What makes a Damascus desirable?

Patrice,
Many good points shared already. Most of the time we are making our knives for the customer and not ourself. Two points of advice I can give is that you stay in constant communication with your customers and know their desires of damascus choice. If your building what your customers likes then it's a win-win.

My personal tastes are tight and well controlled ladders and Turkish twists. All patterns can be done very poorly by even experienced veterans and also very well by a new maker who sought out good advice on pattern making. My last point of advice is to seek out the makers who do patterns well and communicate with them. You might be surprised how many will share their recipes with you.
 
Roger, I did not say that it does not perfom well, just that is does not perform any better than its component steels.
RogerP said:
I would have to strongly disagree with any suggestion that damascus generally does not perform well. Assuming all the other properties which impact performance are in place (heat treatment, blade geometry, edge geometry etc.) it can and will perform exceptionally well. One of my most-used knives is a damascus hunter by Burt Foster. I don't know that any more could be asked of a knife in terms of performance.

As for patterns - what I like about damsacus is the near infinite variety. I love the tight control of ladder or multi-bar twist. But I also love the shear, well, randomness of random damascus - it can give the steel an flowing, almost liquid quality.
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jdm61 said:
Roger, I did not say that it does not perfom well, just that is does not perform any better than its component steels.
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Exactly.
If all is done properly, 2+2=4 with regard to performance.
The extra work does not make 2+2 =5 in performance --- Beauty, yes. Historical interest, yes. But performance, no.

If your damascus has funky stuff in it or is made out of alloys that can't be HTd optimally in one protocol ---
--- then I'm afraid you're 2+2 will always be <4 with respect to performance compared with one premium steel at optimal HT.
 
Damascus - as we know it today - is an expression of tremendous skill, craftsmanship and even artistry. Let's not forget that the masters we admire today are generally using extremely clean alloys with very distinct chemistry - an option that was simply not available to smiths even a hundred years ago.

There's no question that in the last couple decades, many smiths have devised ways to make truly astounding patterns in layered steel. The most cursory review of recent books and periodicals will bring to light pattern-welded knives that are undeniably among the finest ever seen.

However... despite reams of claims to the contrary, I have yet to see any empirical evidence that "damascus" of any stripe truly out-performs modern monosteels. We simply don't see a lot of true "user" knives made of Damascus, and there's a reason for that.

I daresay that the inherent added value of modern Damascus lies entirely in the remarkable amount of skill, talent and labor that goes into it, and in the beautiful patterns that result.
 
Gabe (Newell) owns/owned Kevin Cashen's General Sherman cutting comp knife.
Made expressly for the purpose of showing a damascus blade can compete with homogenous steel.
That was like 2003.
Just thought I'd throw that out there.

Doug
 
Doug C said:
Gabe (Newell) owns/owned Kevin Cashen's General Sherman cutting comp knife.
Made expressly for the purpose of showing a damascus blade can compete with homogenous steel.
That was like 2003.
Just thought I'd throw that out there.

Doug
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Agreed - and I remember that knife. I more often hear the claim that damascus performs poorly than I hear any claim that it peforms better.
 
The caveat for any pattern welded steel or any forged blade for that matter is that thy perform well IF DONE PROPERLY. But then again, that is the case with any blade, no? Since I use .250 Aldo 1084 and .72 15N20 for my current mix, I think of my damascus in terms of say very good 1080 with a tiny bit of vanadium for controlling grain growth to some degree and say .6% nickel. which may or may not offer a slight improvement in toughness.
 
most knife enthusiasts will NEVER find the limits of even the most basic of steels.
a great many knife buyers are motivated to buy due to fashion, not performance.
I feel that discussions regarding 'performance' of steels are usually irrelevant.
 
jdm61 said:
The caveat for any pattern welded steel or any forged blade for that matter is that thy perform well IF DONE PROPERLY. But then again, that is the case with any blade, no? Since I use .250 Aldo 1084 and .72 15N20 for my current mix, I think of my damascus in terms of say very good 1080 with a tiny bit of vanadium for controlling grain growth to some degree and say .6% nickel. which may or may not offer a slight improvement in toughness.
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Exactly correct - the "if done properly" qualifier applies to any blade of any steel. But for some reason, damascus more than other steels seems to attract skepticism as to its ability to perform. This may be a result of the fact that it is found on a great many high end knives that are unlikely to see use. I find it relevant to keep addressing that misconception for just as long as it persists.
 
Lorien said:
most knife enthusiasts will NEVER find the limits of even the most basic of steels.
a great many knife buyers are motivated to buy due to fashion, not performance.
I feel that discussions regarding 'performance' of steels are usually irrelevant.
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This. Is. So. True.

As a maker, I have to be aware of what the new "it" steels are, and what of the traditional steels are still "en vogue" so that I can keep selling stuff but, assuming proper heat treatment, almost any good blade steel will perform to whatever level most users require. That said, I choose my steels for the best combination of economics and performance because I like to make the best knives I possibly and reasonably can.

I think the discussion of performance has derailed this thread a bit.

It's hard for me to get over the simple elegance of twist and ladder patterns. And feather. I love that stuff. A lot of other patterns just seem too busy and, in my mind can often make a knife less appealing than it might have been otherwise.
 
Travis Fry said:
I think the discussion of performance has derailed this thread a bit.
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Thanks Travis. Don't get me wrong, I am learning a lot but I was more curious about the visual aspects of Damascus. Probably could have said it better in my first post. :o

Thanks again for your input guys.
 
It is interesting to compare the performance of damascus to other types of blade steel (although the vast majority of knives shown on the forum will likely never be tested in use).

Having a couple of knives with damasteel blades, their booth at Blade last year was of interest. They have some really nice patterns and the steel is manufactured with a high concern for performance.

While the topic of the thread has evolved to the performance characteristics of damascus, the OP's question was NOT about performance! So far, NOBODY has said they like damascus because it cuts/performs better than other steels, the desirability is the "eye candy" factor Patrice.

Peter
 
I own and use damascus from Damasteel, Mike Norris, Chad Nichols, Devin Thomas, Rob Thomas, Brad Vice, and many M.S.'s. In my experience, they all perform well and are quality forged billets when delivered. To the OP, use with confidence if you choose to buy from the makers I listed. BUT, Damasteel is a cut above the rest.

Kris
 
I don't think anyone has said that PW steel that's made up of only high-performance, properly matched alloys can't perform with mono steels in the same class. Obviously they can.

My point is that all PW material is NOT created equally with regard to performance potential because of what is used in the mix.
To me, steel performance is primary.
When making tool intended for use with thin cross sections ... You bet performance of that steel is going to matter!
There's no reason (or excuse, IMO) to knowingly compromise performance when you don't HAVE to. There are plenty of high-performance PW materials available that don't require such compromise.
 
MT Damascus said:
BUT, Damasteel is a cut above the rest.
Kris
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That's a very broad and sweeping generalization.
Not trying to argue just very interested in the performance characteristics you allude to.
The stuff I've seen, tight controlled pattern looks very nice.
Looks great on guards and the furniture of some knives as well.

Also. are you referring to 3" to 4 1/2"(hunters, utilities). 7" - 12 1/2" (Bowies/fighters) and what stock thickness.
Do you find it performs better on the choppers, larger knives or the smaller knives ?
Almost started a thread on Damasteel a few years back but was worried about getting kicked off the internet or beheaded. :)

Couple of edits already hope this is taken in the spirit it was intended.

Doug
 
Doug, yes it is broad and sweeping generalization. I should have included IMO. I use Damasteel in the kitchen at 8.25 cutting edge, use it in the field on smaller fixed blades, use it in smaller folders, and last in the bathroom, razor. To me, only the razor does it not seem like the best for the job. Extremely corrosion resistant, sharpens up well and holds a great edge. I know Brad Vice has said it is better than his damascus, and Brad's damascus is top shelf. We all know Michael Walker uses it. I love the stuff. Hope that helps a little Doug
 
That was a great help, Kris.
Thanks for answering and so quickly ! :thumbup:

Doug
 
Forged Damascus Blades are put to the test each and every time an ABS Journeyman smith tests for his "Masters".

Applicants for Master Smith rating must test with a 300 layers of pattern welded Damascus blade with a maximum fifteen (15) inches in overall length, maximum two (2) inches wide, maximum of ten (10) inches blade length. The test blade must be a "stick tang" or hidden tang design. During the performance test, supervised by at least 1 Master Smith, the knife is tested on Rope Cutting, Wood Chopping, Shaving Hair and Bending.

1. ROPE CUTTING: THE PURPOSE OF THIS TEST IS TO TEST THE EDGE GEOMETRY AND SHARPNESS.
The applicant is responsible for supplying the test rope and ensuring that it is a minimum of
one (1) inch in diameter. If the applicant brings a larger rope, the applicant will be judged
using the same criteria as though the rope was one (1) inch in diameter. The rope is to be
hung in a safe manner, so that the end of the rope to be cut hangs loose without touching
the floor or any other object. As a safety precaution, the rope is not to be hand held by
another person during the rope-cutting test. The hanging end of the rope is to be marked
with tape or a marker to clearly indicate the area that is to be cut. The cut must be
approximately six (6) inches from the end of the free hanging rope. A minimum of one (1) cut
must be made. The applicant is to aim at the mark with a two (2) inch margin of high or low
being acceptable. The applicant must sever the rope in two with one stroke. If the applicant
fails on the first attempt, the Master Smith will allow two more attempts. However, if the
Master Smith believes that the failure to sever the rope is due to the lack of skill or strength of
the applicant, the Master Smith may attempt the rope cutting with the test knife. This is a test
of the applicant’s ability to make a knife, not his or her ability to cut with it. If neither the
applicant nor the Master Smith successfully cuts the rope, the applicant fails.

2. WOOD CHOPPING: THE PURPOSE OF THIS TEST IS TO DEMONSTRATE EDGE TOUGHNESS.
The chopping test is to be conducted with a 2x4 construction grade wood stud. The 2x4 may
be either hand held or clamped into a vise or other safety device. A chopping motion (no
whittling) is to be used. The 2x4 must be chopped completely through a minimum of two (2)
times. The applicant may choose the area of the 2x4 through which to chop. Following the
chopping test, the Master Smith will inspect the edge to determine if there is any noticeable
damage to the blade. Any nicks, chips, flat spots, rolled edges, or other deformations of the
blade, including bending, will result in failure of the test.

3. SHAVING HAIR: THE PURPOSE OF THIS TEST IS TO DEMONSTRATE EDGE RETENTION.
After the Master Smith approves the quality of the edge, the blade will be returned to the
applicant. The applicant must then shave hair from his or her arm, using the section of the
blade that was most frequently used in the cutting and chopping portions of the test.
Enough hair must be shaved to demonstrate that the edge remains keen and shaving sharp.

4. BENDING: THE PURPOSE OF THIS TEST IS TO SHOW THAT THE APPLICANT IS ABLE TO HEAT
TREAT A KNIFE WITH A SOFT BACK AND A HARD EDGE.
The bending of the blade is the final test. Safety gear should be worn. The edge and point
will be dulled prior to bending. The Master Smith will mark a line across the width of the blade
approximately three (3) inches from the tip of the blade. The blade will then be inserted into
a vise, tip first, such that the blade is placed into the vise up to the mark on the blade. If the
vise jaws are very rough, smooth metal or hardwood inserts may be placed on each side of
the clamped portion of the blade to protect it when bending the test knife. The blade shall
be bent by force applied to the handle. A leverage device, such as a pipe may be used as
long as it does not pose a safety risk. The use of such a device is at the sole risk of the
applicant and at the discretion of the supervising Master Smith. The applicant will then bend
the blade ninety (90) degrees.
The supervising Master Smith will signal the applicant when the ninety (90) degree angle has
been reached. Failure on the part of the applicant to stop his bend immediately when
signaled to do so by the Master Smith administering the test exposes the tester to risk of test
failure, as any blade damage occurring during a continued bend after that point will
disqualify the blade. The blade is allowed to crack at the edge on bending but not beyond
approximately one third (1/3rd) the width of the blade, leaving two thirds (2/3rds) of the blade
intact. However, if any part of the blade chips or any part of the blade or tang breaks off,
the applicant fails. The Master Smith shall determine if the extent or location of the fracture
line is acceptable. The decision of the Master Smith is final.
 
Ok, I'll stir this pot a little more...
I am EXTREMELY picky about performance for both the knives I use, and the knives I sell. By "performance" I think we all can agree that what is being referred to in this thread is the edge holding ability and the chopping, or impact toughness of a particular blade. As a maker of both PW, and Monolithic carbon steel blades, I can say with confidence that when properly made, there is zero performance disadvantage in Damascus blades. I personally carry both. Daily.
Now for the stirring... Can we not agree that an objects ability to attract is also an aspect of performance? Certainly a fishing lure that is more attractive to fish is thought to perform better than one that does not. I believe that the attractiveness of Damascus can cause it to "perform" better socially. It seems to sell for a higher price than mono steel knives, therefore it would seem to "perform" more successfully in the market as well.
And back to my first post, it is easier to maintain its attractive looks in field conditions, therefore it could be said that it asthetically out-performs mono steel.
Just food for thought.
Adam.
 
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