What makes a Damascus desirable?

[peterinct]

^^^ GOOD post Adam! You suceeded in stirring my thought process, as "performance" to me conjurs thoughts of cutting capability. From a knifemakers perspective, "performance" could be thought of as in selling performance. Good point.

That being said, on pg. 80 of April 2013 Blade magazine is a cutting test performed by Joe Szilaski using a knife made from 1084. He made 2,700 push cuts in 3/8" manilla rope, followed by 1,400 push cuts through 3/8" sisal rope.

It would be interesting to see that type of cutting done with damascus steel.

Peter

 

[RogerP]

I am EXTREMELY picky about performance for both the knives I use, and the knives I sell. By "performance" I think we all can agree that what is being referred to in this thread is the edge holding ability and the chopping, or impact toughness of a particular blade. As a maker of both PW, and Monolithic carbon steel blades, I can say with confidence that when properly made, there is zero performance disadvantage in Damascus blades. I personally carry both. Daily.

THANK you Adam. And I agree with you on the aesthetic 'performance' aspect as well.

 

[2knife]

Ok, I'll stir this pot a little more...
Can we not agree that an objects ability to attract is also an aspect of performance? Certainly a fishing lure that is more attractive to fish is thought to perform better than one that does not. I believe that the attractiveness of Damascus can cause it to "perform" better socially. It seems to sell for a higher price than mono steel knives, therefore it would seem to "perform" more successfully in the market as well.
Adam.

I think i have heard this arguement before. It goes like this, "Yes, i enjoy using my knives, by looking at them."
Now we are saying performance is "performing" socially, or in the marketplace. .. We are twisting the meaning, just enough to have a variance of truth. This is sort of like making damascus. You take two things, unrelated and mash them - in a way- into one. Or close enough. Ha!

 

[Patrice Lemée]

I always looked at Damascus or san mai or even hamons for what they bring visually to a knife, never performance. I know there all have their separate properties, reasons for being, etc but when I see a beautiful Damascus or wispy hamon my first thought has never been: "Wow, what a cutter that must be". Hence my question about the visual side of this. Am I part of the minority on this? Or maybe alone

 

[2knife]

My thoughts are that people like seeing some form of complexity. And that justifies the making and marketing of damascus.
There are a lot of variations and artistic renderings to it. Variety is the spice of life. Knives without art might be boring to those of us who are more visually motivated.
David

 

[RogerP]

I always looked at Damascus or san mai or even hamons for what they bring visually to a knife, never performance. I know there all have their separate properties, reasons for being, etc but when I see a beautiful Damascus or wispy hamon my first thought has never been: "Wow, what a cutter that must be". Hence my question about the visual side of this. Am I part of the minority on this? Or maybe alone

I don't think you're alone Patrice - certainly the primary appeal among many collectors of such knives are the dual elements of a) the visual appeal of a striking damascus pattern or smoky hamon AND b) the skill of the maker that these features represent.

The performance issue is more commonly engaged not in perception that these elements enhance functional performance, but in the generally ill-conceived notion that, in basic terms, resolves into the sentiment that pretty knives won't cut. This is a sentiment that has emerged countless times on countless contexts over the years on the forums - often from the same sources. And it is just as often transparently self-serving.

The knives in my collection run from the most basic to the most elaborate of fixed blades. But they are all knives all the makers understand that their creations need to be capable of performing as knives, whether they will likely be put to the test or not. I rely upon the makers from whom I purchase knives to get all the performance aspects right - whether the knife is a simple belt-finished cabon utility or a fancy gold-engraved ivory-handled damascus bowie. Adam expressed that sentiment well.

 

[Kevin Jones]

My thoughts are that people like seeing some form of complexity. And that justifies the making and marketing of damascus.
There are a lot of variations and artistic renderings to it. Variety is the spice of life. Knives without art might be boring to those of us who are more visually motivated.
David

It's ironic that the original pattern welded steels, of MANY years ago, were created as a result of the search for higher performance blade steels, the resulting beautiful patterns were a by-product of the process.

 

[ScottRoush]

I think this is why.

 

[Patrice Lemée]

Yes David, I am interested by the performance aspect but definitely visually motivated.

Roger, I understand and fully agree that it has to have cutting ability that makes a knife a knife. But how much cutting performance are you looking for? Sorry I have a hard time putting what I mean into words, English words anyway. I mean I can make a knife that will be a decent cutter but is that enough for a knife that an art knife, a knife that has little or no chance of being used. Or do you want something that somebody with a "Kevin Cashen" level of metallurgical knowledge could do? I mean like cut rocks and still shave leg hairs of a fly?

 

[Patrice Lemée]

I think this is why.

"Wow, what a cutter that must be".

 

[RogerP]

Yes David, I am interested by the performance aspect but definitely visually motivated.

Roger, I understand and fully agree that it has to have cutting ability that makes a knife a knife. But how much cutting performance are you looking for? Sorry I have a hard time putting what I mean into words, English words anyway. I mean I can make a knife that will be a decent cutter but is that enough for a knife that an art knife, a knife that has little or no chance of being used. Or do you want something that somebody with a "Kevin Cashen" level of metallurgical knowledge could do? I mean like cut rocks and still shave leg hairs of a fly?

No apologies needed Patrice - if only my French were half as good as your English.

Maybe I could put it this way - the fact that a knife will not likely be used should have NO impact on the maker's approach to those factors which impact performance.

Or maybe another way - I feel a maker should make the best performing blade that he can, regardless of materials chosen or the likelihood that the customer will actually use it.

This is a subject that came up during the presentation Peter and I gave a Ashokan last fall. Some inquired as to whether it was acceptable on a high end knife to not sharpen the blade, or to put a "collector's edge" on it - which I gather is something one step advanced from a butter knife.

I would never accept such a blade. This isn't an issue with any makers I routinely work with, but whenever I am working with a new maker for the first time, it's a point I stress: put an edge on the knife that I could stake my life on if I had to.

This David Wesner camp knife will likely never chop wood. But I know with certainty that it can. It has a scary-sharp edge. And the maker has tested its cutting ability extensively before final finishing. He even sent me a video of some of the tests. He completely "gets it".

PS - I should add that the maker asking the question at Ashokan was not for a moment suggesting that an unsharpened blade was appropriate - indeed, his view was quite strongly the opposite.

Here is the post that David made in his WIP thread addressing the performance testing:

Yesterday I spent a lot of up close and personal time, using this Bad Boy !!

And that's what it is ...... this thing is a chopping monster !

I tried taking some still pictures to document the chopping but that just didn't cut it ....... pun intended

I've wanted to use YouTube in some of my posts for a long time now and this seemed like the perfect time to give it a go and learn something new.

I mentioned to Roger how bizarre making video of myself seemed, so bear with me here guys

There is definitely a learning curve to this one.

The best description I've come up with in regards to how it felt talking to nothing but the camera is, I felt like a real NINNY


Just for reference sake, the first thing I chopped (before I started the camera) was a regular pine 2x4.
I have to admit, I started out rather gingerly. As the chopping progressed and I became more confident in the design, I started really whaling on it.

The next thing I chopped was a simple 5' L. x 1/2" diameter bamboo garden stake. If you haven't ever cut bamboo, just for the record, even the small stakes are tough stuff.
I just started lopping pieces off. As you'll see, the knife was sinking so deep into the maple stump I used as backing it was at times, getting stuck

The last thing I chopped in the video was an old seasoned hophornbeam pole I had cut years before for holding up snowfence.
Now that is tough stuff !! Folks around here, and other places too for that matter, mistakenly call hophornbeam ....... "ironwood".
It is not true ironwood as in Arizona Desert Ironwood but it is nearly as tough.
This knife went through it like it was the pine 2x4

After everything I did with the knife yesterday all I can say is, "this design works like a champ". I couldn't possibly be happier with how it's turned out so far !
When I tighten the finial nut it comes together like a single, solid piece.
Sorry to toot my own horn here, but I'm excited as heck about this one

I nailed the blade heat treat too :thumbup:

The edge held up perfectly to everything it encountered.

Can you guys tell that I'm delaying posting my YouTube debut

Well......... here it is. Set your coffee cups down so you don't spill it all over your keyboard when laughing


[video=youtube_share;G-z4K_gxIdo]http://youtu.be/G-z4K_gxIdo[/video]

 

[Patrice Lemée]

Thanks Roger for the explanation and the info on David's testing of this bad boy. I fully agree that in a perfect world I would have time to work on all aspects of knifemaking equally but reality is that I have to choose what skills I prioritize. If I dedicated to performance the amount of time I would need to attain such a level as David's for example, well let's just say I would have just about enough time left to learn how to use the shopvac. So I was trying to see with what level of performance I can get away with until I DO have more shop time. But your explanation makes it quite clear that any compromise I will make on this will not be well received.

To complicate things further, I imagine that certain types of knives need a specific set of tests. It's not like you are going to chop through 2X4s with a slim Persian dagger for example. But then how do you test such a knife?
Maybe I could restrain myself to making the types of knives that see less extreme working conditions?
Sorry, I am rambling.

Thanks again for your help.

 

[RogerP]

Hi Patrice,

If you thought I was suggesting that any knife you make should perform to some specific objective standard, let me clarify: just make it perform as best you are able. Don't take the approach that just because the knife is embellished or uses expensive material, that it need not be capable of performing just as well as any knife you make.

Valid question on how best to test a variety of different blades - probably the makers' subforum would have more information for you there.

Anyway, I do apologize for taking this thread away from the visual / aesthetic emphasis you had intended. But I think we can all agree that the prevalence of damascus blades alone suggests that a great many buyers like the look.

 

[canineforge]

Hi Patrice,

If you thought I was suggesting that any knife you make should perform to some specific objective standard, let me clarify: just make it perform as best you are able. Don't take the approach that just because the knife is embellished or uses expensive material, that it need not be capable of performing just as well as any knife you make.

Valid question on how best to test a variety of different blades - probably the makers' subforum would have more information for you there.

Anyway, I do apologize for taking this thread away from the visual / aesthetic emphasis you had intended. But I think we can all agree that the prevalence of damascus blades alone suggests that a great many buyers like the look.

"...the fact that a knife will not likely be used should have NO impact on the maker's approach to those factors which impact performance."

Roger, Patrice seems to be emphasizing visual aspects, but he ask in his topic 'why damascus is desirable'. Performance has to be included. All of your points have been well taken, especially the performance parts, IMO. The statement above stands out to me. Every knife I purchase, and I don't collect highly embellished pieces, I want it to be sharp like a knife is intended to be, and perform efficently if so desired. Of course, the majority of mine do not end up cutting butter or logs, but the ones I choose to use I want to know the maker understands and has the knowledge of his final heat-treated steel product, be it damascus or not. I have only been into customs 7 or 8 years now, and it took me awhile to warm up to damascus, having carried production knives for decades. I purchased a used Ken Steigerwalt ivory/damascus lockback from a purveyor early on to see what it was like to carry and use a 'fancy' custom pocketknife. I not only found out what a great performer damascus can be (I still rotate this as a user and love it), but I found out my friends who are not familiar to custom knives respond to it more. The ivory and damascus stand out to them, and more questions and interest is exposed, compared to a carbon steel/stainless custom folder. So, the visual aspect is important in other ways than the performance when it comes to promoting custom knives. But, when it comes to paying the price, I want a performer, also.

- Joe

 

[Patrice Lemée]

Joe, it is just that in the course of this thread I clarified my question, asking more about the visual side of Damascus. That's why Roger apologized but of course he doesn't need to. Still all related points and interesting information. I will start a thread in Shoptalk about different testing Roger, good idea.

In conclusion, what I got from all the replies is that there are no set visual parameters of what makes a Damascus more desirable than another. Well made of course but other than it looks like it is simply a matter of personal choice.

Thanks again to everyone for your help.

 

[canineforge]

Joe, it is just that in the course of this thread I clarified my question, asking more about the visual side of Damascus. That's why Roger apologized but of course he doesn't need to. Still all related points and interesting information. I will start a thread in Shoptalk about different testing Roger, good idea.

Patrice, you ask for makers and collectors input. My point being, as a collector, if I buy a 'pretty' knife, I want it sharp and I want it to perform as best as it can within the realm of the materials used. As Tony Bose would say, "That's my story and I'm sticking to it."

I like the discussion your thread has produced and hope it helps in your future as a maker!

- Joe

 

[Patrice Lemée]

Sorry I missed this Joe, I was sure I had responded to all posts on this thread.

I appreciate your input and I agree, all good info that will surely help me. Now if it could only help me not to make stupid mistakes in the shop.

 

[Doug C]

Jeez, I might as well post or I won't get it said..

The reason I have for collecting/using (damascus or mono steel) knives, is the performance increase over production knives.
Hope that wasn't too far off topic, Patrice, and thanks for the thread.
Opened my eyes.

Edit: I certainly appreciate fit and finish !

Doug