What to Say to the Police?

Confederate said:
To disallow any discretion on the part of individual officers is to usher in a police state. I know an Arizona cop who pulled over a guy who was speeding. He was fully cooperative and harmless, but they asked him if they could search his car and he, feeling nothing to hide, answered yes. So they searched.

Under the passenger's seat, all caked in dust and debris, was a Jennings J22 pistol. No ammunition was in the car and there was no magazine. It looked like it had been kicking around the car for some time. The driver said he had no idea where it came from and these two cops believed him.

But they still arrested him.

Cops, magistrates, juries, judges and what not have, and are supposed to have discretion, otherwise we end up with a police state.

With knives, 4-inchers can be adequately used as a weapon and longer blades really don't add much to their lethality. Police have to look at the guy they've stopped and size him up. Take away discretion and it doesn't work.
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Perception is everything. Those piece of junk Jennings pistols are often seen as a weapon of choice for thugs due to their low cost. I'm not so sure that this guy would have been arrested if the cops found an expensive, high quality handgun. It's not fair but this is exactly why discretion in necessary.
 
SAKowner said:
Perception is everything. Those piece of junk Jennings pistols are often seen as a weapon of choice for thugs due to their low cost. I'm not so sure that this guy would have been arrested if the cops found an expensive, high quality handgun. It's not fair but this is exactly why discretion in necessary.
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Well here's the thing. It was a handgun. Handguns in the majority of states are governed by entirely different statutes and sets of rules than knives. In my state, all dangerous weapons are covered under Title 4-101, but handguns are specifically excluded from this statute, and are instead governed under 4-201. Such statutory distinctions sometimes deprive the officer of his discretion, forcing him to arrest everyone who violates the statute regardless of his personal judgement.

Although it is worth noting: It was not mentioned if the man was convicted. Somehow I have a feeling the charges were either dropped or he was found not guilty. This is why we have courts afterall.
 
glistam said:
Well here's the thing. It was a handgun. Handguns in the majority of states are governed by entirely different statutes and sets of rules than knives. In my state, all dangerous weapons are covered under Title 4-101, but handguns are specifically excluded from this statute, and are instead governed under 4-201. Such statutory distinctions sometimes deprive the officer of his discretion, forcing him to arrest everyone who violates the statute regardless of his personal judgement.

Although it is worth noting: It was not mentioned if the man was convicted. Somehow I have a feeling the charges were either dropped or he was found not guilty. This is why we have courts afterall.
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Arizona is a very pro-gun State. From what I know about their gun laws a CCW permit is required if you want to carry a handgun concealed. Open carry requires no permit. I'm not sure if a handgun under the seat of a car would be considered concealed carry (in Arizona) since the gun was not in a compartment that can be closed for true concealment.

So what this case looks like is: the guy was speeding, the cops saw a cheap piece of junk J22 pistol in his car, the cops consider the J22 a pistol of choice for thugs, they decided to bust the guy.
Definitely not fair but perhaps there's more to this story than we were told. Maybe the guy dressed and looked like a gangbanger or had a prior criminal record. But I find it hard to believe that in a pro-gun, pro-knife State like Arizona someone would be arrested just for having a handgun in their car.
 
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glistam said:
It was not mentioned if the man was convicted. Somehow I have a feeling the charges were either dropped or he was found not guilty. This is why we have courts afterall.
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Yes, but it's also why we have attorneys, and they cost a lot of money.

I asked my friend and he said he had the discretion of letting the guy go. I mean, they guy gave him permission to search his car. Had it been loaded and in reach, it might have made a difference (depends on whether he had any priors or not) and how he treated me. I hate to say it, but people who give the cops permission to search them or their cars or homes I think are nuts. If the police want a good ongoing relationship with the citizenry, they're going to have to establish and maintain it. If they use their discretion unwisely, then the citizenry are going to close their pocket books and not support the police. Police also should remember that a fair number of private citizens roll up their sleeves and help them in many situations, and they occasionally risk their lives to save police officers from criminals. The last thing they need to do is haul some harmless old guy into court for having a cheap pistol with no ammo and no clips. The guy had no criminal record, he was polite and cooperative and he should never have been treated like he was. As for the pistol itself, I have a Jennings and they're fine. Ultimately you have to judge the person, not the pistol. That it may have been a weapon of "choice" of some street thug makes not a whit of difference.

Jennings.jpg


The Jenning is hardly threatening.
 
Confederate said:
I have a Jennings and they're fine. Ultimately you have to judge the person, not the pistol. That it may have been a weapon of "choice" of some street thug makes not a whit of difference.

Jennings.jpg


The Jenning is hardly threatening.
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That's what most of us here believe. I agree that the price and quality of the gun should never be a factor in determining whether someone is arrested or not.

Too bad it doesn't work this way in the real world. Cheap pistols like the J22 are used by thugs to commit murder then throw away the gun because they can easily afford to buy a new one. This gets overblown to the point that cities and States label every cheap gun a "saturday night special" and try to restrict their manufacture, sale, and possession. So what are most cops going to think when they pull someone over for speeding and find a gun like that J22 under the car seat?

Now knife owners are facing the same kind of crap for carrying assisted-opening knives which are being labeled "switchblades" by ignorant politicians and the press.

So it doesn't matter how you feel about your knives and/or guns even if you are right and the majority of people are wrong. All that matters is how the rest of society feels about it because that's a pretty good indicator of how cops will see you and whether or not you will be arrested for weapon possession and go to jail. And if you ever find yourself on trial for weapon possession the jury will probably be full of sheeple so the odds won't be in your favor.

Living in NYC I learned to accept this a long time ago. For example a fixed-blade knife isn't technically illegal in NYC but I would never carry one.

This topic is about what to say to the police. However it may be a better idea to know what not to say to the police.

-Never say that you carry a knife for self-defense.

-Never give them consent to search your car or home without a warrant.

-Never say that you don't know how that knife/gun got there. Even if you are telling the truth the cops will think that you are lying.

-Never say that you have any weapons on you unless you have a gun. A knife is always a tool. :rolleyes:

-Never tell a cop "you are wrong because according to the law this knife is legal". Just don't do it, you will only piss them off.

Like someone here said earlier, you can't talk your way out of jail but you can sure talk your way into one. When dealing with the police think "what will the sheeple think of this?" before you say anything.
 
Great post, SAKOwner. One of the best I've seen here. Thanks. If people would only learn those things ahead of time, they could save themselves a lot of grief.
 
SAKowner, I agree with all you said, except for informing the officer of the law, if you are about to be arrested and feel that it is not a valid arrest. I would not start a to quote the law at the on set, but when you hear the words" turn around sir" the cuffs are coming out. I would allow them to cuff you, and then explain how you have been informed that the knife you possess as a tool is not illegal because........ An officer can cuff you while questioning you for "officer safety" reasons and still not have put himself in a must arrest situation. If you can then quote to him the law and how you understand it, and request a supervisor respond if he does not agree. As long as you do this all respectfully, it will not hurt. In NY, under section 35 of the Penal Law, it states that a defense for a crime you are charged with is to stated that you were informed by a rep of the government that the actions you were taking were legal prior to the commission of that crime, so if you have been advised that a knife was legal by a officer, DA etc, and make that a point before your arrest it MAY help.
 
mercop said:
When most police get on the job they imagine they will be protecting the good from the evil. You learn pretty fast that is not the case. I have been working in Hillbilly Heights & the Ghetto for over a decade and I have never worked an assault where a citizen has protected themselves against a criminal. Most of the time we have volunteers not victims and one goof vs another.
Most people who stay away from stupid places, things and people will never be the victim of criminal violence. Of course many have to live in bad places or at least work in them. Some things in this post may upset people but they are true in the eyes of the police and may help you out in the end.
When the police respond to the call after you have just defended yourself understand that whether it is a traffic stop or an assault, to a patrolman a job is a job. He wants to get it over and done with and get on to the next one so he can go home. The idea is to make your case easy for him to work without giving up your rights. Here are some ideas and random thoughts. I include these in all my classes.
· Be the first to report the incident. Maybe it was your robbers first time doing it and you kicked his ass. He calls the police and they find you. You try explaining how you were the victim. The cop sees your cell phone and wants to know why you did not call first.
· If you used a weapon, tell the officer even if he does not ask for it that you wish to submit if for evidence. If he refuses then at least you can say that you offered.
· Expect to be asked if you have been drinking or have taken drugs whether they are prescription or street. This will have a massive impact on how the officer sees you. Be truthful. The first time you lie about something it is going to make any problem worse.
· If he asks you if you have any weapons DO NOT REACH FOR THEM. He will tell you what he wants you to do.
· Have state issued photo identification. Do not use a check cashing card or Dept of Corrections ID card. I have to include it because it happens. Unless you live in a very urban area most adults have a drivers license. This may be a shocker but many people who anticipate police contact do not carry photo identification. All of a sudden you have a nice tactical folder and a Surefire in your pocket but no ID. That seems a tad unusual.
· If he asks you whether or not you have been arrested BE HONEST. He can find this out with your name and date of birth. It is not uncommon for both the victim and bad guy to end up being wanted. That is why we ask.
· Do not answer your cell phone while talking to the police. #1 it is rude and #2 it is an officer safety issue when people start showing up at the scene. It happens.
· Do not interrupt the officer. Do not try to yell over the top of him. If the other side of the altercation is yelling at the officer stay quite. He will want to give them all of his attention and that is better for you.
· DO NOT TOUCH THE POLICE all too often people want to touch the officer to show them what happened. We don’t like to be touched.
· The officer does not care if you have a friend on the police force. And no he does not know whomever it is that you want to ask him if he knows. All cops do not know each other.
· If you have friends present make sure they keep their mouths shut. He will get to them and ask them what happened.
· If you know whom he works for and his rank, address him that way. Call a deputy a deputy and a trooper a trooper. If you don’t know stick with SIR. We notice that.
· If you are in a car turn the music OFF.
· Most police are not weapons people. Don’t try to chat about the gun, flashlight or knife he is carrying. We call those people squirrels.
· Under stress we all revert back to acting like kids and getting our story in first. You can see this when a cop pulls up to a fender bender and both people run up to him talking a mile minute. Be the one to hang back and answer only the questions he asks you.
· If you are involved in a serious situation such as deadly force, give the officer your name, DOB etc and a brief idea of what happened. Chances are that due to the adrenaline dump you will fell sick to your stomach and have some pain in your chest. You may have shit or pissed you pants. Don’t be afraid to tell the officer that you want an ambulance. That will get you away from the scene to a safe place where you can process what happened and contact an attorney. The officer will come to the hospital when he clears the scene.
· If at the scene you decide to just tell the officer “I am not saying anything until I see my lawyer” chances are that in the initial report you will be the complaintant and not the victim. And trust me you want to be the victim. You can’t have complaintant without complain. A lot of what happens with the case depends on the officer’s initial report. It will be reviewed by the detectives and states attorney. The more he likes you the better.
· Be sure to get the officer name, card or at least the Common Complaint / Incident Report number assigned to the case so that you can be educated when contacting the agency in reference to your case.
· Thank the officer. That one is really up to you. If he was good to you then do it. If you take some of this advice chances are he will be.

Understand that I don’t think the police are any better than anyone else as far as how they should treat people. Personally many of my closest friends are not cops. The way the world is and the way we think it should be are two different things. Understanding how the police view you has a lot to do with your survival after you survive the street.
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Thanks for the primer MercDude!!!:thumbup:
I think I do most of that by using my common sense
http://www.careerpoliceofficer.com/PoliceandPolice/police_rank_insignias.html
What is the usual rank of a traffic cop??

I can say that here in SB
The cops do a great job
No complaints from me
They may not be experts in search and seizure
But, I realize they try their best ;)

ROFL on the squirrels
Good info:thumbup:
What if a COP likes talking about MY guns?
What is that guy called??
 
the one time i was frisked (idiot friends doing idiot things, dont get me started) before the officer started i told him exactly what i had where it was and what i used it for, luckily i ended up with a cop who casually carried himself so my skeletool, griptillian, and Vic Tinker didnt even cause a Blip on his radar, on the other hand one of my idiot friends was carrying a CCC (crappy chinese cheapo) Butterfly knife and that friend is now serving one year in juvie for maliscious concealment and possesion of an edged weapon

just act calm and be truthfull, it always helps
 
I'm a nurse, voted one of the most trusted professions out there. You still hear stories in the media about nurses doing unethical, illegal things. Media loves these stories because they are more horrifying, same as they love the bad cop stories, they keep the viewers watching.

My bad experience with police was my own fault. I was profiled and pulled over in a city for "improper lane change" around the time of one of those militia scares in TX. I was 22, had several firearms, unloaded in the back of my truck, that I left in there cause I was doing a lot of shooting with friends. I also just came from a Renaissance fair and had bought two swords which were in the back of the truck. What I was charged for was an illegal knife (double edge, 5 inches long, one side serrated, to cut myself out of the seatbelt in case of wreck if needed) that I had placed there 3 months previously and had forgotten. When asked If I had any weapons on me I said nosir but I do haveapocketknifeinmyleftpocket. "Are there any guns weapons in the truck?" Then I had to list all my firearms and knives and swords. Yeah, I hope you can appreciate the fact that i was able to do so without stuttering. I certainly appreciated the professionalism of the initial officer. He didn't laugh or rub his hands greedily or anything, just kept a straight face. I was blatantly honest and forthcoming, gave permission to search my vehicle. I was already cuffed and in the back of the patrol car when they found the "concealed illegal knife" between the car seats. I was ecstatic, I had been looking for that thing forever. Then I realized where it was and that I had not mentioned it. So of course it looked like I was lying.
I was arrested. I had done nothing "wrong" in that there was no wrong intent or misdeed occurring, other than stupidity on my part. The officer I think knew I was just a dummy who forgot. There was a 12 inch dagger in the truck as well (I went to the fair initially hoping to find a sheath maker) but I was not charged for it or any of the firearms, just the knife I forgot to mention. I should have been charged for being stupid but they still haven't come out with that ticket yet, and of course (everyone say it together now) ignorance of the law shall not be an excuse.
I was found not guilty in court, got my stuff back, but it set me back around 1500.00. I think the officer did right by me to best of his ability. Having such hardware in my truck was irresponsible of me and potentially dangerous to other citizens. It was more than I could responsibly keep track of (obvious due to the lost knife in my truck). To his credit, the officer only charged me with that one piece of misplaced hardware. To my credit, I had read TX state law and knew that several of the blades I had were illegal to carry so I stored them properly and legally, though I do not ride around with that much sharp pointy stuff in my truck. I swear I was downright sheepish when listing all those things. it sounded bad to me too. "... (deep breath) Well, there's a .357 snub nose, unloaded, a .357 lever action rifle, unloaded, a .223 semi auto rifle, unloaded, a .22 handgun, unloaded, a 12 inch dagger, 7 inch dagger, 2 swords and a tomahawk, all in the back of the truckbed", which had a camper cover over it and was locked.

That being said, it does irk me that I can't carry an item, say a 4- 5 inch blade, and say "why yes officer if I feared for my life or those in my family I would most certainly use this to defend myself if there were no police right there to do so for me" without that being incriminating. On the other hand, I do see the point behind the whole "intent to use in self defense" portion of the law. I believe it was put there due to the thought that some people go into potentially dangerous situations KNOWINGLY and arm themselves accordingly when they could just avoid the situation altogether. The problem is there is no telling when you walk out the door to go to work at the local deli if that gun or knife just might save your life.

I absolutely believe in the right to bear arms but also know people who I'm very glad are not walking around with guns. I also must admit to losing a great deal of naivete about right and wrong and the law. What may seem right isn't always lawful but most always what seems wrong is unlawful.
 
thermocline said:
Hi Powernoodle,

It's not that we don't want to assert our rights. It's simply that a lot of us can't afford to. Yes, it's horrendous.

I'm going to use a little hyperbole to make a point. Suppose you had went into engineering rather than law. Suppose some police officer finds you, Mr. Engineer, carrying a legal knife. He defines it as an illegal knife and puts charges against you.

OK, now you need bail money. Your boss discovers you've been arrested on a weapons violation. Sorry, we love your work, but HR says we can't take the chance, and in light of the weapons violation, they want to review your security clearance. Now you need bail money and a new job. Oops, you have pending charges against you for pulling a knife on a cop? Gee, thanks for coming in.

Your wife is less than thrilled about you "irresponsibly" getting arrested over a pocketknife. You have no employment prospects. Now you show up in court. Well, gee, Mr. Powernoodle, esq., how much do you charge to throw on a suit and step into a courtroom? The cop gets on the stand and says "That divorced, unemployed bum was waving a knife around..."

Let's put a happy ending on this fairy tale. Let's say the judge pulls out his own Case Peanut from under his robes and tells the officer to go pound sand. Hooray, we won, and all it cost was $10,000 and a career.

BTW, the cop that arrested you is outside writing you a parking ticket, even though you're within the lines.

Can you see why some of us might choose to carry nothing more threatening than a Spyderco Ladybug? This is why I carry a Dragonfly and not a Military.
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good god did you say it all

freakin police are out of control
I don't care how well they mean.
 
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Confederate said:
As for the pistol itself, I have a Jennings and they're fine.

Jennings.jpg


The Jenning is hardly threatening.
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Yeah I had one of those.

Thing liked to go off by itself (slam fire) when cycled with the safety on.
only 2 accidental discharges I've ever had were with this gun.
Other than that (and keyholing bullets @6ft) it was fine.
 
I've been sitting back, just reading most of these posts and I must say that I agree with the most of what I've read.

I've had several situations where I've been approached by police; once I fit the description of a perp, and the second time it was a minor traffic infraction.

Both times, I was very polite, and when asked if I had anything that would stick or poke him, I stated up front that I had 2 knives, as well as their location on my person.

I did not attempt to reach for them, I let the officer get them instead.
In both scenarios I was returned my knives and was not charged.

I think that a lot of people forget that cops are humans.Humans that work a job that most of us would not want, and often times are put in situations that cause them to make quick decisions using the information that they are given. Everything from our posture, facial expression, clothing, plays a big part in how a cop approaches us. (i.e. loudmouth, combat boots,ftw t-shirt).

If we take the time to understand that these are real people, who have real families that they want to go home to just like everyone else we would not be so quick to judge.

In my city, a young man was shot by a cop while reaching for a cell phone.Everyone was pissed at the cop, but no one put themself in his shoes.
Dark street, traffic stop,two large passengers, and one of them quickly reaches for something.
Perception is everything.Most officers must use their 5 senses to make a fast judgement as to whether their lives are in danger.
So it might be more convincing to a cop to be polite, honest, not give them any reason to assume that you're anything but a law abiding citizen.
 
I just watched cutlerylover's newest video on YouTube, the one about his new summer EDC pistol and it kinda got me thinking... hypothetically... about this thread.

The general consensus (and rightly so) appears to be that you should never acknowledge a knife on your person as a weapon, even for the purposes of self defense. Obviously this is a bit easier for the officer to buy into when the knife in question is a SAK or Buck 110... maybe not with, say, a half serrated SOG Trident in digi-camo. :p

Perception of intent may be just as important a consideration when buying a new knife as state laws. With that in mind, what do you say to an officer about that knife in your pocket when the pistol on your side has already said, "I care about self defense!" This assumes that your knife is legal, of course... but again, hypothetically for those unfortunate enough to live in states with vague laws where a legal knife might be called into question. *cough*Texas*cough*
 
gratewhitehuntr said:
good god did you say it all

freakin police are out of control
I don't care how well they mean.
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The criminals are out of control as well, and all the police want to do is cry for more laws to disarm the innocent. I got sick to my stomach when I picked up yesterday's Lowell Sun newspaper (Lowell, MA). There on the front page was a collection of small knives that the Lowell Police Department want banned in the city as illegal weapons. Right now, they are perfectly legal under Massachusetts law because they are not daggers, stilettos, auto-opening, etc. The police conficated these knives from reputed gang members and other undesirables. If this local ordinance passes, many of us will be turned into criminals overnight. Such ordinances already exist in Boston, Revere, Lawrence, Salem, Cambridge and Worcester, just to name a few. Now, Lowell wants to join in. Violation would be an arrestable offense (permanent CORI criminal record, regardless of the outcome of the case) and if found guilty, a $300 fine. Maybe the sheeple will find some good sense in such a law, but I certainly don't!:mad:
 
TOM1960 said:
Now, Lowell wants to join in. Violation would be an arrestable offense (permanent CORI criminal record, regardless of the outcome of the case) and if found guilty, a $300 fine.
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Yeah, you're going to have to explain that one. When a person is found to be innocent...there is no criminal record.
 
Not really, there is no innocence in Massachusetts. Any involvement with a LEO = you're GUILTY. Take my word for it.
 
joe-bob said:
Yeah, you're going to have to explain that one. When a person is found to be innocent...there is no criminal record.
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Ominous
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CORI
The original intent of the CORI system was to share information among Criminal Justice agencies, but the system has been dramatically expanded and abused over the years, and current access to CORI records is virtually wide-open. A CORI report can keep a Massachusetts citizen from securing employment, housing, loans, insurance, entrance to college, or becoming a guardian or foster parent. Nearly 1.5 million CORI reports are issued each year, and the reports are notoriously flawed and difficult to interpret. CORIs display all court arraignments--regardless of the eventual outcome of the case--and in effect, turn all criminal histories into "life sentences".
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