What Type of Stainless Liners

karnaknives said:
I clearly have a different experience with companies and materials they use than you do.

We did electron beam welding. A lot of companies do electron beam welding.
Do you think that if we figured out how to join metals together to achieve a more desirable result that we should "happily" share that information?
We specialized in dis-similar metal joining. None of the materials used are "secret". All of the processes are proprietary.
Do you think if you called and asked that anyone would or should explain the specifics to you?

In any case, HAPPY THANKSGIVING.
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Thank you for sharing your experience. Although it's interesting, I don't think the example you gave is close to this situation. The process by which something is made is different from the materials used. And many knife manufacturers including Benchmade share what materials they use.

Centermass said:
Having had numerous Benchmades over the years, and using them plenty for tasks reasonably expected of folding knives (and a few that weren’t), I’ve never had a liner fail, not do exactly what it is supposed to, or just randomly explode. But I guess your not-at-all suspicious demand for their product information will never lead you to these same groundbreaking, scientific results I learned by using them if you don’t ever find out exactly which 400 series steel they use.
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I think liner material does make a difference especially with corrosion resistance. But if you think, "there would probably be little difference if they used one 400 series steel over another," do you at the same time think it matters much to a counterfeiter? I did not demand anything.
 
kniveslikethese said:
Thank you for sharing your experience. Although it's interesting, I don't think the example you gave is close to this situation. The process by which something is made is different from the materials used. And many knife manufacturers including Benchmade share what materials they use.
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Not close? Ok that’s your opinion and with that I’ll exit this conversation.
You clearly have more free time than I do if you make a habit of contacting multiple knife manufacturers for this information.
I hope the remainder of your search proves fruitful.
Take care.
 
kniveslikethese said:
I think liner material does make a difference especially with corrosion resistance. But if you think, "there would probably be little difference if they used one 400 series steel over another," do you at the same time think it matters much to a counterfeiter? I did not demand anything.
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Oh! Corrosion testing! Why didn’t you say so? In that case… they still don’t need to tell you.

No, I don’t think the difference in actual material matters to counterfeiters from a real performance standpoint, but it does to them from the standpoint of matching materials more effectively to better deceive buyers into purchasing bogus copies. Copies which they are trying to make as close to the real thing as possible to achieve that goal. THAT certainly does matter to Benchmade, and should to those buying what they believe to be actual Benchmade products. From a business perspective, that IS worth protecting, and was exactly my point.

I’ll spell it out. Benchmade is not obligated to just give away all their manufacturing information to YOU because YOU think they should. Your request could be perfectly harmless for your own curious personal “testing and comparison” purposes. You could also be a counterfeiter, or maybe just someone who’s going to denegrate them because your “testing and comparison” deems their product substandard to someone else’s. The last two probably aren’t worth the gamble for them just to make you happy.

By protecting their information, perhaps the differences between real products and fakes can remain identifiable. As the counterfeiters get better, this effort becomes more and more difficult. Benchmade does not want people to buy counterfeit products because A) that affects the sales of their actual product, and B) they don’t want to waste time, money, and effort servicing counterfeit knives, or receiving them in and answering to folks who bought a fake and want Benchmade to fix a problem with it because they “think” it’s real. If they told everyone how to make one exactly like theirs, they run greater risk of these issues.
 
kniveslikethese said:
I am interested in comparing knives, and what they are made of affects how they function. And yes, I would be surprised if it was important to Benchmade to try to keep this a secret. I think replicating the design is much more important for making fakes than replicating the material.
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I see. You are just “interested in comparing knives, and what they are made of affects how they function.” How could I possibly have interpreted “testing and comparison” from that?

Anyway, I understand my frustration with this has become irritating and isn’t helping you, so I’ll step out of this thread. Best of luck on your inquiry.
 
I would be happy to try some counterfeit liners as I have experienced catastrophic failures with “400 series” Benchmade liners utilizing Carbon fiber scales in 940 series knives. The only thing notable about 400 series stainlesses is their cheap prices.
 
tiguy7 said:
I would be happy to try some counterfeit liners as I have experienced catastrophic failures with “400 series” Benchmade liners utilizing Carbon fiber scales in 940 series knives. The only thing notable about 400 series stainlesses is their cheap prices.
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That is really interesting to me. Would you mind sharing how it happened, where they failed, and if Benchmade resolved it?
 
kniveslikethese said:
That is really interesting to me. Would you mind sharing how it happened, where they failed, and if Benchmade resolved it?
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Interesting story. I went on a bicycle camping trip (1000 mi.) in Wisconsin in early August. Temperatures well into the 90’s. The 940 was a closed back Carbon fiber handle with a D-2 reverse tanto blade. I luckily switched the blade out for an S-30-V with a clip point. I carried the knife in the placket of a polo shirt. The environment was hot and sweaty.
When I got home and disassembled the knife, the lock plates were covered in solid red rust on both sides and were hard to remove because of the rust build up. I had to wire brush, sand, and oil the plates. I had to wire brush the C/F scales. The Omega springs were the worst. They are hard to hold while brushing them. I am unimpressed with the corrosion resistance of the plates and the springs.
 
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tiguy7 said:
Interesting story. I went on a bicycle camping trip (1000 mi.) in Wisconsin in early August. Temperatures well into the 90’s. The 940 was a closed back Carbon fiber handle with a D-2 reverse tango blade. I luckily switched the blade out for an S-30-V with a clip point. I carried the knife in the placket of a polo shirt. The environment was hot and sweaty.
When I got home and disassembled the knife, the lock plates were covered in solid red rust on both sides and were hard to remove because of the rust build up. I had to wire brush, sand, and oil the plates. I had to wire brush the C/F scales. The Omega springs were the worst. They are hard to hold while brushing them. I am unimpressed with the corrosion resistance of the plates and the springs.
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That sounds like a cool trip. Were the liners uncoated on your 940? Do you have any pictures? I've had liners and hardware rust, and I'd like to be able to compare knives for their ability to resist rust.
 
kniveslikethese said:
That sounds like a cool trip. Were the liners uncoated on your 940? Do you have any pictures? I've had liners and hardware rust, and I'd like to be able to compare knives for their ability to resist rust.
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I have made many such trips. The liners were raw 400 series stainless, probably 410 or 420. I took no pictures, but I wish I would have. The condition of those parts might have caused Benchmade to upgrade their materials for both liners and springs.
 
tiguy7 said:
I have made many such trips. The liners were raw 400 series stainless, probably 410 or 420. I took no pictures, but I wish I would have. The condition of those parts might have caused Benchmade to upgrade their materials for both liners and springs.
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Cycling is a great way to stay in shape, and I bet you get to take in a lot bike camping that you would miss driving. After your experience with the 940 did you switch what knife you bring cycling? I wonder if many of the omega spring failures are due to corroded springs. Maybe knife manufacturers don't list what liners are made of because they want to continue using inexpensive materials.
 
tiguy7 said:
I have made many such trips. The liners were raw 400 series stainless, probably 410 or 420. I took no pictures, but I wish I would have. The condition of those parts might have caused Benchmade to upgrade their materials for both liners and springs.
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Why? I'm guessing 99.9% of owners have never experienced that issue.

I've processed all kinds of animals with my knives and haven't cleaned them right away. So they're covered in blood, guts, etc. and I've never had a problem with rust.
 
Not many users carry a knife on their placket nor take long bicycle rides in hot weather. My sweat is more powerful than the chemicals used in accelerated corrosion testing as used to subject automotive painted and plated parts to an environment (steam and salt) simulating 5 years of actual wear and tear in 96 hours. This was more noticeable in the Carbon fiber knives than the Titanium or Aluminum ones.
 
I've carried my Bugouts while swimming (accidentally*), skiing, riding bikes, used it to dig weeds in the garden, and one of them has been through a full wash and dry cycle.
No corrosion.

*fell out of raft on the Rogue River

I have other Benchmade knives but none have seen the same use as my Bugouts. Also, no corrosion.
I recently took apart one of my garage/garden knives, a Spyderco Tenacious, and at first sight it looked awful inside, but it wiped clean with Isopropyl Alcohol and showed no corrosion or lasting damage.
And I don't know for sure, but I would guess Benchmade uses better liner material than is used in the Tenacious.
 
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I carry my DLC coated Bugout when trout fishing and very often (if lucky) clean out my fish at riverside with it. 2 years of doing this and I see no corrosion when I take it apart.
 
kniveslikethese said:
Cycling is a great way to stay in shape, and I bet you get to take in a lot bike camping that you would miss driving. After your experience with the 940 did you switch what knife you bring cycling? I wonder if many of the omega spring failures are due to corroded springs. Maybe knife manufacturers don't list what liners are made of because they want to continue using inexpensive materials.
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Over the years, I have used many different knives under similar circumstances. One interesting discovery was the corrosion on a William Henry B-15 Titan. The blade is San Mai construction. The center is ZDP-189 powder steel. The cladding on either side of the core was something like 410 stainless which is supposed to be extra corrosion resistant. The “bread” in the sandwich corroded more than the “bologna”.
By the way, those rusted Omega springs that I cleaned up are still working fine.
 
It's good to know that your Bugouts have not corroded despite being in corrosive environments. I did look at some old product catalogs, and Benchmade included the liner material for some knives. I saw both 410 and 420j listed. I didn't do an exhaustive search for liner materials because I'm mainly interested in the liner materials used in newer knives.

tiguy7 said:
Over the years, I have used many different knives under similar circumstances. One interesting discovery was the corrosion on a William Henry B-15 Titan. The blade is San Mai construction. The center is ZDP-189 powder steel. The cladding on either side of the core was something like 410 stainless which is supposed to be extra corrosion resistant. The “bread” in the sandwich corroded more than the “bologna”.
By the way, those rusted Omega springs that I cleaned up are still working fine.
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In 2009 at least the 940 had 410 stainless liners. It would make sense if you experienced corrosion of this same steel in different knives.
 
After thinking about this, my opinion is that it is most likely that the reason Benchmade does not want to share what steel liners are made from is that it is generally unimpressive. Knife buyers get excited about steels like S30V, S90V, and M4, and those steels give the entire knife the air of being made of advanced high performance materials. When a steel like M390 is at the forefront of the buyers mental spec sheet the knife feels high end. Steels like 410 and 420j feel low end even if as in the case of 420j, they may be good for their purpose. So I think this is about marketing.
 
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