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What to do when....
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BP_
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I think it's a consensus at this point, and for the clarity I thank you all. I guess in thinking about it, I could understand how a person could feel a certain way about something like that, no matter how many different design variations there are out there. I suppose I just wanted some clarity based on my reasoning for even asking such a question. hind sight is always 20/20 though, right? thanks again guys. I appreciate it, and I appreciate being part of such a great community. [emoji4]
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What knife is it. Maybe someone here will slightly tweak the design. Then it's just inspired not a copy
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With the concerns out in the air with given maker, it would be proper to see whether that maker is okay having another dude make the knife. That way no surprise or hard feelings around. Or maybe the maker might say that he can do it.
That's what Rambo would do.
That's what Rambo would do.
BP_
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it's a variation of a Nessmuk design. I think I'll probably put it to bed and sleep on it for now, take the advice of those a lot smarter than myself, and commission a new variation of said design. in the end, I'll have my own personal piece of cutlery [emoji5]
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Agree with Marci here...
You don't want to deal with a maker because they are basically "unethical" but you don't seem to find it unethical to have someone copy their design?!
Same as buying a Strider clone because you can't afford the real deal and trying to justify that.
It's your values, you do whatever you feel is necessary....personally, there is no knife so perfect that I would compromise my ethical beliefs to get it.
Wowbagger
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Wow cool.
I pretty much never see a knife that I like ALL of.
I would wind up modding the heck out of about anything.
Do you really have to give him bucks up front ? If so isn't that like a contract ? If so doesn't that contract have a time limit or money back ?
Did you ever see the movie American Flyers ? . . . refund ! . . . Refund ! . . . REFUND ! . . . REFUND ! . . . REFUND ! . . . Refund ! . . . refund !
Heck I have never seen a custom that I like enough to pay and wait for.
Ha, ha, ha to see how silly I was thinking the other day I was thinking in a fantasy world I would order a Phil Wilson to get the superior blade heat treat and thinness where it counts and then cut the blade off and turn it into a folder with Ti handles that I would make my self.
Blasphomous . . . unspeakable imaginings; I know I should be cut down where I stand . . . but I'm sitting on the couch so . . .
So you see you are fortunate to find a maker that pleases you.
I'd go camp on his lawn . . . hang around his back door . . . eat his children . . . he will turn out the knife right quick just to get rid of you.
But that's just me . . .
BP_
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to be honest, my thought about questioning the ethics of it was the reason I asked the question in the first place. I had no idea anyone would take it so personally, but I also don't feel it was exactly "common sense" considering the amount of variations of this particular design. I don't expect anyone to make an exact copy, my choice of words there was definitely a fire starter, which I understand. I like the blade shape the most, and while I also like the handle, I actually have another idea that I think would fit well, or perhaps even better. I am not retracting my statement, or trying to backpedal, just admitting my choice to use the word 'duplicate' was ill advised without being specific to the blade itself. I meant duplicate the blade design, my mistake. I see how a person could take it to heart. but let's try to understand I just wasn't specific, when I definitely should have been, typing that section of my post.
as for paying up front for a custom knife, there are countless threads on this very forum that strongly advise against it. there are also plenty of threads where people got burned for doing so. I don't really have the time, money, or desire to pursue a lawsuit to the end, or camp on some guys lawn. I would rather listen to good advice and not pay up front.
consider me profoundly educated in more ways than expected, and also called out on my verbiage. [emoji38]
as for paying up front for a custom knife, there are countless threads on this very forum that strongly advise against it. there are also plenty of threads where people got burned for doing so. I don't really have the time, money, or desire to pursue a lawsuit to the end, or camp on some guys lawn. I would rather listen to good advice and not pay up front.
consider me profoundly educated in more ways than expected, and also called out on my verbiage. [emoji38]
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YOU may be done and have your answer, but WE'RE not. This is the Internet; we're just getting warmed up! [emoji38]
I'm in the camp that asking one maker to clone another maker's work is basically forgery and not karmically wise.
It's muddier if you're asking another maker to create their interpretation of a pattern or type of knife. Barlow knives were brought up earlier; many makers make Barlow knives. Another style (Kepler? Kempner? Can't scroll back right now) was shown as interpreted by Bark Rover and Fiddleback Forge, I believe.
I would think you're in the right to discuss with a maker about a custom knife in the style of whatever you're looking for. If you push for particular lines or features unique to the knife from the-maker-who-shall-not-be-named, then it veers back into commissioned forgery territory.
I don't know how old a style of knife has to be to be considered a common pattern rather than a signature piece. It seems more of a common sense distinction (barring actual copyright, trademark, or patent laws).
Best of luck, and at the end of the day, buy a knife if it makes you happy. It's not like I'll be cutting with it.
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Petunia D. Feeble
I sharpen things.
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There's a gray area here where you, as well as the maker you may commission, have to decide whether you're copying another artists work or simply appropriating a good idea.
I'll use Cadillac as an example. If you made an exact aesthetic replica of a Cadillac Escalade, but used an old Ford drive train, you'd absolutely be guilty of stealing an artists design. The rest of the auto industry's use of Cadillac's unique control layout 100 years ago, resulting in the way most vehicle controls are configured today was just the appropriation of a good idea. Ultimately making vehicles easier to operate for us all.
If you like the combination of a pretty standard blade shape and the ergonomics of a certain handle, I don't think you're out of line asking another, more reputable maker to do something along the same lines. If however you simply commission someone to render an exact copy of an original work, it's no better than buying a forgery in my book.
I'll use Cadillac as an example. If you made an exact aesthetic replica of a Cadillac Escalade, but used an old Ford drive train, you'd absolutely be guilty of stealing an artists design. The rest of the auto industry's use of Cadillac's unique control layout 100 years ago, resulting in the way most vehicle controls are configured today was just the appropriation of a good idea. Ultimately making vehicles easier to operate for us all.
If you like the combination of a pretty standard blade shape and the ergonomics of a certain handle, I don't think you're out of line asking another, more reputable maker to do something along the same lines. If however you simply commission someone to render an exact copy of an original work, it's no better than buying a forgery in my book.
I don't think you were out of line for asking the question. You didn't do it, just asked. The interpretation is the way to go. You said it was a Nessmuk style, so geez, how many thousands of variations are there out there for that one. Besides, form follows function. That's a true user's style of blade, you could probably find a caveman carrying around a blade that you would recognize/categorize as a "Nessmuk". I doubt there's very many "new" knives out there, just improvements or differences in materials.
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Great example. Only difference is legally, unless the knife has any trademark/copyright to it then anyone can use it. Take the game candy crush for example. I can't remember but I believe the maker copied an un copyrighted game then copyrighted it and took legal action against the guy who made it first but didn't copyright. In my mind taking a design that isn't copyrighted and tweaking it slightly is fine as long as you don't copyright it. If you take an idea copy it then copyright it you're an ***hole. Change one grind line adjust a position of a pin in the handle add lanyard hole and you're in the green if no copyright. If there is copyright then add or subtract some jimping as well and you should be fine. Just make sure to remember it's inspired not copied. Not trying to add personal beliefs but I think copyrights are stupid and we as a society would progress further without them.
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Petunia D. Feeble
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A fair point, but I seriously doubt any legal teams would get involved over a single knife, so I was really just speaking to the moral dilemma of asking a maker to "copy" another makers work.
If it's just a nessmuk with a particular set of proportions that you like, absolutely. I wouldn't hesitate to have someone else make it. It's been copied and recopied a thousand times. The less than reputable maker that you're trying to avoid doesn't have any more right to the nessmuk style than you or I do.
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Ditto brother.
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I don't think it's unethical at all to make a knife similar to someone else knife, as long as it's not a direct copy and you're not trying to pass off as that particular knife (clone).
In the kitchen knife world, most chef knives are very similar.
it's like asking if it's unethical if an American knife maker makes japanese knives that are nearly copies of japanese knives. Who cares?
My money goes to the better company with better customer service.
If there was a knife I wanted very badly, and they were known to have bad reputation , I'm sure I could find a competent knife maker who could look at the desired knife and make small adjustments to make it unique but still have all the desired features.
In the kitchen knife world, most chef knives are very similar.
it's like asking if it's unethical if an American knife maker makes japanese knives that are nearly copies of japanese knives. Who cares?
My money goes to the better company with better customer service.
If there was a knife I wanted very badly, and they were known to have bad reputation , I'm sure I could find a competent knife maker who could look at the desired knife and make small adjustments to make it unique but still have all the desired features.
One other thought. If you know the elements of a traditional nessmuk that you do not like, as well as some of the characteristics of this one that you do like, then work with one of the awesome makers on the forum and handcraft what you are looking for. Give the knifemaker some direction, i.e. The elements that really grab you, and then let them fill in the blanks. Since you seem enamored with the blade shape, maybe this is the starting point of the discussion. Without more details (and I understand why you did not include them) it is hard to know what makes this knife unique and how much can be interpreted vs copied.
palonej
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If I remember correctly, a rare occurrence, there is a maker here who builds a somewhat similar style of knife. He contributed in the thread speaking of that questionable maker. He won't take full payment up front either.
It is NOT a copy. Think I might go with this option, if I really wanted the knife.
No harm, no foul.
Good luck!
Joe
It is NOT a copy. Think I might go with this option, if I really wanted the knife.
No harm, no foul.
Good luck!
Joe
