

Just a guess, but I would assume he's referring to Hinderer XM-18, Sebenza or Umnumzaan, and Strider just to name a few.

 

[Capolan]

Just a guess, but I would assume he's referring to Hinderer XM-18, Sebenza or Umnumzaan, and Strider just to name a few.

LOL! - those few I know.... I was wondering about others I don't know....

I would think the canon of 400 and up folders

1. reeve sebenza
2. reeve umnumzaan
3. strider SNG
4. hinderer xm-18
5. demko AD-10


I was curious of OTHER ones out there for personal research -- Ralph?, Elishiwitz, John W Smith, joel chamberlin, -- I dunno...i'm curious of other "super folders" that I should be aware of...

my take on these in simple terms
1. sebenza - LOVE IT, brilliant knife, fit and finish is outstanding, blade quality and grind is perfect for EDC, just an outstanding knife.
2. umnumzaan - didn't care for it, bulkier than sebenza, frame lock placement made the knife unmanageable for me.
3. strider -- sloppy finish, some lock up iffy and way too early. (I want a tight lock up - sebenza - CLANK lock bar flush every time. ) for a knife with this kind of price premium -- they should be made with much better tolerances.
4. Hinderer xm-18 -- I have not played with one yet -- i have seen that some of them lock up way too early for my tastes - and don't lock deep enough. I have played with OLD Hinderer knives, and they didn't impress me - not nearly to the level of what I've seen on the xm-18
5. Demko - Mine is on order. I'm eager to play with what may be the strongest folder ever made...

After these....who else?

 

[Capolan]

Excellent posts guys though I would take issue with Bearcut in that no one deserves anything for his time. Only for the final outcome. If I work really hard at creating a painting all I have done is ruin a good frame and a piece of canvas no matter how much time I spent at it. My labor just can't be counted unless the buyer is just being charitable and that will never last.

Nice chart marthinus. Very descriptive of marginal utility per unit cost and likely very good when I figured out the value of a rand.

not quite true. labor is paid hourly regardless of the direct end result. how it is paid is based upon a sale of the finished product. you always calculate labor costs.

And - you always calculate not just the immediate labor costs but the price of your experience.

Picasso was sitting outside a coffee shop in paris, enjoying the day, when a rather loud woman came up to him and with a flurish declared him to be the famous artist Picasso. He said hello and exchanged pleasentries with her. She then said "sir, would you sketch me?" - He agreed and 10 min later or so the woman was holding a lovely sketch of herself. As he handed it to her he told her the price. She was visably upset by this notion and declared "but...but it only took you 15 minutes!". To which picasso replied - "No madam, it took me all of my life."


Skills of artisans are not fixed bid - you pay for their expertise and time and their right to make a profit. Artists are entitled to ask for whatever they feel their work is worth, and as buyers we are entitled to say "no"

 

[Mal2]

not quite true. labor is paid hourly regardless of the direct end result. how it is paid is based upon a sale of the finished product. you always calculate labor costs.

And - you always calculate not just the immediate labor costs but the price of your experience.

Picasso was sitting outside a coffee shop in paris, enjoying the day, when a rather loud woman came up to him and with a flurish declared him to be the famous artist Picasso. He said hello and exchanged pleasentries with her. She then said "sir, would you sketch me?" - He agreed and 10 min later or so the woman was holding a lovely sketch of herself. As he handed it to her he told her the price. She was visably upset by this notion and declared "but...but it only took you 15 minutes!". To which picasso replied - "No madam, it took me all of my life."


Skills of artisans are not fixed bid - you pay for their expertise and time and their right to make a profit. Artists are entitled to ask for whatever they feel their work is worth, and as buyers we are entitled to say "no"

Excellent post sir but I obviously disagree.

Labor may indeed be paid incrementally on an hourly basis but in the broad sense, not in any production oriented endeavor. A laborer may well be paid an hourly wage to make knives but if he makes none or no one will buy them; the pay is short lived. A union man might well explain that the price of an object reflects the labor involved but the economist would disagree explaining that supply and demand will set the price. Hourly labor involved will affect the price only as it affects the supply and demand. The cost of labor is used (calculated) to decide if an endeavor is economically feasible or to set an initial asking price but profit and thus a viable business only comes as a result of supply and demand determining price.

Similarly, as in your Picasso story, it might seem the skill of the worker affects the price when actually, again it does so only indirectly by affecting the demand and the supply. Who doesn't want an original Picasso or a Hinderer.

Indeed the artisan is free to ask what he thinks his labor is worth in either time, skill or experience, but that is just an empty wish. Nobody has the "right" to a profit. The buyer is totally in the driver's seat unless the artist just wants to collect his own art.

Though it is done all the time, it is very risky to try to fool the laws of supply and demand. Micro economics are really quite simple. I would argue that efficiency and art are the only free rides. If only macro economics could be corralled so easily......

But alas back to the $400 knife. It has to be art to be worth it; as a tool it is not. It solidly falls into your Picasso example. Utility wise it is a little difficult to even imagine the small Sebbie being worth 90 Sanrenmu 710's. They are a limited edition piece of art. The price is artificially high due to the limited supply, their artistic value and that last tiny increment of performance wrung out without regard to the large incremental cost of doing so. Additionally the superb customer service is seen as a form of insurance and has considerable value to many who buy them for that reason. CRK could gear up for mass production and easily sell a knife for $100 that would have all the attributes of the current knife but they just don't have to.

Don't get me wrong; I would love to own a Sebenza, have great regard for it and can afford it. I might well buy one someday. But even if I eventually spring for one; I would be lying to myself if I imagined it to be much more than just a very useful piece of "man jewelery".

 

[MORIMOTOM]

before he went mia a few months ago, tim galyean offered a pretty nice mid-tech in the $400+ range.

 

[bhyde]

And the argument continues..Are they worth it, or are they not worth it? It really doesn't matter at this point in time. Most of the companies involved in making high quality knives seem to be expanding to meet the demand.

Not that I don't love the debate as I had a similar one at work with some mech engineers. It went something like this: I am a programmer/machinist for my background. By and large, manufacturing has been sent to low wage economies. Generally, 3rd world, developing markets. That is fine, my job is a tangible asset that is costly to move. Let's flip this scenario around, shall we? How easy and cheap is it to send those mechanical engineering..Well, crap..I am limiting myself..Let's send engineering oversees to these same developing economies, regardless of quality. MUCH easier to send overseas in a digital world isn't it? How many jobs have this ability to just be gone?

Well crap...I digress, I have left the current discussion on a tangent....Or have I?

By the way, a portion of the cost you see in the making of anything is regulation.
Environmental: Dictates the use and disposal of hazardous and waste materials. Hrmm...Wonder how many of those materials are in a machine shop? (Other factors about cost I have listed elsewhere in this thread, or one very similar, so I won't waste time listing them again.)

I will leave this thread with one final thought. You may relate it to the macro/micro economics post ^^^ there. How long can a country that imports more than it exports sustain itself.

 

[Chrontius]

Just use em and get on with life.
Scratches add character.:thumbup:
Once you get it scratched a bit and resharpen it, you'll be good to go.
If I didn't use my expensive knives, then they wouldn't be worth it.

Quoted for truth.

But I can't help but, when it comes time to cut the lawnmower's axle free from vines and pine needles, pulling out my eBay knockoff Strider that's probably not even heat-treated, and maybe 420, and the diamond stone, and putting a disposable edge on that instead of wrecking a factory edge that's still quite useful and that I probably can't top or even reproduce with my red Diafold.

But then, hacking away at a steel axle probably constitutes more abuse than use, so maybe I'm still in the right ballpark.

 

[jimnolimit]

a $400+ knife is more jewelery than function. people own ferarri's not because they can get them from point A to point B, but because they are finely crafted pieces of machinery.

 

[Trex5588]

Sorry for being way off topic but for $ 400, if i had that kind of money the pocket jewelry EDC that i would get would be a SIG 238 380ACP pocket pistol. Talking about fit and finish these must be almost perfect to work properly. More moving parts than a pocket knife. I think value for dollar is more too.

 

[Mal2]

Yeah but if were talking that way I have put over 200,000 miles on a car I bought for just over $400. Certainly a bit more utility than cutting fruit or poking holes in paper. We gotta limit it to knives or it will go way off the track. $400 dog? Mail order wife?

 

[Capolan]

Excellent post sir but I obviously disagree.

....I would be lying to myself if I imagined it to be much more than just a very useful piece of "man jewelery".

You had many great points in here - I didn't want to just quote your whole post. I think we will disagree on some key fundamental aspects, but its nice that we can just disagree without name calling and judgements - i'm not use to a "kinder gentler" internet

i would agree on the jewlery part. Isn't that kind of the fun of it? A person wears a rolex sea dweller - the deepest that thing will go is maybe the pool at the gym. do they need it? GOD NO. or, better yet - a person wears a non-luxury brand dive watch that does the same thing as the rolex and is the same price (OR MORE!). they don't even get the "brand recongnition" of the rolex, just the quality. maybe some watch person will come up to them and say "WOW is that a "XXX" ??" and they can have their moment, but most people couldn't care less (I wear an ORIS - only watch people know what it even is, but i love the watch).

Sometimes people like fetish properties. I have a microtech d/a socom black TI that I really like to carry -- have i ever parachuted somewhere and had to take out a sentry with it? no - envelopes mainly, and those envelopes quaked in fear! could those envelopes and daily things have been done with say a ...15 dollar frost clutlery knife? OF COURSE!

in the end - its what you like and how much your "like" is worth to you. its all laws of diminishing returns at a point...

 

[Mal2]

Exactly. Those last increments you speak of are almost the definition of jewelery. "Need" to "like" to "fetish".

What separates "man jewelery" in most cases I think is that it almost always stems from some useful, some would say necessary, device. I suppose there is no way to really determine where it becomes jewelery because in many cases there is still some increment of performance increase in those last hundreds of dollars. I'm not too sure where mammoth ivory or abalone on a knife improves performance but it sure is purdy....

Though I find it a little difficult to bring myself to a $400 knife (or a $2000 watch), and reject most everything designed to impress anyone else; I really do understand those that value that sort of thing. Those differences are what makes life interesting.

 

[6leafdom]

the difference between a cheap and expensive knife is very much like a casio watch vs a IWC pilot watch. of course the casio is a very good and reliable watch and it can definitely get you by in terms of performing daily task. they are a great beater knife too. but expensive knives like the Chris Reeve Sebenza is like a fine piece of art. makes you proud of carrying it too. not to mention the material they uses out perform the materials on cheap knives. i own alot of cheap and expensive knives. my cheap ones are my beaters.

 

[Mal2]

...... my cheap ones are my beaters.

That seems often the case. When it comes to using the knife as a tool; the one best suited to abuse is spared the abuse ..... often because it cost $400. A $400 knife may well be worth $400 but often not for use or at least not for abuse as a knife. Often useless man jewelry. If I need to use the knife I carry I don't want to think twice about it being damaged or lost.

 

[Capolan]

That seems often the case. When it comes to using the knife as a tool; the one best suited to abuse is spared the abuse ..... often because it cost $400. A $400 knife may well be worth $400 but often not for use or at least not for abuse as a knife. Often useless man jewelry. If I need to use the knife I carry I don't want to think twice about it being damaged or lost.

This is a great point regarding damage. You can almost imagine a scene in a movie where the group is in trouble and someone says "hey, joe - use that super knife and open that damn door!!" and joe whines..."but i don't want to break it! it cost 400.00 -- don't you have a swiss army knife or something??"

essentially i hope that if at some point it comes down to a situation where i have to depend on my knife - i can do so. If that means the knife "dies" in the process - so be it I guess.

Now if you think about that, REALLY ponder it -- that is a rediculous, 1 in a miilion situation to be in for your average person.

Those millions of other things that are non peril based? -- I just like nice machinery. I like the precision of things. the snapping of the liner lock of a chris reeve is a satisfying sound, much like the "ahhhhh" one says after a nice refreshing drink. It's the sound of the hammer drawing back on a well oiled, well made revolver. Its the woosh sound when the turbo kicks in on ones car.

Its a noise and a sense that just makes me smile inside. And I know, if I don't lose it - it will make that noise forever.