What Makes a Good, Traditional Barlow?

[cards94]

I, too, have filed the kick: on my sheepfoot Charlow and my Farm and Field bullnose. In both cases, the point of the blade rested just a hair or two above the handle in the closed position. The blade tips would snag on fabric or skin. Never had any serious injury, it just bothered me.

So now the back springs are not perfectly flush. This might be a problem for me if they were for a collection. But I carry them every day and they are users, not specimens in an exhibit. Honestly, I prefer the uneven springs to the points sticking out above the handles.

how does the point rest a little above the handle? did the knives come like that or is it something that developed over time?

 

[paulhilborn]

Jack, that was fantastic!!! I could watch videos like that endlessly :thumbup:

It was 12 minutes and it flew by, I'll revisit this again

Thanks again Jack.

Paul

 

[Jack Black]

You're very welcome Paul, I only found it by chance, glad you enjoyed it

Jack

 

[Dr. Scott]

how does the point rest a little above the handle? did the knives come like that or is it something that developed over time?

These knives came like that. And it was a very small thing. Maybe a half a millimeter on the Charlow and a full millimeter on the F&F bullnose. When I would rub my finger over the end of the handle, the point would catch on my skin and scratch it pretty good. It didn't rest any lower with use, so I just filed the kick a little.

If they were meant as mint examples in a collection, maybe I would have sent them into GEC, but these were EDC users for me. Plus, I kind of enjoyed tinkering with them. They work great as EDCs, but I'm sure that many would be bothered by my now uneven back springs.

 

[cards94]

These knives came like that. And it was a very small thing. Maybe a half a millimeter on the Charlow and a full millimeter on the F&F bullnose. When I would rub my finger over the end of the handle, the point would catch on my skin and scratch it pretty good. It didn't rest any lower with use, so I just filed the kick a little.

If they were meant as mint examples in a collection, maybe I would have sent them into GEC, but these were EDC users for me. Plus, I kind of enjoyed tinkering with them. They work great as EDCs, but I'm sure that many would be bothered by my now uneven back springs.

it boggles the mind that they could send out a knife like that. guess i'm lucky where the point of the blade on mine rests below.

 

[cards94]

quick question to the barlow specialists. does the clip point blade point lay deeper when closed compared to the spearpoint blade point or the sheepfoot point? just to be clear, i'm not talking about the height of the blade near the thumbnail but just the point of the blade.

 

[bonky]

quick question to the barlow specialists. does the clip point blade point lay deeper when closed compared to the spearpoint blade point or the sheepfoot point? just to be clear, i'm not talking about the height of the blade near the thumbnail but just the point of the blade.

I've two each of the Sheepsfoot and Clips, and none of the spears. On the examples I have in hand, the clip point rides higher than the sheepsfoot by a pretty good margin, almost 1/8th an inch, but is still below the top liner of the knife by a comfortable margin.

I'm sure it varies from knife to knife, this is only based upon my limited sample. It will be interesting to hear from others and see if this holds true in general.

 

[cards94]

I've two each of the Sheepsfoot and Clips, and none of the spears. On the examples I have in hand, the clip point rides higher than the sheepsfoot by a pretty good margin, almost 1/8th an inch, but is still below the top liner of the knife by a comfortable margin.

I'm sure it varies from knife to knife, this is only based upon my limited sample. It will be interesting to hear from others and see if this holds true in general.

now that i think about it, the bolster lining or area where the blade rests are all the same, the only difference is the shape of the blade, am i right?
so technically the point of the 3 blades offered by gec in the #15 barlow should rest at the same position when in the closed position. at least that's the way i see it.

 

[cards94]

I've two each of the Sheepsfoot and Clips, and none of the spears. On the examples I have in hand, the clip point rides higher than the sheepsfoot by a pretty good margin, almost 1/8th an inch, but is still below the top liner of the knife by a comfortable margin.

I'm sure it varies from knife to knife, this is only based upon my limited sample. It will be interesting to hear from others and see if this holds true in general.

just to be clear, i'm talking about the #15 gec barlow.

 

[bonky]

now that i think about it, the bolster lining or area where the blade rests are all the same, the only difference is the shape of the blade, am i right?
so technically the point of the 3 blades offered by gec in the #15 barlow should rest at the same position when in the closed position. at least that's the way i see it.

Yes, I think the blade profile definitely is a factor here, since the sheepsfoot has no belly to the blade, and the point is in line with the cutting edge, unlike the clip and spear blades. However, even taking blade profile into account, the blade itself seemed to ride slightly deeper in the scales overall on the sheepsfoot pattern vs the clip.

Again, though, this is just my observations comparing two of each blade profile of the #15 Barlow pattern. It's a pretty small sample, so it would be interesting to learn what others may find.

 

[jon_slider]

A good traditional Barlow has the point of the blade below the liner when closed.

does the clip point blade point lay deeper when closed compared to the spearpoint blade point or the sheepfoot point?

interesting photo op, the following knives are all with unmodified kicks
my Clip Point Charlow point sits barely 1/32nd below the liner
my Spear Point Charlow point sits 1/16th below the liner
my Sheepfoot Charlow point sits 3/16th below the liner

here are the 3 together, bottom is sheep, middle is clip, top is spear

here is the spear blade in front of the sheep, in front of the clip (if you look really close you can see the point of the clip sits barely above the point of the sheep)

here is spear in front of sheep

here is spear in front of clip

here btw, is what happens when you pair an EO notch with a Sheepfoot. You can see the blade edge showing

fwiw, it appears to me that folders are designed to only barely place the blade edge below the liners. The blade does not go very deep into the handle pocket. Even my Clip Point Charlow, can be squeezed spine towards spring when closed, with over 1/4" of additional drop into the pocket, before the blade belly touches anything in the handle.

 

[waynorth]

The geometry of the blade and spring junctions is somewhat complex.
When the blade is open, the spring pushes on the very inner end or corner of the tang while the back square in turn pushes against the end of the spring, all to keep the blade snugly open. These tensions also give you the "snap" we like to hear.
In the closed position, the spring pushes on two points of the tang, the inner end or point of the tang (the opposite side of when it is open), and the kick.
If you file the kick, you lower one of the two points, and the spring moves inward slightly. The only way to raise the spring back is to disassemble the knife, and forge the tang corner out, to push back on the spring, raising it again. This is a time consuming, and delicate operation, only achievable by the best cutlers.
The parts of a production knife are mostly NOT CNC'ed, but are fine blanked, ie. stamped. Way less expensive.
They need some cleanup - the bearing surfaces of the spring and blade etc. being especially important.
The result is some variance in how low the point sits in a closed knife, regardless of blade style. I have the luxury of being able to line up five or six identical knives, to see for myself how high or low they sit. In general, they seem to vary over about 1/8". Quite a bit in the scale of knives.
I have seen the same variance in 70 year old minty Case knives, which have a good reputation for fit and finish!

 

[getout87]

Charlie any new details for the upcoming Charlow runs?

 

[waynorth]

No answers on the "when" except it will be this year, but there will be three blade configurations:

> Single blade Spey.

> Spey with a Clip behind it, like a trapper. That configuration was produced in Sheffield, and later in Germany over the last century or so.

> Single Clip. We've done these before, but because of overwhelming requests, we are producing a short run with different handles than the first run.

I have been looking at old catalogs, and have found that the "Spey" blade configuration has also been sold as a "Budding" blade, and as a "Farmer's" blade by various cutleries.

 

[Modoc ED]

The geometry of the blade and spring junctions is somewhat complex.
When the blade is open, the spring pushes on the very inner end or corner of the tang while the back square in turn pushes against the end of the spring, all to keep the blade snugly open. These tensions also give you the "snap" we like to hear.
In the closed position, the spring pushes on two points of the tang, the inner end or point of the tang (the opposite side of when it is open), and the kick.
If you file the kick, you lower one of the two points, and the spring moves inward slightly. The only way to raise the spring back is to disassemble the knife, and forge the tang corner out, to push back on the spring, raising it again. This is a time consuming, and delicate operation, only achievable by the best cutlers.
The parts of a production knife are mostly NOT CNC'ed, but are fine blanked, ie. stamped. Way less expensive.
They need some cleanup - the bearing surfaces of the spring and blade etc. being especially important.
The result is some variance in how low the point sits in a closed knife, regardless of blade style. I have the luxury of being able to line up five or six identical knives, to see for myself how high or low they sit. In general, they seem to vary over about 1/8". Quite a bit in the scale of knives.
I have seen the same variance in 70 year old minty Case knives, which have a good reputation for fit and finish!

That's a great explanation Charlie. Sometimes, I think people are too picky, too critical, etc. about very minor details from knife to knife in a series put out by a company - Case, GEC, Northwoods, whatever. As to how a blade point may ride a bit proud, it sometimes depends on the final polishing of the frame, covers, etc. There was a time around 2010 that the points of many of GEC's 72s/73s rode just a tad proud of the frame. It turns out that in the final polishing of the frames, just a tiny bit too much was taken off the frame thereby allowing the points to ride high of the frame at that point. The most common fix for that was to file the kick but as you pointed out, it allows the backspring to sink into the frame.

Anyway, thanks for your insight.

 

[cards94]

That's a great explanation Charlie. Sometimes, I think people are too picky, too critical, etc. about very minor details from knife to knife in a series put out by a company - Case, GEC, Northwoods, whatever. As to how a blade point may ride a bit proud, it sometimes depends on the final polishing of the frame, covers, etc. There was a time around 2010 that the points of many of GEC's 72s/73s rode just a tad proud of the frame. It turns out that in the final polishing of the frames, just a tiny bit too much was taken off the frame thereby allowing the points to ride high of the frame at that point. The most common fix for that was to file the kick but as you pointed out, it allows the backspring to sink into the frame.

Anyway, thanks for your insight.

i guess thats what happens like in dr.scott's above post where he mentioned the point on his barlow and bullnose rested a tiny bit above the handle and it would catch his hand if he ran his hand over it. my question is, how can a company release a knife in this kind of condition? i'm not trying to say anything bad about the company but if it catches a persons hand ever so slightly or snags on a piece of clothing, that would bother me.

 

[cards94]

if you're sold a knife with the point a hair above the handle, can it be fixed? also, i'm still trying to figure out what a kick is or where it's located.

 

[Jack Black]

A good traditional Barlow has the point of the blade below the liner when closed.

:thumbup:

here btw, is what happens when you pair an EO notch with a Sheepfoot. You can see the blade edge showing

Ooo! I hadn't noticed that before!

I have been looking at old catalogs, and have found that the "Spey" blade configuration has also been sold as a "Budding" blade, and as a "Farmer's" blade by various cutleries.

That's interesting Charlie. The term 'farmer' is still commonly used by some Sheffield cutlers, but not to describe a spey-blade.

 

[black mamba]

if you're sold a knife with the point a hair above the handle, can it be fixed? also, i'm still trying to figure out what a kick is or where it's located.

The kick is circled in this photo.

 

[cards94]

The kick is circled in this photo.

thanks, and by the way nice knife. is that the spearpoint or sheepfoot?