What reservations would you have with taking an auto knife into the wilderness?

[silenthunterstudios]

Just like shotguns (IMO) the more parts it has, and the more complex the design/function, the better the odds of one the key parts breaking and rendering it inoperable or unsafe.

I have to agree. The only "real" auto I have is a Microtech UMS. Not exactly an unreliable piece, but, same as what Rupestris said above.

 

[STAGE 2]

You misread my statement (and looking at it, maybe it was worded poorly), what I meant was that in your view/“eyes”, autos are only good for stabbin’ someone; which were your own words:

Yes, I did misread that. And I did say that autos were for sticking people. However I think that the construction and design of most of these knives demonstrates this. They are built and marketed as defensive weapons, not tools.

That is true; you probably won’t, and never will, find a wilderness expert that carries or even endorses an auto of any sort. Does this make them useless in the woods? No. Would it hurt him to carry an auto with him into the woods (not as his only blade, mind you)? No.

I'll go one further. Id say that none of these folks would recommend an auto as a SECONDARY carry. As far as being useless, a 3 dollar made in china steak knife will have some use, but thats not the point. It wouldn't hurt him to have an auto any more than it would hurt him to have the steak knife.

However being useful and being suited to an application are two totally different things. The title of this thread asks about reservations carrying an auto in the wilderness. People with wilderness experience should have enough to know that its not a good idea.

You say you EDC an auto; is it to “show-off” to your co-workers/friends? Is it for “sticking” someone? OR, is it because it’s an easy to use, one handed knife? Just wondering…

-sh00ter

One of the reasons I carry my edc is certianly the neato factor. However my primary reason for carrying it is because its really small (1 15/16" blade) and carrys well with a suit. I prefer my endura or military, but they are too large and too bulky I really don't need that much blade in an office environment. That and its sheeple friendly. Its been dubbed the "cute" knife by several folks.

I will fully admit that the fact that its an auto makes it very very handy since its so small. However thats a really moot point since the usefulness of a folding knife with less than a 2 inch blade in the wilderness would be the same as a brick. Give me my endura or military back with their thumb hole and this problem goes away.

 

[tholiver]

In essence all knife blades are designed to cut (yeah i know d'uh! lol).

How efficiently a blade does that job depends on a bunch of factors, steel, grind, thickness, shape etc.
The mechanism by which it opens, either manual or automatic, affects the reliability/strength of that knife.
Ultimately how you use the knife is up to you.
An automatic is no more deadly than your dads old Buck 110.
Reality check-A knife is for cutting things, in the same way any firearm is just a "projectile delivery device".

 

[Runs With Scissors]

ya' know....I'm not so sure I agree with the common thought lines of "the more moving parts the more likely you are to experience failure"

It does perhaps hold true, in the most rudimentary fashion, but really....

what vehicle is more reliable, your late model truck/ sedan/ SUV, or a Model A Ford?

what rifle is more reliable, an AR-15, or a Flintlock muzzle loader?

What has more moving parts, a Swiss Army Knife, or an old Okapi?

For that matter a person could compare a Swiss Army Knife to an auto, and will find nowhere near the number of parts on most modern auto's as you will find on the average Tinker sized SAK.

There's alot to say for quality of manufacture and design when considering these things.

Just my humble opinion of course.....

 

[STAGE 2]

what vehicle is more reliable, your late model truck/ sedan/ SUV, or a Model A Ford?

what rifle is more reliable, an AR-15, or a Flintlock muzzle loader?

What has more moving parts, a Swiss Army Knife, or an old Okapi?

For that matter a person could compare a Swiss Army Knife to an auto, and will find nowhere near the number of parts on most modern auto's as you will find on the average Tinker sized SAK.

Those are all fallacious comparisons. Comparing a poor design or something very old to the latest and greatest isn't valid.

There's alot to say for quality of manufacture and design when considering these things.

True. However a quality design thats simple will always be better than a quality design thats complex.

 

[sh00ter01]

It wouldn't hurt him to have an auto any more than it would hurt him to have the steak knife.

But we’re not talking about a $3, or any cheap, auto here. A BM Mini-Rukus is one nice blade and a very stout folder:thumbup:

I will fully admit that the fact that its an auto makes it very very handy since its so small. However thats a really moot point since the usefulness of a folding knife with less than a 2 inch blade in the wilderness would be the same as a brick.

How is this a moot point? Does the handiness of an auto only apply to blades less then 2 inches?

Those are all fallacious comparisons. Comparing a poor design or something very old to the latest and greatest isn't valid.

They may not be the best comparisons, but I think the bigger point he was trying to make is simple designs aren’t always better (quality is what matters).

True. However a quality design thats simple will always be better than a quality design thats complex.

True for the most part; the OP had said that one folder he was considering was Auto BM Mini-Rukus. It’s a fairly simple design and a very sturdy knife. Many members here carry Griptilians as a woods knife (again not as their only knife), and the Rukus is more stout then any Griptilian. Plus, and correct me if I’m wrong, but if the firing spring were to fail it would then just operate like a regular non-auto Mini-Rukus or any other axis lock knife.

I think it’d be silly for anyone to rely on one knife in the woods, and I still don’t see the harm in him carrying an auto, especially a Mini-Rukus, into the woods. I know I wouldn’t hesitate to carry a Rukus, auto or not, into the woods:thumbup:

-sh00ter

 

[STAGE 2]

But we’re not talking about a $3, or any cheap, auto here. A BM Mini-Rukus is one nice blade and a very stout folder:thumbup:

Thats not the point. Having a knife, ANY knife in the wilderness is useful. But useful doesn't mean designed for or effective. Autos arent designed for wilderness use. You just cant get around that.

How is this a moot point? Does the handiness of an auto only apply to blades less then 2 inches?

Yes it does because the smaller the knife, the more difficult it is to open. "Regular" sized knives don't have this problem, and small knives where this is an issue have no business in the wilderness.

They may not be the best comparisons, but I think the bigger point he was trying to make is simple designs aren’t always better (quality is what matters).

That makes no sense. If something is crap, then the design is irrelevant. You can't polish a turd. Assuming equivalent quality however, simpler designs are less prone to problems.

I think it’d be silly for anyone to rely on one knife in the woods, and I still don’t see the harm in him carrying an auto, especially a Mini-Rukus, into the woods. I know I wouldn’t hesitate to carry a Rukus, auto or not, into the woods:thumbup:

Which brings us back to the point of why reputable outdoorsmen don't carry them and wouldn't recommend them.

 

[Ramm9]

ya' know....I'm not so sure I agree with the common thought lines of "the more moving parts the more likely you are to experience failure"

It does perhaps hold true, in the most rudimentary fashion, but really....

what vehicle is more reliable, your late model truck/ sedan/ SUV, or a Model A Ford?

what rifle is more reliable, an AR-15, or a Flintlock muzzle loader?

What has more moving parts, a Swiss Army Knife, or an old Okapi?

For that matter a person could compare a Swiss Army Knife to an auto, and will find nowhere near the number of parts on most modern auto's as you will find on the average Tinker sized SAK.

There's alot to say for quality of manufacture and design when considering these things.

Just my humble opinion of course.....

Well it can't be denied that quality will often win out but sometimes quality is due to simplicity.
Having had the opportunity to work on a Model A, and a bunch of wilderness bailing wire fix-it's on a 40's Willey's I might be inclined to go with the Model A.
I understand the Kalashnikov keeps on ticking whatever is thrown at it, maybe because of fewer parts?
A SAK and Okapi are not as mechanical as an auto are they? Besides, usually fixed blades are the first recommendation for the wilderness.
Compare a common Buck 110 to the best of auto's...which is more likely to fail?

I gotta believe an auto in the wilderness is simply for "cool" factor, and if you are on private property it is very cool. Roaming around outside of private property showing off an auto may still be cool but it doesn't seem real smart.

 

[sh00ter01]

Thats not the point. Having a knife, ANY knife in the wilderness is useful. But useful doesn't mean designed for or effective. Autos aren’t designed for wilderness use. You just cant get around that.

Are we talking about a Microtech Halo or a BM Rukus? You’ve completely ignored my statements about the Rukus as compared to the Griptilian (which is widely used as an outdoor knife). How is this useless or ineffective?

Yes it does because the smaller the knife, the more difficult it is to open. "Regular" sized knives don't have this problem, and small knives where this is an issue have no business in the wilderness.

So, you believe that any “regular” size knife can’t benefit in any way by being an auto? I really am having trouble seeing your reasoning behind this; it’s ok for you to carry a 2” auto because it’s handy, but a guy wanting to carry a 3.5” to 4” auto isn’t justified? Please help me understand...

That makes no sense. If something is crap, then the design is irrelevant. You can't polish a turd. Assuming equivalent quality however, simpler designs are less prone to problems.

Who was talking about polishing a turd? All I said was quality matters.

Which brings us back to the point of why reputable outdoorsmen don't carry them and wouldn't recommend them.

I don’t know if this was intended to be a cut on my knowledge and abilities of/in the outdoors so I’ll just ignore it.

I love a good discussion as much as the next guy, but I don’t feel like were getting anywhere

-sh00ter

 

[Lion]

Thats not the point. Having a knife, ANY knife in the wilderness is useful. But useful doesn't mean designed for or effective. Autos arent designed for wilderness use. You just cant get around that.

Did you look at hollowdweller's pictures? IMO, most of those are designed for wilderness use. And they are autos. What, in your opinion, are they designed for if not wilderness use? And what about the design makes them unsuitable for wilderness use?

I'm not trying to start an argument, just trying to understand where you're coming from.

Leo

 

[STAGE 2]

Are we talking about a Microtech Halo or a BM Rukus? You’ve completely ignored my statements about the Rukus as compared to the Griptilian (which is widely used as an outdoor knife). How is this useless or ineffective?

We are talking about autos in general (though I don't believe that the rukus is an auto). And as I said before, any knife is not useless. Said benchmade would be useful. That doesn't mean its suited to a wilderness application. You cuold sit here all day and argue how a crowbar can drive a nail just like a hammer can. While that may very well be true it doesn't mean that its suited for the job, or the best at it. Same applies here.

Autos are not suited for nor are the best for wilderness chores, partially because they are folders but partially because they are autos as well. If you want to carry one for whatever reason, by all means go ahead. Your choice to do so doesn't make them any more suitable for the bush than choosing to drive a pinto would make it any safer a car.

So, you believe that any “regular” size knife can’t benefit in any way by being an auto? I really am having trouble seeing your reasoning behind this; it’s ok for you to carry a 2” auto because it’s handy, but a guy wanting to carry a 3.5” to 4” auto isn’t justified? Please help me understand...

I carry my auto first and foremost because its small. Because its an auto its easier to handle than if it werent because a less than 2" blade isnt all that easy to get a hold of especially with bear paws like mine. Add a thumb stud or a nice big spyderco hole on it and I don't have this problem any more. Of course you can't do that because its a teeny tiny knife. Hence the problem. Of course all this is trivial since such a small knife wouldn't be of any use in the wilderness. I've never had to make firesticks or do any notching at my desk so a larger blade isn't necesssary or comfortable.

As far as larger knives benefiting, these knives have the aforementioned amenities making one handed operation a breeze. Therefore there isn't any issue with opening the knife. As I said before, autos give you speed. Thats it. Maybe not even that if yours has a safety on it. If not theres always the chance something in your pocket opens it. Things get bumped around in pockets all the time, even more so in the bush when you're negotiating with nature and carrying gear. Mine has popped open once or twice in years of carry so its certianly not impossible.


Furthermore, its not about being 'justified'. Its a free country so you can cut your grass with your busse and baton trees with a butterknife if that makes you happy. However if you're going to ask for opinions on the wisdom of doing this then be prepared for some constructive criticism. In this case that happens to be that autos aren't suited for wilderness use. This isn't just my opinion either. Its pretty much standard among folks that spend alot of time in the bush or make their livelihood out of bush skills.

Dont you think that there might be a reason people 'in the know' dont use these?

Who was talking about polishing a turd? All I said was quality matters.

Of course quality matters. But that wasn't the issue. You can't take a complex design made with quality parts and a simple design made with crap and say "a ha, you see, simpler isn't always better". Thats not a commentary on design its a commentary on quality.

I don’t know if this was intended to be a cut on my knowledge and abilities of/in the outdoors so I’ll just ignore it.

It wasn't a cut and it wasn't directed towards you. It was simply a fact. People who teach survival/bush skills wont recommend an auto for the outdoors. Again, do you think its cause they are conspiring against evil automatic knives, or do you think its because there is a real legitimate reason for it?

 

[STAGE 2]

Did you look at hollowdweller's pictures? IMO, most of those are designed for wilderness use. And they are autos. What, in your opinion, are they designed for if not wilderness use? And what about the design makes them unsuitable for wilderness use?

I'm not trying to start an argument, just trying to understand where you're coming from.

Leo

His swiss army knives on crack I think I'd place in a category of their own. They may be automatic, but they are more of an SAK than anything else. Till this thread I was unaware that such a thing existed. Personally I'd still rather have a traditional sak for the reasons I've given, but if given the choice between a regular auto and one of those, the several knives, saw and other tools make the decision a no brainer.

However, these knives are anywhere from the norm. The OP and presumably every other person here is talking about a traditional single bladed auto. That what I have been talking about and thats what my arguments have been focused on.

 

[Lion]

His swiss army knives on crack I think I'd place in a category of their own. They may be automatic, but they are more of an SAK than anything else. Till this thread I was unaware that such a thing existed. Personally I'd still rather have a traditional sak for the reasons I've given, but if given the choice between a regular auto and one of those, the several knives, saw and other tools make the decision a no brainer.

However, these knives are anywhere from the norm. The OP and presumably every other person here is talking about a traditional single bladed auto. That what I have been talking about and thats what my arguments have been focused on.

Thanks for the reply. I could argue the point about single bladed autos; talk a bit about their history and common pre ban use. But that would be arguing for the sake of arguing and that would just be silly.

Leo

 

[hollowdweller]

I love these type threads.

Since we're on page 3 now and apparently some people didn't read page 1 very well I'll chime in again.

I've owned autos for about 10 years. Mostly Hubies and Microtechs.

I go backpacking in THE WILDERNESS a lot in the summer.

For a number of years I took a Microtech LUDT or the Hubertus Camper as my only knife. I still take my Hubertus on every trip I go on.

In about 10 years of wilderness use the only failure I experienced is 1 spring breakage, and of course the knife could still be opened like any SAK even with the spring broke.

I really in real wilderness use have not experienced the failure that people are talking about.

I totally agree that an Italian Stilletto or an OTF like an UT6 are unreliable and not suited to use in the woods.

But as far as autos designed for utility use I've found they are totally fine keeping in mind the limitations of any folder and blade length.

I think that many people have a mental picture of an auto not based on the reality of the designs suited for practical use.

I think a lot of folks have some sort of unrealistic ideas on what you do with a knife when you are in the wilderness, or at least what I do with one when I am in the wilderness is maybe not as macho as some are seeming to portray here

Also I think there is a false assumption that you never clean your knife in the wilderness. An auto can easily be kept clean enough to function in primitive conditions. Take your 01 fixed blade cut up some stuff with it or get it really dirty and put it in your sheath. I'll guarantee after 4 days the stainless steel blade of the auto will still cut where the 01 will be too rusted to. All knifes require maintainence

 

[Seahawk]

Hollowdweller, I'm glad that your experience turned out for the best, unfortunately I have seen autos fail. Several folks at work carried Benchmade AFO's. We spent every other week in the woods and mountains year round. I never saw anybody do anything with a knife that I would consider abuse, but I did see some knives fail. I practice opening and closing my knives with both hands, so I don't feel the need to have an auto (this is more mindless playing with a knife when I'm bored than a dedicated practice session, but it helps).

On thing that is a factor for me as well is winter up here. Most autos that I have seen have a very small button or switch that prevents the knife from accidentally being opened. I'm not going to bare hand a metal handled knife below freezing and in all likelihood I'm wearing a pair of liner gloves regardless of what the handle is made out of. With cold hands and/or gloves on, that button gets really hard to feel or know that you have moved it to the right position without looking. That small switch also goes for most assisted opening knives that I have seen as well.

I do agree with you 100% that you have to take care of your gear. Knives, stoves, clothes whatever, nothing can be used forever without a little TLC now and then. The better you take care of your gear, the better it will take care of you.

Anyway, that is just my 2 cents. Your mileage may vary. I sincerely wish folks good luck with whatever knife they chose.

 

[Elen]

In about 10 years of wilderness use the only failure I experienced is 1 spring breakage, and of course the knife could still be opened like any SAK even with the spring broke.

Perhaps I can explain something, on behalf of the "nay-sayers" as far as automatics and folders are concerned. A lot of folks dislike folders and automatics in particular because they're prone to failure. This does not mean they break every time, or even half the time, or even one-millionth of the time. It just means they're more likely to break than something else - for example, a good fixed blade. In this case, that something else is cheaper, more efficient and more ergonomic in use, as well. So, knowing this, it's hard for some of us to even consider carrying an auto in the wilderness. Sure, you could do it, and you could get by very well, just like you could get by very well with absolutely no knife - I've done that quite a few times, and I'm supposed to be a knife nut. But why would you do it, if you have something better, cheaper, and less likely to fail? Just because?

So, in a nutshell: Sure, you can use automatics in the wild. They most likely won't break, if you use your head. Sure, you can use any knife, or indeed no knife at all in the wild - most likely you won't die because of that. But why in the heck would you do it, if you do not have to and have access to both better and cheaper options, or aren't doing it just for the sake of exercise? I personally won't carry automatics, because they're simply plain inferior in every way (except smallness of size, which isn't much of a consideration for me) to a fixed blade. Does that mean I believe automatics will instantly fall apart in the wild? Hell no. Does that mean I believe you couldn't use an automatic knife to cut things with in the wild? Hell no. Does it mean I won't carry an auto in the wild? Hell yes.

 

[sh00ter01]

We are talking about autos in general (though I don't believe that the rukus is an auto). And as I said before, any knife is not useless. Said benchmade would be useful. That doesn't mean its suited to a wilderness application. You cuold sit here all day and argue how a crowbar can drive a nail just like a hammer can. While that may very well be true it doesn't mean that its suited for the job, or the best at it. Same applies here.

That Rukus isn’t a auto, but that exact model can be an auto, I linked you to the wrong page. Here’s the actually auto model. Comparing a crowbar to a hammer isn’t exactly the same as comparing one knife (an auto) to another (I assume it’s a fixed blade that you prefer, correct me if I’m wrong). I’m also curious what task you expect your folders (or blades in general) to do in the woods?

Furthermore, its not about being 'justified'. Its a free country so you can cut your grass with your busse and baton trees with a butterknife if that makes you happy. However if you're going to ask for opinions on the wisdom of doing this then be prepared for some constructive criticism. In this case that happens to be that autos aren't suited for wilderness use. This isn't just my opinion either. Its pretty much standard among folks that spend alot of time in the bush or make their livelihood out of bush skills.

I know that fixed blades are always the preferred outdoor blade, and I’m not saying “don’t carry a fixed blade, you’ll be just fine with only that auto”. I’m saying “carry what you normally would and if you want to bring the auto, go ahead ‘cause it can’t hurt”.

It wasn't a cut and it wasn't directed towards you. It was simply a fact. People who teach survival/bush skills wont recommend an auto for the outdoors. Again, do you think its cause they are conspiring against evil automatic knives, or do you think its because there is a real legitimate reason for it?

Fair enough. Although I still can’t see how carrying an auto (in addition to a fixed blade), could hurt someone in any way. If you can think of how it would I’d love to here it; I mean worse case scenario, you put away the auto and use the fixed blade.

I really in real wilderness use have not experienced the failure that people are talking about.

... as far as autos designed for utility use I've found they are totally fine keeping in mind the limitations of any folder and blade length.

I think that many people have a mental picture of an auto not based on the reality of the designs suited for practical use.

I think a lot of folks have some sort of unrealistic ideas on what you do with a knife when you are in the wilderness...

All good points HD:thumbup:

-sh00ter

 

[Runs With Scissors]

Well it can't be denied that quality will often win out but sometimes quality is due to simplicity.
Having had the opportunity to work on a Model A, and a bunch of wilderness bailing wire fix-it's on a 40's Willey's I might be inclined to go with the Model A.

I do my own share of wrenching on Jeeps new and old. (Would like to buy a Willy's infact, but good luck finding a decent one here in Alaska) Speaking as a man who has wilted and burned every tree, plant, flower and poisoned the air with streams of vile obscenity while working on the newer horizontal mount engines I truly do understand and appreciate the simplicity of older, simpler, technology. However, If I had to head out on the Alcan today My '76 3/4 Chevy truck would remain in the yard while I drove my wife's '99 Buick. (Even though I do believe the 3.1 engine in it was designed by someone who REALLY, REALLY hated mechanics)

I understand the Kalashnikov keeps on ticking whatever is thrown at it, maybe because of fewer parts?

Granted, However the increase in parts in Technology may be the reason an AR-15 holds accuracy records while hitting a pie plate at 100 yds. with an AK is considered to be some mighty fine shootin'. But, we dare not venture any further down that road. Next thing'll be Ford Vs. Chevy, 9mm Vs. .45, 1911 Vs. Glock, and auto Vs. revolver.......

A SAK and Okapi are not as mechanical as an auto are they? Besides, usually fixed blades are the first recommendation for the wilderness.
Compare a common Buck 110 to the best of auto's...which is more likely to fail?

Yup, Fixed blades are my favorite too, but I won't discount an auto over any other folder due to it's possession of a spring, a button, and perhaps a sear.
The Buck 110 Vs. a decent auto thing? uhmm....they both could be passed onto Grandchildren and Great Grand children IMHO. I aint about to thump my chest and say an auto is the "best" for anything. Although I believe it's as legitimate an option as any other well chosen folder.

I gotta believe an auto in the wilderness is simply for "cool" factor, and if you are on private property it is very cool. Roaming around outside of private property showing off an auto may still be cool but it doesn't seem real smart.

I'm not entirely sure what motivates a man to carry an auto in the woods. I myself have done it as an experiment, and because I thought the knives were pretty cool. Never in a hurry to show off any of my knives while camping. (especially since 2/3 of the people you encounter up here are armed with large revolvers and shotguns)



Hell, my favorite knives are Scandinavian fixed blades, my favorite guns muzzleloaders, and my favorite vehicle a 17 year old Jeep Wrangler. I'm the last guy to suggest techno geekiness for the sheer sake thereof, but I'm not gonna beat up on anyone else's cholce either. Well, unless it's potentially dangerous, but even then I'll beat up on the choice in a kind, brotherly sorta fashion.

 

[STAGE 2]

That Rukus isn’t a auto, but that exact model can be an auto, I linked you to the wrong page. Here’s the actually auto model. Comparing a crowbar to a hammer isn’t exactly the same as comparing one knife (an auto) to another (I assume it’s a fixed blade that you prefer, correct me if I’m wrong). I’m also curious what task you expect your folders (or blades in general) to do in the woods?

I hope you're not going to try and dispute the point that fixed blades are far better than folders for bush use. As far as the crowbar example, the point still fits. You are arguing that because autos have some use, the its fine to take them in the bush. You can take ANYTHING into the bush, but as I said before that doesn't make it the best thing for the job. Autos are definately not the best thing for the job.

As far as what I expect my folders to do, thats only part of the issue. You see I have this nagging problem of picking the best tool for the job because you never know whats going to happen. You see its easy to say "oh if it breaks I can just open it manually." Well what about if your hand is busted? Autos don't have thumb studs or holes. And then there's the problem of having it open on you when you don't want it to. And there's also the issue of wet/bloody hands and a sharp fast moving blade. Bad juju.

For all these reasons and more, autos just arent the knife for the wilderness.

I know that fixed blades are always the preferred outdoor blade, and I’m not saying “don’t carry a fixed blade, you’ll be just fine with only that auto”. I’m saying “carry what you normally would and if you want to bring the auto, go ahead ‘cause it can’t hurt”.

But thats the problem. It can hurt both literally and figuratively, which is why bush experts don't recommend it.

Fair enough. Although I still can’t see how carrying an auto (in addition to a fixed blade), could hurt someone in any way. If you can think of how it would I’d love to here it; I mean worse case scenario, you put away the auto and use the fixed blade.

See above.

 

[hollowdweller]

IWell what about if your hand is busted? Autos don't have thumb studs or holes. And then there's the problem of having it open on you when you don't want it to. And there's also the issue of wet/bloody hands and a sharp fast moving blade. Bad juju. .

Ok you're starting to make me laugh now.

:thumbup:

Next time I go out no autos. I want my rambo knife in case if I'm injured in a pool of mud with cougars closing in.