What to use for quenching oil????

Brian, you know it's all compromise. Metallurgy textbooks recommend specific temperatures and 10-15 minutes of specific temperature soak times for dissolving O1's carbides into solution, yet you use an OA torch which is questionable if you're achieving the proper time and temp required to optimize O1. I'm not criticizing you, just pointing out that we're not all doing things by the book all the time. When I can upgrade to a proper temp controlled HT environment, I'll also experiement with different quench media. For right now, the customer feedback I get, as well as my own use and testing of my knives, suggests that I'm doing something right. Am I doing it perfectly? Nope, that's what the future is for! ;)
 
why not scam some fry oil from the local hardees???? FREE!!!!! So when you quench smells like the fries are done!!!!!!! Veg oil here....

Daniel
 
soak time and quench media aint the same subject matter. Agree to disagree...
Now go make a knife :)
ps - RC tester should help me develope my HT skills faster. Pick it up Monday and I am stoked!!
 
You don't need a controlled heating source to benefit from different quenchants.
When I first started heat treating I used nothing but ATF, I read a post one day about different quenchants creating different results so I contacted my local oil distributor and asked him what he had available for the ways and steels I was using it for. He suggested a certain quench oil and even delivered 5 gal. to my door. I started comparing the 2 quenchants on blades forged and heat treated as idenical as I could. Immediately I found that the quench oil was producing blades that didn't need a 450 to 475 temper tempertures to get them to where I wanted them after tempering. The quench oil was producing blades that cut as well as any I had produced and producing tougher stronger blades. Bend test after bend test proved it. This was all done using a forge for heat treating, no perfectly controlled oven or salt pot, so your quenchant can make a big difference no matter what your heat source. The oil I received from the diistributor was magnum quench oil, I resently compared it to tex A with many test blades, and they both produced blades that tested the same for me.
I know we all do things differently and there is nothing set in stone, but a good quenchant does make a difference in my shop anyway, and thats whats important to me.

Bill
 
blgoode said:
soak time and quench media aint the same subject matter. Agree to disagree...
Now go make a knife :)
ps - RC tester should help me develope my HT skills faster. Pick it up Monday and I am stoked!!
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Good oils and and a hardness tester, sounds like you are preparing to get serious! I applaud your efforts, but beware once you cross that line you can never go back. I am not one of these kids that are always quoting the movie "The Matrix", but what you are approaching is just like the scene in the movie when the main character is offered two pills, one will let him see true harsh reality and the other will allow him to continue enjoying the rosey colored fantasy world he has been fed his whole life... it is one heck of a choice and it is irreversible :( .

I will admit there are times I wished I had stuck to files for checking hardness, bending blades in a vice, and had never looked at steel under a microscope :( . I was so much happier then, and my knives were all perfect (well, they were never perfect), now there is the potential for problems or improvement around every corner, and the questions are never ending. I have also lost a lot of potential friends when asked to give input on a method. I am willing to say that I am making the best performing blades I have ever made because of it all, but Adam and Eve payed a heavy price for a bit of that apple ;)

On the other topic, every part of the heat treating operation is very important and each one can be improved over time. If I had to choose between the perfect quench and the perfect heat, I would probably choose the perfect heat; proper austenitizing is the key to the success of all the other operations. But if you achieve perfect austenitizing, and then don't quite make it in the quench, you still waste a portion of that carefully made austenite making fine pearlite. I am not sure how most folks verify the quench is working fine, but I have found fine pearlite in steel that would pass most of the "tests" many bladesmiths use.
 
C L Wilkins said:
OK, for the newer folks out there (and myself), let's start a list.

What do you use for -

1095
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I've been reading a lot about this, since I am starting out with 1095. I have read of a few people that do it with different types of oil, but I have read of FAR more people quenching with brine (salt and water). And a lot of the people saying "quench with brine" have been in response to people having problems quenching 1095 in oil. I don't know what ratio of salt to water should be used, but some site I read suggested 13oz salt to 1gal water.

I'll be trying it with brine when it is time to HT and quench... I'll let you know how it goes. :) (Might be a while, though...)
 
After I built my salt bath, I could do brine with fair success... but it's BRUTAL.

If you want to go that route, I'd try plain 'ol warm tap water first. The salt in brine makes the boiling point go up, which in theory should help prevent the vapor jacket from forming so readily around the blade.

Maybe it was just the way I was holding my mouth, but brine was always more volatile to quench in than just water (for me).

Oh, the old "figure" is to add enough salt to your water to the point that it will float an egg. Seems to work... You could just use Salt Lake :)

-Nick-
 
Ah, that reminds me, the other thing that was mentioned a lot was swirling the blade around in a figure 8 to avoid pockets of air. It was also often recommended to have the brine at room temperature or luke warm (as opposed to heated).

A lot of the discussion about the brine was that it cools off the blade faster than oil, and that 1095 needs to be cooled down extremely fast.

As I said, I haven't tried this yet, just done a lot of reading in preparation for my first attempts. :) So hopefully people read this in that light.

Here are a few good links concerning 1095:

http://www.knifenetwork.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3285
http://www.celticknot.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=9
http://www.evenheat-kiln.com/techni...-1, AISI 0-6 Tool Steel Heat Treat Procedure: (recommends oil)
http://www.dfoggknives.com/waterhardening.htm (not just 1095)

Hope this helps.
 
Sorry to come upon this thread late, but I have a source for Heatbath's AAA and #50 Quenching Oils that other people may not have heard about. Heatbath has three plants, one of which is listed as being in Springfield, Mass (actually it's in Indian Orchard, MA). After talking with Kevin Cashen at Ashokan a few years ago, I called Heatbath in Indian Orchard. The woman I spoke with was very helpful and was perfectly willing to sell me 10 gallons of AAA and 10 gallons on #50. She did not mention there being a minimum order. They shipped the oil right out via UPS. The oil arrived in four (42 lb) metal containers (inside cardboard boxes). I don't recall the total price, but it was less than $100 dollars, and the shipping was more than the oil.
I do not recall the name of the woman who helped me, but the phone number was (413) 543-3381. Their address is:
Heatbath Corp
107 Front Street
Indian Orchard, MA 01151.
Their current link is http://www.heatbath.com/contact.htm. The site lists a phone number of (413) 452-2000. The number I had may be a direct line for the sales dept, or it may be obsolete by now.
I have had very good luck with Heatbath's quenching oil and, after Kevin's lecture I realized that there is no sense putting your time and effort into a blade only to risk screwing it up by using some inferior oil. The experts make specific oils for specific steels for a good reason.
-Chris Meyer, Shenipsit Forge
 
brash said:
... people having problems quenching 1095 in oil.

Unless you already have a bunch of 1095, I would suggest using 1084. If you look at the Isothermal Transformation diagrams in the Heat Treater's Guide you will find that, depending on the carbon content, the nose of the curve for 1095 is off of the page. Which means that it is impossible to quench your steel fast enough to convert all of the Austenite to Martensite. (The guide also says to quench pieces less than 3/16" thick in oil.)

If you use 1084 you will at least have a chance of quenching fast enough to convert all of the Austenite. My copy of the Heat Treater's Guide does not show an IT diagram for 1084, but it does show 1080. With the 1080 you have about one second to get beneath the nose of the curve. (The book recomends quenching pieces less than 1/4" thick in oil.) Once below the curve, you have plenty of time to get to 400 degrees F. At that point, I try to accomplish an interupted quench by removing my blades from the oil.

In any case, the 1084 should give you similar performance to 1095, with much more manageable quenching times.

If you have the chance, I would suggest that you talk to Kevin Cashen, Tim Zowada, or Dan Margani about these subjects, as they are the experts that I have relied on. Come to Ashokan if you can. http://www.dikonsword.com/sword2005/index.html

-Chris Meyer, Shenipsit Forge
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There are some good relies here with pleanty of technical advice check them all out and follow as close as possible they are the professionals that will raise the standards.

However,

I am when all said and done a back yard hack. I make a few good knives a year. I normally do the best I can as cheap as I can. For a back yard hack that wants to make a useable knife. A hobby maker I would buy the square tin of olive oil from the supermarket for a couple of dollars. The tin had a plastic hole in the top which pulls out and lets a blade fit in. Good long deep tin.

I don't claim to have the best knives and I let my customers know that. For the professional makers that is foolish talk. Yes you should make the best possible blade. If you want to have a bit of fun any oil. If you intend to get serious $50 worth of oil or even $200 may well last a very long time so it averages out very little per blade.

WHen I have a special blade for a special customer I use whale oil. My tin of whale oil is at least 30 years old and used by my old mate Lloyd Harding while he was alive.

Just my opinion best you can when you can the rest of the time what you can
afford. I make my main knife income selling letter openers made from wire I don't heat treat at all. (I am waiting for the lightning bolt to get me and feel free to say harsh things to me) I am not saying drop the standards of knives just I can't afford all the techno toys for a nominal improvement.

Now I am going to duck.
 
Reg ELLERY said:
...Just my opinion best you can when you can the rest of the time what you can
afford. I make my main knife income selling letter openers made from wire I don't heat treat at all. (I am waiting for the lightning bolt to get me and feel free to say harsh things to me) I am not saying drop the standards of knives just I can't afford all the techno toys for a nominal improvement.

Now I am going to duck.
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Well said, and for the hobbiest I often recommend hydraulic fluid or ATF, for the reason of availibity. But (you knew there would be a "but" here ;) ), I often suggest folks who fear the cost, to go out and price 5 gallons of any of the alternatives and compare it to 5 gallons of quench oil. If you have a source for quench oils, it will almost always come out to be the most efficient and least expensive choice. Where the quench oil thing bites you is in the shipping.

I have been labeled a quench snob more than once when dealing with this topic, but those folks have never seen me running to the local automotive store to get a few quarts of ATF when the place I was doing a demonstration didn't have any quench mediums at all. Preferences and opinions I respect. How can I tell a person what it is that they prefer, like or dislike? It is denial of facts and misinformation that I cannot abide, and the reason I am such a stickler on this subject is because of the huge number of smiths who have no problem stating that there is absolutely no difference between a carfeully engineered quenching oil and any other liquid one can get thier hands upon. This does not include you Mr. Ellery, you stated you reasoning quite well and soundly, along with the logical concessions.

But the smiths that make the other illogical statement always use the same line "my XXXX has proven itself to work just fine"... HOW? What is the final as quenched rockwell? What are the subsequent HRC values after tempering, and for what temperature? Have they actually examined the microstructure to so confidently make the statement? I have found loads of fine pearlite in sample after sample that would have skated a file and made a serviceable knife by the common standards. So we come down to "well it can make a knife that is serviceable to me, and that is good enough", but this stance does not jive with the position that there is no difference at all between quench oil and Crisco. Clearly there is, but we just rearange our standards to accomodate one or the other.

I am sorry Reg, you had a perfectly valid and resonable point, I just wanted to point out the cost factors, and ended up spinning off on a tangent about other prevalent attitides, but they are attitudes that I struggle to comprehend so I become frustrated. No reason to duck, I will stop now ;) .
 
I propose a contest.

Two or x number of blades shall be made with one piece of stock.

Science vs Voodoo.

who's in ?

The blades can be tested by a neutral party.
 
The serious flaws to overcome in such a comparison, would be the parameters and standardizing the definitions. Right off the top- what constitutes voodoo? What constitutes science? Who wants to come forward and proclaim themself a voodoo bladesmith? If somebody else just uses the techniques of the "voodoo" guys, I can guarentee the witchdoctors will say the treatments were not done right. What is a reasonable test? A vast number of smiths think that attacking rope and bending in vice are the defining actions of a quality blade, but a reasonable person could ask what the heck that has to do with using a knife at all? I have yet to use a knife in a way that requires bendability :confused: This leads to the "neutral" party, what is a good knife to them? Some folks say a knife is junk if they cannot easily sharpen it with two strokes on the stone, while many others would be very dissappointed in how often they need to stone that same knife. Some say the human hand needs to do the testing because the knife is a hand held tool, others say the human had removes all objectivity and makes the whole thing entirely subjective. It wouldn't be the first time such a contest was attempted but, with all the variable it can only be for entertainment purposes.

The accurate way to handle this is to approach one variable at a time with tightly controlled testing that can produce hard cold numbers. I have been slugging away at this, but I have to say that it is very monotonous, hard work, and does require tools that can eliminate errors and false readings. Because of the time constraints I find I have to pick and choose the tests that will produce the most valueable data. Do I need to do a test to prove we cannot pack iron atoms with a hammer? No that would be a collossal waste of time since that is an undeniable law by which our universe runs. Instead I use my time on tests that will aswer questions that are in the gray areas, e.g. how does damascus patterning effect impact strength? How does it effect edge holding?

It is a common ploy of the "voodoo" guys to insist that you prove them wrong, if you fall for this you end up jumping through hoops at their command, and lending credence to their position. The burden of proof rests with the person making the unorthodox claims. While I am wasting my time and income on trying to disprove Joe Bladesmiths "toad pee by the light of the blue moon quench", he can be out there saying that he has Kevin Cashen examining and extensively testing his stuff as he speaks, and I become one more PR tool for Joe. It is a win/win for him, while I lose valueable time and reputation.
 
Kevin R. Cashen

Thanks for your comment I thought I may get a go back to Australia or go stick you head up a dingo's bum.

I like to answer some of the new guys with what will work to a degree and is cheap and readily available. I know there are a lot of guys who start out, me one of them that from time to time have a hard time raising $10 or $20 to play with knives. Not saying I am poor or others are it is just family priorities take first slice of the pie.

I do like the science involved and some of you blokes know it, I don't know nearly as much as I would like. I also hear a lot of bulldust. Hold your tonge out the right side of your mouth and stand on one leg and that will be the best. Science is not like that. Contolled condition and repeated observations.

Until I was shown how to heat treat, and now if I have a nice bit of 440c I will send it to the Hills heat treaters in Victoria for the vacum treatment 58 rockwell every time, no fire scale. Costs about $8 per blade those ones I sell for $350, not the $20 for a wire letter opener.

Just on the opposite end annealing I ran around a small country town until I found a guy building a wall with a bag of lime to anneal in for a demo. Lime is evil stuff but it works to a degree.

What else works and what is best?. I gennerally anneal in my forge letting it cool down slowly.
 
Hi all, i'm brand new at knife making i'm trying to ease into blacksmithing first.(Its probably less frustrating that way) well any way i found this recipie for a homade quench made from household ingredients. i used it to make a chisel from mild steel and could easily cut into the stock i made the chisel from.the way i heard it works is that the dawn and shaklee ( I substitued jet dry) make the water wetter? breaking the surface tension of the water.I still know J.S. about knifemaking but if my wife keeps letting me play with the fire i'll get some where. :foot:



5 pounds salt, 32oz blue Dawn dishwashing liquid, 8oz Shaklee Basic

I wetting agent, add water to make 5 gallons of solution.

Stir it up to get it moving before you quench. Don't quench anything

with more than 45- 50 points of carbon.
 
Kevin R. Cashen said:
Who wants to come forward and proclaim themself a voodoo bladesmith?
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Kevin,

I would be happy to proclaim myself a "Voodoo bladesmith" if you would only send me a bunch of your knives, and perhaps a couple of your multi-bar damascus swords, for "testing". Of course, I would then play the part of a knife writer and keep all of your blades. I'm sure I could give you excellent reviews however. :D

-Chris Meyer
 
Chris Meyer said:
Kevin,

I would be happy to proclaim myself a "Voodoo bladesmith" if you would only send me a bunch of your knives, and perhaps a couple of your multi-bar damascus swords, for "testing". Of course, I would then play the part of a knife writer and keep all of your blades. I'm sure I could give you excellent reviews however. :D

-Chris Meyer
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Or you could get a miniature effigy of me and stick pins it it until you get what you want ;)
 
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