What makes a good Survival knife ?

pit man said:
I meant to ask you Fonly, do they make a kydex sheath for that #4 Survival knife you have ? If they did that would be good for your chest rig design !
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No they dont, but Normark makes a beautiful one at a great price :thumbup:
 
"dropped edge cut-out flaw" :confused: ???

I'm sorry but I disagree entirely - this is simply a non-issue. "Snagging" is simply not an issue for any reasonable use of a knife even in the wildest survival scenario...
 
I mean, I've seen what some have done to the Sog hunter revolver, thats why I bought it, I carry that one a fair amount, and its an awsome knife, I'd take that over a 8" blade any day, I dont need to chop, it has a saw :D
 
magneto said:
Hey Allan, would you by any chance have a pic of a re-ground knife?
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I dont know of any "Before/After" set of photos.

But I think I can find some shots where you can see what I mean:

Here are some photos of the same basic designed knife.
Now in the first photo notice that along the lower cutting edge, just before the handle guard, how the cutting edge stops?
Thats where the knife maker made what i think is a flaw to his design.
http://www.knifeoutlet.com/shop/10Expand.asp?ProductCode=DAKW3
Do you see how if you tried to do what they call a "push-cut" that the material you are cutting would slide nice all the way up the blade until it got to the guard area, where it would pop up into the part in front of the the guard where the maker grinded away the edge?
Thats where it will always snag.
Every time you try to make a good long cut and use the full length of the blade, it will get to that point and snag.

Now lets look at a far better design on the same type of knife

http://www.knifeoutlet.com/shop/10Expand.asp?ProductCode=AK10
Here we dont see that little missing section along the lower cutting edge just in front of the guard.
notice how the cutting edge flows right up to the guard?
This means that you can really cut stuff all the way up the length of the blade.'
You dont have to stop the cut early.

so magneto, what I would do to that first knife would be to take it over to my grinder and grind the cutting edge so that it flows up to match the other part just in front of the guard.

You would need to re-grind a lot of steel, but in the end you would have a blade that looks just like the knife in the 2nd photo. I would take off about a 1/4 inch of steel running the whole length of the cutting edge.

Now go back and look at the two knives in the photos.
they are almost the same knife, except the top knife has that darn "dropped edge" that will always be snagging stuff.
get rid of the dropped edge and you got the same knife.
any questions?
 
akennedy73 said:
"Snagging" is simply not an issue for any reasonable use of a knife even in the wildest survival scenario...
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Im saying that not only has the "dropped edge" no reason to be on a survival knife, I also saying that it's a flaw on most knives made today!

The cut-out makes it always going to snag.
If you try to make a cut using the full length of the blade, it will snag 100% of the time.
The flaw is that sure to cause trouble that the owner of the knife will start to actually change the way he would like to cut something, to keep the cut-out clear of the material.

This means that no matter the fact that you own a blade with a 4 or 5 or 6 inch sharpened edge, you really only dare use the first few little inches.

Well I happen to think that if I paied for a 6 inch knife blade, then I should be able to use the full length of the blade hard without it snagging all the time!

A simple design change, and getting rid of the dropped edge, will allow you to use the full length of the knife thats sharpened.
You can start a cut at the tip of the knife, work the material all the way to the guard, where it will come to a stop, and then start a "pull-cut" with no need to reposition.
You can use every part of the knife edge to cut with.

Thats the way a knife should work by the way.
 
Allan, you seem to know a lot, out of curiosity what do you carry for your Survival Knife?
 
barny said:
Allan, you seem to know a lot, out of curiosity what do you carry for your Survival Knife?
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I dont call it a survival knife.
But the only knives I carry are my own designs. Forged from a ball bearing - http://youtube.com/watch?v=TzJ-91nUhPA

I dont do a "full tang" knife yet because I have not learned how to place the handle slabs on without them slipping while they glue up.
The people that are looking for hand-made knives that I know, are looking for a Hunter/user design,,,and I also like that design for my work.
Something with a real big guard to protect the fingers in the dark.

If I were to make my own Survival knife, then I would copy the design of the ka-bar posted on this topic by pit man.
I would do the handle a bit different, and have a different butt end on the knife for better hammering.
I also would shape the blade without the dropped edge, (but we already know that)
It would have handle slabs made of canvas micarta that are only bolted into position so they can be taken off if needed.

I have seen some survival knives with a strap hole on the other end of the handle near the thumb rather than at the butt end, and thats where I might like a strap hole to be on my design too.
 
Allan Molstad said:
The cut-out makes it always going to snag.
If you try to make a cut using the full length of the blade, it will snag 100% of the time.
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What are you cutting that makes use of the full length of the blade? Are you dressing out large whales and dealing with several feet of blubber that you must slice through?

I'm sorry but I've field dressed plenty of deer - and I've yet to "snag" my blade. In fact, except for splitting the pelvis, any good quality blade at least two inches in length is sufficient to dress out large game.

And please don't suggest I should be concerned with stabbing wild game with my knife - that's what a wooden spear hardened over the fire is for.
 
A good survival knife needs to be of a design that will allow the user the chance to turn it into a spear point in the stabbing of many types of wild game.

If you look at the many knives that Im talking about that have the dropped edge design, then you should be able to see that there is a real built-in design flaw to it as well.

The dropped edge will snag 100% of the time if given the chance.
The only way around this flaw is to not allow the dropped edge to be close to the things you are cutting.

And that means you dont get to make full-length cuts.

Well, Im the type of guy who thinks that if I own a knife with a 6 inch blade, that I better be able to use the whole darn thing!
I paied for the whole edge anyway, I want to have the chance to use it!

It's a simple design change to make on a knife.
You just allow the cutting edge to flow right into the flat ricaso area....thats it.http://www.coldsteel.com/60ss.html

This small change to a knife edge will get rid of the never ending frustration of snagging/reposition/snag again/reposition again, etc,etc,
 
akennedy73 said:
- and I've yet to "snag" my blade. .
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As I posted before,
You are a human, and we humans are the "top dogs' in this world because of our hands and minds and our ability to "make it work"

human hands learn to make do with what they have on hand at the time.
The human mind is able to answer questions about how to take (X)tool and use it to do (Y) job?
So for some of us who work with knives all the time and really know our stuff, I bet I could hand us a little sharpen rock and still see us learn that: "It works fine!"

But this is all becides the point.
A knife maker has to be able to look at a design and see whats good and whats bad?
And not just whats 'easy"?

The dropped edge is seen on so many knives because it makes things 'easy" for the knifemaker.
The dropped edge allows the maker to sharpen all the way to the end with his sanding belts. (Thats why it's there by the way guys)

However for the guy who tries to use a knife with this design, the dropped edge is a flaw,,,,a very real flaw, thats un-needed (there is no real reason for it to be on a field knife ) and un-wanted.
 
The dropped edge and snagging are non-issues being argued to make very good knives seem inadequate and poorly designed. I understand snagging, but have never seen a knife snag as has been discussed at length in this thread.

A survival knife does not need to be designed to function as a spearhead. As mentioned a spear for stabbing can be made using the sharpened and fire hardened wooden shaft as the spear tip. Putting your only knife out there at the tip where it can be damaged or lost is poor headwork. Use the knife and your fire to make more spears if you're so inclined. Traps and a club may work better.

It has been argued that a folder cannot be a survival knife because it cannot be batoned? Is the ability to be batoned the capability defining a survival knife? Are there maybe other ways to get firewood?

The perfect survival knife needs to be all things to all people and simply doesn't exist. The one attribute a survival knife needs is to be on you when you least expect to need it. How many carry their big knife when they go for a short non-wilderness hike? How many carry their survival knife to the office? I'll raise my hand to the last question. There's no doubt that having a large wilderness blade such as a Final Judgment (oops, there's that dropped edge again ;) ) would be an advantage in any wilderness survival situation, but the times I've gone out with that knife are the times I'm most prepared and have the most gear -- it's called camping.

More likely I'll have its smaller brother the Peace Maker when I'm out for a short walk and at all other times I'll have that folder that was already clipped to my trou when I dressed.
 
Like I said, when im not in the woods by me slef, or camping ill have a folder, no doubt.

This thing with the dropped edge, is, and im sorry to say this, is ludicris, it makes no sense to me, and has never happend during any of my endevours.

If you base a purchase of a knife on this fact, you going to be leaving out some nice knives.
 
So, just to recap those who dont want to read, From Allens descripton. the following knives have desgin flaws, and AREN'T survival knives, nor should they be classed as them.

ranger%20rd9%20full%20flat.jpg


All of these
c13_discontinued.jpg


Ferhman
vo1323.jpg


SRKW
swamp_rat.jpg


Allan, I cant get this through my head, if you dont buy knives because of this Dropped edge, your missing out my friend.
 
Yes, I do believe that the reason for the dropped edge appearing on so many modern knives is because it makes life more easy for the knife maker.

As far as I know, thats the ONLY REASON for them being on your knives!...

Im a little knife maker myself, and so I undestand why a maker wants to slip this design flaw into a knife.
It does allow us makers to use a beltgrinder and sharpen with the belts all the way to the very end.

But at the same time, I also use a knife every day at my jobsite, and I know for a fact that there is no known reason why anyone would seek out a field knife with a dropped edge.

I believe that we all get stuck using a dropped edge knives because thats about all there is out there to pick from.

After a while we learn of this huge limitation the design has, and we also learn to work around it.
We learn to not make nice big cuts with the blade, we learn to cut-reposition-cut-reposition .
After a while we dont notice what we are doing, or how our cutting has changed and fallen from the ideal.

But all that is becides the issue.
I believe that if there is no known reason why a person would want a dropped edge knife to use, then why put up with it?
If we paied for a 6 inch knife, then we should be able to use all 6 inches of cutting area without any problems....without any need to watchout for a built-in snag to trap our blade.

So Im not attempting to make your many dropped-edge blades "look" flawed..
Im just showing the cold, hard, fact that they "are" flawed...
 
Fonly said:
So, just to recap those who dont want to read, From Allens descripton. the following knives have desgin flaws, and AREN'T survival knives, nor should they be classed as them.

[Allan, I cant get this through my head, if you dont buy knives because of this Dropped edge, your missing out my friend.
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Im only missing out on the never ending snagging...LOL
The fine knives you show in the photos may be good survival knives..

But they also have a design flaw.
notice the finger cut-out in some of them?
The maker designed this finger cut-out in front of the handle because at the time he might have felt it would help the user to choke-up on the blade for more control.

But thats wrong.
The truth is that due to this finger cut-out the cutting will need to change because if you allow the material to slide up the blade to reach the cut-out it will snag.

After a few such snaggings, the user will learn to stop each cutting stroke a bit early so as to keep things from getting close to the snagging cut-out.

This means that most of the real cutting is pushed closer to the tip and away from the hand.
And thats why the finger cut-out that was designed to help with control, actually harms knife control.

Now a far better design is to flow the cutting edge into a flat ricaso area in front of the guard.http://www.coldsteel.com/60ss.html
This would still allow a place to put a finger and choke-up on the blade.
And most importantly, it would not harm the full-length cutting stroke at all...
 
If I may borrow the Fehrman pic posted by Fonly
vo1323.jpg


Geez, that's a nice knife. Mine has the black crinkle coat and for the record, the choil does not snag.

I'm done here. I'm off to not-surviving with my folder and other flawed fixed blades ;)
 
ras said:
vo1323.jpg
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The part of the design that i really like on this blade is the placement of the strap hole near the top end of the handle , and not near the butt end of the knife.

I like it near the top as shown here because it allows for a leather strap to drape down and under the hand. Thus the hand is supported better while doing heavy chopping.
I have always felt that when the leather support strap come up from underneath the palm of the hand that it's near worthless in helping the hand hold onto the blade while chopping.

With this placement in the photo, you can even rest the fingers a little and lighten up how much force you use to grip the handle and the strap's position will hold the hand to the handle automaticaly.
 
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