What the hell can you carry in England? nail clippers?

[anvilring]

This makes me sorry for the Brits...

http://www.cnn.com/video/?/video/world/2008/05/29/fawcett.uk.anti.knife.campaign.itn

 

[TOM1960]

A STORMFRONT (link removed) forum member who happened to live in Great Britain (London) had the same lament. Over there, all police searches are legal because there is no Constitutional right to privacy like we have. Police do not need probable cause, either. The only advice that I could give to the guy was to dress appropriately, keep well-groomed and carry a 3" to 4" lightweight lockblade knife completely concealed in the strong-side front trouser pocket. I advised him to remove the pocket clip and to carry it pivot-down, deep in the pocket. Yes, he risks arrest on a serious charge if caught, but if his dress and demeanor are above reproach, it is highly unlikely that he will attract the attention of a LEO. He would have to weigh the likelihood of becoming an unarmed victim of violent crime in an increasingly crime-prone country against the likelihood of being arrested, charged and convicted of carrying a concealed knife ( a felony over there!)BTW, Ken C., please do not be a complete jerk and edit my post again. You sound like a real liberal. Maybe you should go work for Ted Kennedy or that idiot Morris Dees at the Southern Poverty Law Center!!

 

[Lawmandan]

I love it when people who haven't got the faintest idea what they are talking about give advice.



It's quite legal to carry a knife in the UK, within certain clearly defined legal parameters.

All sub 3" slipjoints are legal and require no justification for carrying. Further to that if you can show you have good reason for carrying a knife, or need it for work, you can carry any other sort of knife, with the exception of automatics, balisongs and push daggers. Self defence is not a good reason, just as it isn't in many parts of the US and the rest of the world.

Someone can only be stopped and searched in the UK if the police officer has a reasonable suspicion of an offence being committed, and that cannot be based on something as simple as dress, ethnic origins or even a previous record. The officer must have a real reason for the suspicion that will stand up in court.

Danzo

 

[General Specific]

Yes, I agree, self-defense is not a good reason to carry a knife in the UK because chances are, your assailant will either have a gun or a bigger knife. So, you should just curl up in a ball and blow your rape whistle until the bobbies arrive with their night sticks.

Regards,

Dave

 

[stabman]

The advice I'd give a STORMFRONT member would be to grow up or get the hell off the planet.:thumbdn:
For DECENT people in Britain, I'd recommend the Spyderco UKPK.:thumbup:

 

[Lawmandan]

The advice I'd give a STORMFRONT member would be to grow up or get the hell off the planet

The Nazi scum from Stormfront should be able to read up on UK knife law themselves as they stole an article written by me and posted it on their sick and twisted website without my permission and in breach of both my copyright and that of the owner of the site I wrote it for.

You are quite right about the UKPK though, and of course the upcoming Spyderco Urban. Plus of course many hundreds of other slipjoint folders.

Danzo

 

[anvilring]

Lawmandan writes:

"Self defense is not a good reason, just as it isn't in many parts of the US and the rest of the world."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, I take it your advice is "no" self defense?

Just curious, but from which state do you hail?, and, do you approve of licensed concealed handgun carry?

 

[Lawmandan]

So, I take it your advice is "no" self defense?

Just curious, but from which state do you hail?, and, do you approve of licensed concealed handgun carry?

I'm from the UK. The fair city of Nottingham.

I totally support the right to self defence, and that is also enshrined in English law. Every UK citizen has the right to exercise force in self defence, or the defence of others, up to and including lethal force. Which is how it should be of course.

However the way our law has evolved is that carrying anything specifically for self defence is illegal. I don't agree with that, but that's how it is.

If I lived in the US I would totally support licensed concealed handgun carry and would carry myself if I lived in a state that allowed it.

We have a problem in the UK at the moment with considerable media and government hysteria over what is perceived as a problem with 'knife-crime' in amongst young people. The limited statistics available don't really support the level of worry about the problem, but high profile killings of young people does create a perceived epidemic of such crime.

I know a little bit about all of this as a college Law lecturer and legal author of eighteen years experience, as well as being the moderator of the Law forum at www.britishblades.com and the author of articles on UK knife law for other websites and the adviser on the law for UK magazines.

Danzo

 

[TOM1960]

I love it when people who haven't got the faintest idea what they are talking about give advice.



It's quite legal to carry a knife in the UK, within certain clearly defined legal parameters.

All sub 3" slipjoints are legal and require no justification for carrying. Further to that if you can show you have good reason for carrying a knife, or need it for work, you can carry any other sort of knife, with the exception of automatics, balisongs and push daggers. Self defence is not a good reason, just as it isn't in many parts of the US and the rest of the world.

Someone can only be stopped and searched in the UK if the police officer has a reasonable suspicion of an offence being committed, and that cannot be based on something as simple as dress, ethnic origins or even a previous record. The officer must have a real reason for the suspicion that will stand up in court.

Danzo

If what you say is indeed fact, then why are police setting up airport-type metal detectors on city sidewalks and marching pedestrians through them? Is it part of the anti-knife campaign that is underway in Great Britain?

 

[Lawmandan]

If what you say is indeed fact, then why are police setting up airport-type metal detectors on city sidewalks and marching pedestrians through them? Is it part of the anti-knife campaign that is underway in Great Britain?

There is a campaign against what is termed as 'knife-crime' here in the UK as result of a series of killings amongst young people.

It worries those of us over this side of the pond who love knives as tools and not weapons.

However that doesn't change the fact that UK knife laws are very far from being the complete ban that many people in the USA perceive it to be. Over on www.britishblades.com we have seven thousand members on a forum that has been running for six years.

In that time our members have reported less than half a dozen "stop and searches" and to the best of my knowledge only a single arrest. And that incident was as a result of a member of ours (a hugely talented knifemaker) who was arrested after an incident whilst working as a nightclub doorman. He punched out a troublemaker, the incident escalated and the police became involved. He was arrested and the issue of his UKPK was raised, but there was no subsequent prosecution.

Danzo

 

[rifon2]

I love it when people who haven't got the faintest idea what they are talking about give advice.



It's quite legal to carry a knife in the UK, within certain clearly defined legal parameters.

All sub 3" slipjoints are legal and require no justification for carrying. Further to that if you can show you have good reason for carrying a knife, or need it for work, you can carry any other sort of knife, with the exception of automatics, balisongs and push daggers. Self defence is not a good reason, just as it isn't in many parts of the US and the rest of the world.

Someone can only be stopped and searched in the UK if the police officer has a reasonable suspicion of an offence being committed, and that cannot be based on something as simple as dress, ethnic origins or even a previous record. The officer must have a real reason for the suspicion that will stand up in court.

Danzo

Well, we see stuff like this and wonder:


Police officers can now search people for knives and guns without reasonable suspicion they may be carrying a weapon.

"Officers launched Operation Blunt 2, targeting 10 London boroughs and using controversial powers under Section 60 of the Public Order Act to designate areas where anyone can be stopped and searched, in what they said would be "in your face policing".
Under Section 60 officers do not need reasonable suspicion to search someone. There will be 10 search teams each consisting of up to 15 officers who can be deployed anywhere in the city."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1953088/Met-declares-war-on-knife-crime-gangs.html

 

[Lawmandan]

Hi rifon

You have the words 'controversial powers' in the quote you post. It is indeed controversial for us here in the UK.

We are discussing this over on Britishblades at the moment. My own opinion is that the use of s60 of the Public order Act 1994 to do this sort of stop and search is probably illegal, and I suspect the courts will agree.

To apply the provision it requires a senior police officer to have a reasonable suspicion of there being a violent incident being imminent in the locale. The law was passed mainly to allow a blanket close down of an area following football (soccer) matches after serious hooligan problems.

It isn't intended to give the police powers to arrest and search without good reason, and English judges are not keen on the Police approbating existing legislation to give themselves wider powers.

We do have a problem here, and it worries us, but my point is that is UK law is a long way from being as draconian as many of our good cousins across the big pond believe.

Danzo

 

[rifon2]

Hi rifon

You have the words 'controversial powers' in the quote you post. It is indeed controversial for us here in the UK.

We are discussing this over on Britishblades at the moment.

Glad to hear it and hope you folks can help to push back against this government/police activity.

Please keep us posted!

 

[Lawmandan]

Glad to hear it and hope you folks can help to push back against this government/police activity.

Please keep us posted!

Thanks rifon.

It's often difficult to make folks on your side of the pond understand that we actually have pretty liberal knife laws in the UK, certainly when compared to some of the horror stories I read here from New York City.

Today I was carrying a Spyderco Sage when I went to the store. I didn't get arrested and got home safely with several bottles of South African shiraz-pinotage. And very nice they were too.



Danzo

 

[anvilring]

"I didn't get arrested and got home safely with several bottles of South African Shiraz-pinotage. And very nice they were too."

-------------------------------------------------------------

Here at home, Shiraz=petite sirah...

but pinotage???? :jerkit: uh...what's that?

I've heard of/drank plenty of, pinot noir. and I've drank Hermitage (sparingly)... but WTF is "pinotage"??

My "date of late" has been Oxford Landing's Viognier 2006.... were doing two bottles a night.

In my defence; Traci helps a lot!

 

[Berkley]

my point is that is UK law is a long way from being as draconian as many of our good cousins across the big pond believe

The Times
May 30, 2008
Police seize scores of knives in a search of 4,000 suspects

More than four thousand people have been stopped and searched in London in the past two weeks as police try to address public concern over young people carrying knives.
The £1 million operation has led to the seizure of almost 200 weapons and to 210 arrests. Officers have used airport-style search arches and metal-detecting wands on the streets.
The Home Office announced an advertising campaign yesterday with shocking images of the damage that can be done with a knife. One shows a man with a knife sticking out of his stomach, and another shows a hand from which the thumb has been severed.
Although the campaign highlights injuries caused by a Swiss Army knife, police have revealed that the majority of weapons seized from teenagers had been taken from their kitchens. The law forbids anyone under the age of 18 from buying a knife of any kind.
In Operation Blunt 2, senior officers have taken the unusual step of authorising emergency powers, known as Section 60 orders, almost 100 times to give themselves the power to stop anyone even without reasonable suspicion. ....Sir Ian Blair, the Metropolitan Police Commissioner... said: “We do not accept that this is an aggressive tactic. It is robust because it has to be. The message to officers is clear, ‘This has got to be done with respect’. But search arches do give us a very significant ability people through very fast. It is equivalent to an airport search. We put these in places where people have not got much time to think that they are not going through them.
“If they turn away that is of great interest to us and we go and have a conversation with them.”
He added: “[Operation] Blunt will stop when the murders start to reduce because we just cannot go on at this level of deaths in this age group in a city where crime in terms of violence is falling. This outweighs all the other successes of the Met.”
Operation Blunt 2 is under way in all 32 London boroughs, but extra resources are being sent to the ten worst-hit areas including Lambeth, Southwark and Croydon.
Since the operation started two weeks ago officers have used airport-style search arches 54 times, implemented Section 60 powers 95 times and carried out 51 weapon sweeps.

Speaking as a criminal defense attorney, former prosecutor, and member of both British Blades and BladeForums, I have to say that British laws may not be Draconian in their letter, but are being applied in a most authoritarian manner. As Benjamin Franklin observed, "They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security". More accurately and less accusatorially, they are likely to have neither, whatever their just deserts.

 

[Esav Benyamin]

How much of what seems like a current crackdown in London is the result of recent elections, and the new mayor wanting to start off looking effective?

 

[rifon2]

Speaking as a criminal defense attorney, former prosecutor, and member of both British Blades and BladeForums, I have to say that British laws may not be Draconian in their letter, but are being applied in a most authoritarian manner.

How much of what seems like a current crackdown in London is the result of recent elections, and the new mayor wanting to start off looking effective?

London Mayor Boris Johnson is no friend of freedom


..."Boris's "knife arches" send an important message about the shifting relationship between the state and the individual. If we must pass under a "knife arch" when we hop on a bus or even pop to the shops, then we are no longer free citizens—we are objects of suspicion and potential criminals. These arches, like his booze ban and his threats against misbehaving youth, will radically alter life in London, making its inhabitants feel even more watched and distrusted than we were under his Labourite predecessor, Ken Livingstone."

..."Prime Ministers Tony Blair and Gordon Brown coated Britain in CCTV cameras, dished out Anti-Social Behaviour Orders (ASBO) to misbehaving kids, brought in new laws to limit free speech, and basically turned Britain into an open prison..."


http://www.reason.com/news/show/126723.html

 

[Lawmandan]

Here at home, Shiraz=petite sirah...

but pinotage???? :jerkit: uh...what's that?

I've heard of/drank plenty of, pinot noir. and I've drank Hermitage (sparingly)... but WTF is "pinotage"

It's a South African grape variety, a cross between Pinot Noir and Cinsaut:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinotage

Danzo

 

[Gadgetman7]

This issue is not limited to the UK. It happens everywhere. Look at NYC, or Norway and to some extent Mexico. It's a knee jerk reaction to a perception. Politicians make their living on controversy and their ability to solve it. If there is a problem that can't be easily solved they use highly publicized feel good tactics. TSA forbidding SAK's for example - even with locked cockpits.

The real issue is that it is difficult to liberalize laws after harsh measures are put in place. I hope that the citizens of the UK decide to change leadership and change policy.

Having said that, I hope knife companies step up and counter some of the negative publicity but they just seem to want to lay low and hope it goes away.