What makes a good Survival knife ?

[Allan Molstad]

Want to see a YouTube video of a knife thats sold as a survival knife, that snags way too easy?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=fn_F_Xk4bvo
I have never understood this knife design.
The first time I looked at it I felt that "it's going to snag all the time"
And in this video, you see I was right.

It's like the knifemaker took the worst design part of any knife, (The dropped edge cut-out) and made it the biggest deal with this knife.
The knife is only thought of as a survival knife because it was in a movie.
But I cant believe anyone would really try to do plunge cuts with it for real...

 

[nemoaz]

Don't know how my EDC Benchmade folder convinced you to start carrying an 8" TRUE SURVIVAL KNIFE, but I think you missed my point.

I was trying to be sarcastic and add to your point that a good folder can be carried every day. Sarcasm on internet boards often doesn't work for me. I'm obviously just not good at it.

Back to spending most of my time in the field and "not surviving" with my Leatherman, Spyderco folder, and hatchet.

 

[danielp]

With my limited experience, I will never use my knife as spearhead, or as a thrower, especially in survival condition. I might lost my most important tool..

 

[ras]

Cool. Sarcasm is a tough emotion to read on the internet.

 

[GibsonFan]

OK fellas, hold on, this is going to be a bumpy ride...

When I see some 8" knife flapping around on some guys harness or leg, I think wannabe, psycho, or clown. Many other professionals feel the same way.

When I see that, I just think he needs a better sheath "Professionals"... well, if you're talking about professional soldiers, their needs for a knife are much different than mine. I very seldom find myself in a sentry-removal or hand-to-hand combat situation, nor do I often need to pry open a crate or something with my knife; however I often find myself chopping/splitting/batonning wood (YES, I know, I could also do that with a hatchet or a chainsaw, please let's not start that argument again.) I think a war-fighter is the one person who might actually be best-served by a mid-length, very stout, not-all-that-sharp knife.

I understand your comments about psychos and clowns. It's certainly true that large knives have a bad reputation because of jackasses who bought a big, cheap knife and thought it would make them "kewl". I humbly submit that I'm not one of those people.

I remember an old team daddy grabbing one of the commo guys "Rambo" special and bashing it on the tree. The hollow handle split from the blade. Team Daddy just smiled and told him to carry something useful next time.

Please don't compare a cheapo Rambo-wannabe knife to a well-thought-out survival knife. We all should know the difference by now.

I'm planning on looking at these knives around July of this year.
Anyone have comments or suggestions on my picks or the evaluation plan?
http://www.imagometrics.com/GoBags/Knives.htm

Knives with blade lengths between 5" and 7" are among the most uncomfortable, non-handy, and overall poorly-performing tools I've ever come across. Too long to be really handy, and too short for any power/tip-speed in self-defense or woodcraft. Compromise is NOT ALWAYS a good thing. I'm one of those two-knife guys, one large and one small. Just my opinion, YMMV, etc etc.

An urban survival blade is really mostly a sharpened prybar- an outdoors survival blade is not mostly a sharpened prybar.
So it's the one or two blades that can accomplish the most, while being the smallest and lightest.
As always, we have to ask- surviving what ?

Excellent points! I feel a camper/woodsman needs a different knife than a soldier, and I also agree that in a "civilized" (urban) environment I would tend more towards "sharpened prybar"; I already EDC a multi-tool for various reasons, but if I thought the defecation was about to hit the oscillation, I would also carry a large, stout fixed-blade. City survival/scrounging is one time I would choose a USAF pilot's knife (lousy cutter/slicer, very strong basher/pryer) over a thinner, sharper grind. Be prepared to see the thin tip of the USAF knife go bye-bye, though. That knife should have a drop-point instead of a bowie-style swedge.

In the boonies, I am more willing than most to carry the weight of a large (8"+) blade; I consider a knife to be bedrock essential gear, and I will sacrifice other items before I leave behind my big bowie, if weight is an issue. I'd rather be naked with a BK-9 or Trailmaster than fully equipped with no knife. (OK, that's a bit of an exaggeration).

Actually, I'm not laughing, although most of your comments in this thread are laughable. I've never heard this snagging angle before though, +1 on originality.

I don't think Alan's "snagging" concerns are laughable at all, especially for a small knife. I hadn't thought of his point of view before either; although I don't feel as strongly about it as he does, I believe his concept is valid. I don't think it's much of an issue with a 8"+ knife, (I don't expect that to be a delicate slicer, or a spear), but with a <5" blade I agree, there's not much point to the dropped edge, choil, whatever you want to call it. In fact, I don't think a long ricasso of any type is real useful for a small knife, and thanks to this thread, I am seriously reconsidering their practical value in any instance. (a ricasso does make a nice place for a maker to put his stamp, of course ) After much reflection I've realized that one of the reasons I like my Master Hunter http://www.bladematrix.tv/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=27649
so much, is that nearly every inch of the blade is razor sharp, no "wasted" steel. I like the small round notch near the plunge-grind, because I have a fondness for scraping sparks off a ferro-rod and because it looks nice. But I could live without that, too.

Want to see a YouTube video of a knife thats sold as a survival knife, that snags way too easy?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=fn_F_Xk4bvo
I have never understood this knife design...

Agreed. That's an extreme example of the snagging you're talking about, and frankly that WSK is right up there with the ugliest, least useful, and most ridiculous examples of marketing bullsh!t I've ever seen in a knife. I would much rather carry any Mora-style knife, than that monstrosity of misguided "design". It's a little of everything, but not enough of anything. IIRC Mr. Tom Brown designed it, and while I don't question his skill and knowledge of outdoor survival, I seriously question the usefullness of that knife.

One of the things in the back of a knife maker's mind when he makes a survival knife is not that the knife can do everything as well or better that any other knife.

I disagree completely. What is in their mind is "What will sell?"QUOTE]

Depends on who you're talking about. Please don't lump the guy from the Home Shopping Network in with the men who put their blood, sweat and tears into designing and making top-quality knives. I believe the WSK as shown above is a perfect example of "what will sell"... although I generally dislike mid-length blades, a standard $40 Ka-Bar fits the necessary compromises much better.

my god, I cant believe there's 6 pages of this crap

You should see my email inbox

If all you have on your person is a Folder, then of course you would have to make the best of a bad job; but if you know you are going off the beaten path, then a stout fixed blade of at least 4"+ is what you should be taking, with maybe a SAK or multi-tool as a back-up !!!

*DING DING DING*, we have a winner!!! I EDC a <3" folder (I rotate a couple different ones) and a Leatherman Blast (I picked that model mostly because it has a good saw and file in it, along with the pliers and drivers... the knife blade in it isn't too bad, but the handles are uncomfortable to use that way... ). If I think there's any chance of being out in the boonies or in an urban freakout, I add a 4" or so fixed-blade AND a 9"+ fixed blade or heavy tomahawk. "a survival knife is the knife you have on you" is an intellectual cop-out and a non-argument, in my opinion. Lazy man's way of not making hard choices. I dress differently for dining out than I do for work in the factory, y'know?

Whoever was asking what a fixed blade can do that a folder can't,check out this post ...
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=467170
If a 0.25" fixed blade can break when subjected to a little real-life abuse what chance does a folder have!

That CS broke because of the square shoulders where the blade becomes the tang. That is a SERIOUS design flaw in a narrow-tang knife; a cheapskate manufacturing shortcut. Radiusing out stress-risers like that requires time and skill that most commercial manu's just don't want to invest. My CS TrailMaster has the same horrible shoulders, first thing I did to it was cut off the gawd-awful-ugly rubber handle and file those shoulders to a smooth radius. It's a shame really, that so many good knives have this fatal flaw.

 

[Allan Molstad]

That CS broke because of the square shoulders where the blade becomes the tang. .

Is it really that square?
When I look at the one close-up photo, it seems as if there has been an attempt by the maker to round the corner with a round file.

I have seen other blades that have a nice clean square shoulders and they are very easy to spot.
I dont know for sure here in this case, but when I look at the photo I just dont think I can place all the blame onto too sharp of tang corner.

And, the more I think about it, the more I come back to the idea that had the Heat-Treatment been of a type where the tang was left dead soft, then this knife would not have snapped as it did.

It just seems that if you make any type of steel real-real hard, and then stick it in such a vice or tree stump, and then hit the handle with a hammer, it's going to likely snap in two.

 

[Allan Molstad]

I agree, there's not much point to the dropped edge, choil, whatever you want to call it. .

Because I am pointing out a flaw thats found in almost every knife, many guys will defend their own blades and tell me that they, "Have never had a snagging problem."
Well I think thats great, good for them to learn to work around the choil cut-out....

But why is the choil on their knife in the first place?

What reason is there for it?
What reason would a guy want it on every knife he owns no matter what size knife?

CONCIDER:
The tip has a reason from being on your knife.
The handle has a reason from being on your knife
The guard has a reason for being on your knife
The choil?

When I started out making my first knives, a well known bladesmith gave me some advice about knife design.
He said that everything on my blades should have a reason for being there.
He told me to look at each part of a knife design and ask myself, "Whats that for?"..."What is the reason for it?"
The idea he was teaching me was that unless something had a good reason for the future owner to want it on his knife, the maker should get rid of it.

Why would a user want a choil?

 

[GibsonFan]

Is it really that square?...
I dont know for sure here in this case, but when I look at the photo I just dont think I can place all the blame onto too sharp of tang corner.
And, the more I think about it, the more I come back to the idea that had the Heat-Treatment been of a type where the tang was left dead soft, then this knife would not have snapped as it did.

Yes, I believe the shoulders are too square. I've been advised that a 1/8" radius is enough, but I prefer to err on the side of caution, and use a 1/4" radius. This makes fitting the guard a real b!tch, but it helps me sleep at night.

However, you are VERY right to point out HT as a contributing factor. It has been proven many times that the tang ( and spine, if the blade is long) of a knife should be tempered back much softer than the edge, if not dead soft. On my Trailmaster, a new Simonds file slides right off the edge, but digs right into the tang. I believe this is a good sign of proper HT.

I think it's also true that a soft rubber handle offers ZERO strength to the design, whereas micarta or good wood might have helped. Not a substitute for good temper, though. The more I learn about steel, the more I think that MANY steels are good, if they're treated accordingly for their intended use. I have a low-grade 420 stainless United Cutlery bowie that I've beaten very hard and it has not chipped or broken, for instance.

 

[Allan Molstad]

GF,,,what would a correct shoulder look like in your view?

Is there a website or some type of photo to look at?

A while ago this same topic came up, and the suggestion was that it was always best to use a round file at the corner.
And when I look at the above photo, it looks rounded to me, like the maker tried to round off the corner...

It's clearly not a real sharp corner, so that must mean there was an attempt here to do the right thing.

I dont know about you but I have little round files used for chainsaw sharpening
and I have big 1/2 round files
and then I have flat files
But thats about it...
So I have always used a little round file to get rid of the strress riser chance at the tang/blade corner....

What else do guys do there becides round the corners?

 

[GibsonFan]

The only thing I have done so far is use a 1/4" round file on the shoulders. Like you said, a chainsaw-sharpening file. (keeping the "flats" as square as possible for fit, of course.)

I'm afraid I have no scientific proof that this helps.... but I've seen lots of pics of broken knives with little or no radius in the shoulder, and no pics of wider-radiused tangs that snapped. It makes sense in my brain.

After looking at those pics some more, I think you're right that HT had more to do with the failure than anything else. But I still think a wider radius CAN'T hurt.

I've never shattered a knife, but I've seen many broken machine parts and tools, both cast and drop-forged, and they ALWAYS broke where there's a sharp corner, not where the curve is smooth. That's enough for me to think it's an important factor. Then again, I've seen bearing races with radiused edges, snap like a twig under pressure... I think that's either cheap steel or poor HT. At work we once went through a period where we were blowing up "bargain" bearings at an alarming and costly rate... when we broke them all and got more name-brand (FAG and Timken) bearings (exact same dimensions, including edge radius), the problem disappeared. The only time I've seen a FAG bearing race snap, was under extreme duress... operator error, not the bearing's fault.

It's also enough to make me think long and hard about any kind of sawteeth on a large blade.... if the spine is hard like the edge, with all those grooves in it, how can it withstand hard shock? I think a shallow rasp-style like on the USAF knife is OK, but the big deep teeth on most "survival" knives, nevermind how badly they actually saw, look like a *snap* waiting to happen.

Either way, it seems to me that differential temper (hard edge, softer spine and tang) on any largish knife will help a lot. I'm neither a physicist nor a bladesmith, but it makes sense to me.

 

[kgd]

....
I think they are all wrong.....That means that the owner will also learn to be carefull and to always stop a push-cut before it reaches the choil.

I understand where you are getting at, but I also stick to my point that caution and controlled actions are first and foremost in a survival situation. If you read the U.S. military handbook on survival, one of the golden rules is to think before you act and get your bearings. I think this also extends to the use of a knife. It should be controlled so that a stabbing motion or a slashing motion is thought out in terms of where the knife will move and end up through the entire delivery. Otherwise you are likely to become off balanced or damage the blade during the contact - this would be worse then the threat of snagging.

 

[Allan Molstad]

KGD...
yes, the flaw of the dropped edge design will make the user need to be carefull not to try to cut things with the back 1/3 of the knife blade.

Thats what we all learn to do.
We all learn that about the last 1/3 to 1/4 of the blade just in front of the handle is getting a bit too close to the area where it will snag.
So we dont let the stuff we are cutting get that far.
This means that we are not paying attention to other things but rather we are spinning our wheels dealing with a built-in design flaw that is completely needless.

I know some people will say that dealing with the snagging problem that comes with the dropped edge knife is not so hard.

But I have yet to see a guy who uses a knife a lot tell me why the choil should appear on every knife the way it does?....is there a widely know need for it amoung knife owners?

 

[akennedy73]

This thread has really got me thinking and all of a sudden I've got all these survival scenarios flashing through my brain where the "snagging" effect of my knife's choil is really going to come into play.

Stranded in a field of watermelons, my knife will continually snag on the thick rind of my sole food source. :grumpy:

Fighting high up in the rigging of a pirate ship, I'll find my ability to escape by thrusting my knife into a sail and dropping down to the deck with one long smooth cut is foiled - that damn choil again!

And I can just imagine a wild boar running away with my knife embedded in it - snagged by the choil after I spent hours stalking my prey to get within stabbing distance.


Ok, hope you're a good sport Alan and don't mind me poking a little fun at ya!

If snagging choils bother you as a knife designer, great! I've certainly seen entire lines of knives that have almost cultish followings based on some perceived superiority in design. You should start a no-snag sans-choil line of knives - you'd probably make a bundle. Seriously.

As for me, as much as I love knives, they are relatively simple tools. I'm a user, not a designer. So long as they are sharp and made of quality steel with a good heat treatment, I'm satisfied. The biggest design consideration I might have is how much curvature an edge has for skinning - but I'm not going to complain if I've got to skin a deer with a SAK. Patience and mental focus is a virtue.

More complex tools like cars, firearms, power-tools - yeah, the complexities of design definitely come into play.

 

[allenC]

Wow, that was a lot to read through, and some of it was actually useful information (most of it was not).

Anyway, here's my take on the subject...

What makes a good survival knife?
The obvious answer is "the one you have with you when the survival situation presents itself".
This means a smaller knife: a small fixed-blade (certainly less than 6" in blade length), or a folder, or a multi-tool.
There's a reason that you don't see people lugging around big fixed-blades everyday, everywhere they go....they're heavy, they're bulky, and a person looks crazy or stupid carrying one everywhere they go.


Now, between a small fixed-blade, a folder, and a multi-tool, which one gives the user the most options and the most utility?
The obvious answer is the multi-tool.
There's a much quoted old saying..."if all you have is a hammer, then every problem looks like a nail".
This is the truth!

A multi-tool is the thinking man's survival knife.

A good multi-tool is infinitely more useful for survival than a large fixed-blade (which is more of a "security blanket" than most would admit).
Remember, we are talking about survival, not homesteading and pioneering the frontier.
I've never even heard of a survival situation where a person HAD to chop down a tree or HAD to use his knife as a spear.
I can see the need to baton and split wood (to get to the dry center), but why risk the only blade you have when you can easily carve a splitting wedge out of wood or use a rock as a splitting wedge?
I've seen too many fixed-blades that broke while batoning.
And you cannot predict when it might occur...you could baton twenty logs and your knife hold up just fine...until log number twenty-one...then snap! You're fixed-blade breaks!

 

[Kraz]

I can't believe a guy who claims to be a knife maker doesn't know what the choil is for...perhaps I misunderstand the question.

The primary value of the choil for me is to make sharpening the blade faster by requiring less precision with the sharpening tool. Providing a little extra working space for the sharpening tool in front of the ricasso and guard means the edge of the sandpaper/stone/ceramic rod/steel will stay on the blade edge and not rub the ricasso or guard. You can eliminate the choil but it makes sharpening a slower process that requires more precision to not scrape up the ricasso and/or guard. If you're using a round steel or ceramic you will almost certainly wear the ricasso and/or guard when sharpening that last bit of edge. Should you ever own a nice custom knife you will care about this.

Finger choils are very useful on a larger blade for choking up for close work and whittling, such as fuzz sticks or carefully removing bark. They don't snag when you're whittling, I promise. It's a timesaver that eliminates the need (in many cases) of requiring you to use a small knife and a large knife.

The whole discussion on snagging seems to center around a) using your knife as a spear point which frankly is one of the riskiest things I could ever imagine in a survival situation b) making full use of every last centimeter of blade length which with any knife skill at all is not difficult, even with a choil.

I don't know where you've gotten this statistic that people just use 1/3 to 1/4 of the blade. That's just made up bunk. Show me where you got this data or please stop using it. If that's the way you use your knives, fine. I don't. And in 40 years of using a knife I have never, ever, snagged it on the choil.

Make your knives the way you want. Spare us the rant about features you've never taken the time to learn to use. And please don't use random statistics without presenting the data to back them up. Mall ninja videos of pepsi bottle slaying don't count, ok?

 

[nodh]

If people in areas where the possibility to get lost is high (outside the 50 signs) made it a habit to bring at least a multitool and a box of matches (we are talking awerage joe now) the number of people getting really lost would shrink alot. Even average joe could be able to make a small fire to alert the rescue helo. Even though I have heard that finding kids with FLIR is hard in the summer since stones can be hot, a fire is hotter than a sunny stone.
Its also a security blanket to have a fire going.
If you are getting into the jungle, like those french guys did, a Wave and a firesteel might not be enough, but then again, they carry it in their pockets and would probably not lose it easily. The really fancy superduper extraturbo 500$ survival knife system is in the backpack, which just passed the guy who swam along amazonas
Unfortunately people nowadays see knives as weapons and not tools. Some guy saw my knife collection yesterday and he said "are you looking at weapons?". I collect Fallkniven F1's .
Maybe I should make small movies how to do all those things people think they need a superkillknife to do, but with maybe a WM1 or a Wave.

I guess my survival knife would be a Fallkniven U2 or a LM Fuse, since those are the ones I carry around. If I got to prepare myself it would be a F1 and a saw and some other stuff. It would still be on/in my pants but maybe not something to bring along at the office.

So in even shorter, get the older version Wave, the new one is crap (loose bits and heavier). wear it always, and get a scout model firesteel, cut away the handle, drill a hole trough it (under water) and put it in your keyring. Now you are prepared. Add a whistle while you are at it.

 

[allenC]

For those really need to cut down trees to survive...how about a nice folding saw?
They don't weigh much (less than a fixed-blade of equal size in most cases) but they can clear cut a forest of trees before getting too dull!


Group shot:

Look how tiny the saw on the Blast looks! LOL!

Even the Benchmade 710 looks like a shrimp next to that big Coleman!

 

[crossada]

i've encountered choil hangups on a couple of my small busses recently. for example if i am cutting open a bag or something edge up the material gets wadded in the choil and quits cutting. you have to stop cutting and reset the edge. on my big choppers there is enough edge where this doesn't come into play. i do consider a big choil like on the active duty to be a design flaw so i can see where you are coming from allan

 

[XMP]

Now if CS would make the SRK out of INFI most everyone would be happy

 

[foxyrick]

i've encountered choil hangups on a couple of my small busses recently. for example if i am cutting open a bag or something edge up the material gets wadded in the choil and quits cutting. you have to stop cutting and reset the edge. on my big choppers there is enough edge where this doesn't come into play. i do consider a big choil like on the active duty to be a design flaw so i can see where you are coming from allan

I'm glad you mentioned Busses.

I was thinking about this matter before I saw this thread.

I have three large Busses , all with big choils. I would rather *not* have the choils, I didn't like them from the start. But I like the knives enough to put up with it. Besides, two of them are really choppers anyway and the choil *can* be used for a choked-up grip. The third, which hasn't arrived yet, is about 5" blade. I would much rather it didn't have the choil. There's should be no need for a choked-up grip on this blade, gripping the handle should be close enough; if it had no choil. It's a waste of 3/4" of very good steel.

I really want a smaller blade, 3 to 4 inch. I would like it to be a Busse, but it almost certainly won't be because there is *no* point having a blade that small with a choil. But they all (I think) have one. So, as much as I am a fan of Busses, and I *might* get a small Busse just for the hell of it, it won't be a user. That is a shame.

Funny thing is, I sort of like the choils from a purely aesthetic perspective, but the practical half (the survivalist half?) of me shouts "NO!" on all but the choppers.

Just my thoughts...

Rick.