What would make you want to be part of the KITH?

Dominick Maone said:
Someone who sells knives for a living won’t get much in return, even if they get a really nice knife. They can’t sell the knife they receive, so although they may be getting a knife worth $500, they really lose $500 by making a knife and sending it to someone instead of selling it.
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One if the problems with the KITH is that people have a hard time telling where their own skill level is. When using carbon steel forge heat treatment is an option and when we combine that with people not understanding what their own skill level is some of the knives can be on the rough side. I know the first one I did was pretty rough although it was usable. Not all are that. I think the are a fair number of people who have decent skills who at least in the past have wanted to participate but get scared off when there is a chance that what they will get can't even have the handle knocked off and redone to be a working knife. From the post I have read and even in my own kitchen it's common for many makers to not actually have many nice knives for themselves so I think some would like having a nice knife. It would be an excuse to keep it or have a nice gift to give. I was hoping that maybe by switching to premium steels it might be more interesting than just very simple knives out of carbon steel while keeping the knives simple enough that anyone can build them. Perhaps simpler in some ways since there is no need to grind hardened steel so just about anyone could take part. The KITH where JT did the steel was partially an attempt to get away from forge HT and I'm sure someone could donate a few profiles if people were not sure if their design was ok. At that point the worst thing that could happen if you didn't like the knife is that you knock the scales off and put new ones on. Yes that's a pain but it's not the end of the world and you aren't stuck with nothing. I just thought maybe it was a way to get more people into it and bring back a learning component.

I was impressed with this KITH were people took the time to try new grinds. Maybe they will keep getting better on their own.

N Natlek The title of this thread is what would make you want to be a part of a KITH and not "Why I think people shouldn't do it.". Or " What I think is wrong with a thing that I don't take part in." You have a habit of trying to stir things up and there is nothing helpful about what you are saying. Since they continue to let you stay you are welcome to join one if you like and want to pay shipping. If you like we can even give you "helpful" advice about what we freely think about your work but manage to hold back out if good manners.
 
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Storm W said:
One if the problems with the KITH is that people have a hard time telling where their own skill level is. When using carbon steel forge heat treatment is an option and when we combine that with people not understanding what their own skill level is some of the knives can be on the rough side. I know the first one I did was pretty rough although it was usable. Not all are that. I think the are a fair number of people who have decent skills who at least in the past have wanted to participate but get scared off when there is a chance that what they will get can't even have the handle knocked off and redone to be a working knife. From the post I have read and even in my own kitchen it's common for many makers to not actually have many nice knives for themselves so I think some would like having a nice knife. It would be an excuse to keep it or have a nice gift to give. I was hoping that maybe by switching to premium steels it might be more interesting than just very simple knives out of carbon steel while keeping the knives simple enough that anyone can build them. Perhaps simpler in some ways since there is no need to grind hardened steel so just about anyone could take part. The KITH where JT did the steel was partially an attempt to get away from forge HT and I'm sure someone could donate a few profiles if people were not sure if their design was ok. At that point the worst thing that could happen if you didn't like the knife is that you knock the scales off and put new ones on. Yes that's a pain but it's not the end of the world and you aren't stuck with nothing. I just thought maybe it was a way to get more people into it and bring back a learning component.

I was impressed with this KITH were people took the time to try new grinds. Maybe they will keep getting better on their own.

N Natlek The title of this thread is what would make you want to be a part of a KITH and not "Why I think people shouldn't do it.". Or " What I think is wrong with a thing that I don't take part in." You have a habit of trying to store things up and there is nothing helpful about what you are saying. Since they continue to let you stay you are welcome to join one if you like and want to pay shipping. If you like we can even give you "helpful" advice about what we freely think about your work but manage to hold back out if good manners.
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I agree wholeheartedly about new makers not knowing their own skill level. I have given several of my knives away to family in hopes of getting some helpful advice on ways to improve. I like posting my work here and welcome any feedback others have to offer because I know I have plenty of room to improve. Family has a tendency to be polite and not offer negative feedback, even though it is welcomed and needed. So getting your work into the hands of strangers other than paying customers is helpful, so that is where a KITH can be beneficial.
Anyway, I now have a small oven and have decided to upgrade my quench oil to Parks50 plus I’m branching out to higher end steels than before. So I would be up for a small or medium sized hunting knife KITH since we are moving into deer season.
 
I just read a bunch of the comments.

I am not saying that anyone is just doing it for financial gain. I also realize that full time knife makers do this for work and may not need a knife. The purpose is for fun and learning. Most full time people still like knives and getting something from another maker is just fun. The problem is that in the past not all of the knives have been usable or even fixable since the may not have had good heat treatment. I'm in this KITH so I'm not talking about myself. I was just wondering if there was a way we could make it fair so that more experienced makers can feel like they have a shot at getting back something similar to what they out in. I'm not trying to exclude anyone I wanted to include more. I know my knives aren't perfect but I can make a plain full tang flat grind knife and that should be the minimum. I was wondering if we find a way to make sure that no corners were cut would it make it more appealing to others. I think this thread is going in a direction other than what I hoped.

I participate because I think it's fun. Last one I did I got a Z-Wear knife from Willie71 Willie71 I sure am not complaining about that. In the past other good makers have been part of it as well but some have voiced frustration about quality and they were right that it would not have been fair to them. I would like to get eyes on a piece that I have tried to make well or even have the excuse to push myself. I rarely have the chance to see other makers and don't have the budget to buy their work since my knife budget has been spent on what I build and I would like to grow. The KITH seems like it is meant for that.

In the past there has been talk of limiting people and that just won't work. I am a inspector and people put up with me judging their work because they have to and when I do I have to use a ridged code to make it fair. That doesn't make anything fun. It's also impossible to take the risk out of it. I was just wondering that if we made some rules for materials would it make it more appealing to more people. If someone was down to donate a few profiles that could be used if anyone wasn't sure about their stuff they could just use one of those or that could be mandatory even. Most of us have a printer. I thought that maybe with big knives there is at least enough metal that if something needed being touched up there is an option. It's probably a bad idea but it was an idea. If anyone else has good ideas about what might make it more fun for more people drop those in. I don't think we need to go on about why people do it or do not do it. Willie71 Willie71 is one of the few older makers who still does it consistently and it would be nice to make it fun for others if they wanted to do it as well. I'm sure that he doesn't get out what he puts in and it is really nice that he continues to host it for us when he is able.

I don't know what my work schedule will be come fall but would be willing (but possibly not able) to heat treat for a few people if that was what is holding them back.
 
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Sorry, what would convince me to participate?-6-7 month deadline. I probably average 2 knives a month. Having a 3-4 months (I think it is usually less) time limit is too restrictive. I know if I don’t do whatever I want when I go into my garage I won’t be making knives for long.

Another suggestion- maybe each person make a kitchen knife, a hunter, and an edc knife. And all three go to people randomly.
 
Cushing H. said:
Ok, at some risk, I’m going to pull out my past credentials as a group facilitator. I suspect that the kiths have been unrewarding because there is not agreement on just what they are about/what they are for. If you guys will bite, try giving a *short* (5-8 words) statement defining the *purpose* or *objective* of a kith. This should be a pretty abstract statement getting to a true *core* purpose … and might not even include the word “knife”. In my experience, once a group realizes a true objective, how you get there becomes much clearer and more broadly agreed upon… (if you don’t want to go this route, that’s fine…)
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Exchange, creativity, internationality, gratefulness, excitement.

Edit: kindness, learning.
 
I'm interested in becoming a knifemaker, but I'm still in the process of learning everything I can while I sort out my very sub-optimal shop situation. So I don't have a horse in this race - it's at least a year off before I can participate. But taking stakeholders with different viewpoints through a process of figuring out how they can all participate in something is a big part of what I do for a living, so here's a couple of thoughts on this.

I think the following things are correct:
  • The stated goal of of the average KITH participant is to get feedback from more experienced makers
  • More experienced makers are unlikely to get (or be all that interested in) feedback from the average KITH participant
  • More experienced makers are likely to feel shortchanged - they will probably receive a knife that is worth less than they gave
  • Getting feedback from more experienced makers is more valuable to the average KITH participant (and more in line with the stated goals of a KITH) than getting a knife from the more experienced makers - this is supposed to be a skills-development activity, not just a get-a-cool-knife activity
Maybe the solution is to have two tiers: participants and judges. Being a participant is open to anyone who will make and donate a knife. Being a judge is invitational-only, just for more experience makers. The judges feedback is public (and should be useful, but don't embarrass the person). The participants send their knives to the judges. The judges keep the knives - that's their payment for sharing their expertise with everyone.

Maybe that would get more senior knifemakers in,. And maybe that lose some junior makers, since they're not getting a knife for themselves. But if the junior people really want feedback from senior people, it probably has to happen where the senior people don't have to buy their way into the process by trading a high quality knife for a beginner knife.

This really boils down to: what does the average KITH participant value more:
  • Get a knife from another average KITH maker, along with 'great job!' from yet a different average KITH participant?
  • Not get a knife at all, but get real feedback from a truly senior knifemaker?
Either one of these is a reasonable choice, but you probably aren't going to get very many senior makers to join in for the first one of those.

My 2¢. Hope it's helpful.

-Tyson
 
The goal of a KITH?
Make the best knife I possibly can, then give it to someone.

My goal as a complete amateur is to get my knife into someone's hands who can really nitpick the heck out of it and tell me how it's crap. Not just that it's crap, but how.

That's my goal, but what would my goal be if I were somebody who made the world's best knives? Really the only motivation at that point would be to have fun making the knife.

Maybe making something different than I usually do, or different materials, or only integrals or some other kind of challenge, only keyhole integral handles or whatever, ya know?

Anyway, if there's a KITH planned and I have time, i'd like to participate. Alas life just tends to get in the way, and I usually have to bow out at the last minute. Like this last one.

I could have just thrown a handle on the blade I had complete, and just declared I was done. But I want to do my best work and give it to someone. Not just some junk I did too meet a deadline, ya know?

Anyway, I'm rambling now so, that's all for now!
 
Storm W said:
N Natlek The title of this thread is what would make you want to be a part of a KITH and not "Why I think people shouldn't do it.". Or " What I think is wrong with a thing that I don't take part in." You have a habit of trying to stir things up and there is nothing helpful about what you are saying. Since they continue to let you stay you are welcome to join one if you like and want to pay shipping. If you like we can even give you "helpful" advice about what we freely think about your work but manage to hold back out if good manners.
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So, almost all posts in this topic are about why KITH don t work and you chose me.......? I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work. Thomas A. Edison Maybe our post why KITH don t work like you want ,will help you to faster find how to organize one that would work ? Good luck with that .

Now about part of your post which is personal aimed at me not at my opinion about the topic?
Since they continue to let you stay...............? Well , Lucky me ............. you are not owner of this forum or moderator. Seriously Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith why I m still here ?
If you like we can even give you "helpful" advice....? We ?? Who are We ? In which other member name are you speak ? In your name and who else ? You and that Influencer ........???? I like that !!
I don t give ***** about your opinion about mine knives , just to let you know that for future .There is IGNORE button , I advice you to use it if you don t want to read my post .I will use it after I read your answer........WHO are ** we** ? And there is also Report button you should use whenever you think someone is doing something against rule here ..........Report that post and stop playing judge and executioner here !
Every member here are free to comment what they think about mine work whenever they want , honestly of course, don t hold back out of good manners.That is why we show our work here , I hope ?
 
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@ Natlek : wrong "stacy" above ^^

Please correct, my friend. I want to see what he says. :)
 
fitzo said:
@ Natlek : wrong "stacy" above ^^

Please correct, my friend. I want to see what he says. :)
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Me too...........
I have idea for KITH , what do you think on something like this ?
* Knife type .....hunting full tang knife
* Length of knife 10 inch
* Thickness of steel 4mm
* Wide of blade One and half inch
* Full flat grind , 0.10 BTE , and at least 1000 grit finish
* Steel Elmax
* HT of steel ,only by professional like JT or other professional shop
* Handle/scale material......Ironwood or Koa wood Grade/class A
* Only Corby pins
* Sheath .....4mm leather
* Time for finishing knife One month from day you enter KITH
If you can meet these conditions................
 
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Natlek said:
Me too...........
I have idea for KITH , what do you think on something like this ?
* Knife type .....hunting full tang knife
* Length of knife 10 inch
* Thickness of steel 4mm
* Wide of blade One and half inch
* Full flat grind , 0.10 BTE , and at least 1000 grit finish
* Steel Elmax
* HT of steel ,only by professional like JT or other professional shop
* Handle/scale material......Ironwood or Koa wood Grade/class A
* Only Corby pins
* Sheath .....4mm leather
* Time for finishing knife One month from day you enter KITH
If you can meet these conditions................
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I am interested how many hobby makers would order special materials just to meet the criteria. I probably wouldnt.
Also there is a lot of hobby makers with their own HT equipment. Kith is a possibility to test if ones procedures are good or at least good enough to compare with other makers procedures and finala products, even if not selling.
 
While I agree that there should be some sort of standards, let me give my opinion about Natlek's list:

* Knife type .....hunting full tang knife (OK)
* Length of knife 10 inch (OK)
* Thickness of steel 4mm (For a hunting knife? Not from my shop. 2mm or 2.5mm)
* Wide of blade One and half inch (OK)
* Full flat grind , 0.10 BTE , and at least 1000 grit finish (OK)
* Steel Elmax (OK)
* HT of steel ,only by professional like JT or other professional shop (Absolutely not. HT would be done by me or I'm out.)
* Handle/scale material......Ironwood or Koa wood Grade/class A (OK)
* Only Corby pins (Not sure why, but OK)
* Sheath .....4mm leather (No, not set up for leather)
* Time for finishing knife One month from day you enter KITH (Seems reasonable)
 
FredyCro said:
I am interested how many hobby makers would order special materials just to meet the criteria. I probably wouldnt.
Also there is a lot of hobby makers with their own HT equipment. Kith is a possibility to test if ones procedures are good or at least good enough to compare with other makers procedures and finala products, even if not selling.
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Well ,that s why I make that criteria ,so you are out Fredy ...Sorry ;) The opener of this topic don t want in KITH you and probably other 50 % of members who post in Shoptalk .He wants KITH only with established knife makers ,whoever they are ...Personally I have no idea who that would be .
HT by professional would guarantee to * established knife makers* that they would get good blade , excellent wood for handle fixed with Corby ......etc . So maybe they would be attracted to participate in that kind of KITH which guarantees them that they will get the same quality of the knife as theirs together with opener of this thread of course .He is established knife maker to me .
Edit to add ............Fredy , are hobby makers *estabishled knife makers * ?How I shoul know if I m established knifemaker or not ? Who determines who is established or not ? Anybody know that ?
 
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samuraistuart said:
While I agree that there should be some sort of standards, let me give my opinion about Natlek's list:

* Knife type .....hunting full tang knife (OK)
* Length of knife 10 inch (OK)
* Thickness of steel 4mm (For a hunting knife? Not from my shop. 2mm or 2.5mm)
* Wide of blade One and half inch (OK)
* Full flat grind , 0.10 BTE , and at least 1000 grit finish (OK)
* Steel Elmax (OK)
* HT of steel ,only by professional like JT or other professional shop (Absolutely not. HT would be done by me or I'm out.)
* Handle/scale material......Ironwood or Koa wood Grade/class A (OK)
* Only Corby pins (Not sure why, but OK)
* Sheath .....4mm leather (No, not set up for leather)
* Time for finishing knife One month from day you enter KITH (Seems reasonable)
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Sorry Stuart , you are also out of KITH . You can t make leather sheath and If you participate, it is not okay to get a knife that you do not want ....I give slicer and I get 4mm thick blade ????.............no way Jose!
Did I make some point about KITH ?
 
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I don't think that pro makers will be tempted to enter even if all the knives are very high quality. Just these types of events are for new guys that are very passionate to make something and show off.
 
Natlek said:
Me too...........
I have idea for KITH , what do you think on something like this ?
* Knife type .....hunting full tang knife
* Length of knife 10 inch
* Thickness of steel 4mm
* Wide of blade One and half inch
* Full flat grind , 0.10 BTE , and at least 1000 grit finish
* Steel Elmax
* HT of steel ,only by professional like JT or other professional shop
* Handle/scale material......Ironwood or Koa wood Grade/class A
* Only Corby pins
* Sheath .....4mm leather
* Time for finishing knife One month from day you enter KITH
If you can meet these conditions................
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Well, I can’t do this, all my steel and leather are measured in inches, no metric system in my garage!
 
Here’s an idea, let’s start a kith where participants simply make the best knife they can within a 3 month time period. The knife has to be at least 7 inches in length but it can be any style, blade steel, handle material, etc. However, all participants have to show pics of their work before joining the kith, and the host can choose who they feel is qualified. If enough people at different skill levels join, then there could possibly be two groups representing different skill levels. This way, everyone that receives a knife will more than likely get something they will be satisfied with. Plus their opinion will be more valued if they choose to critique the other knife makers work.
 
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It's pretty cool to come across a knife buried down in a bag full of customs and find an ugly duckling from a KITH many years ago and know that nowadays that maker is winning awards. Sorta cool, to me at least.

N Natlek , I actually think a "contest" such as you propose might not be a bad thing around here. More criteria than a typical exchange. A set of expectations to help someone decide whether to join or not. Pat yourself on the back when you post a pic of a knife you're proud of and send it on to another participant. A couple of your specifications might could use some negotiation :), but it's interesting. I'm too slow to ever participate but the idea has an appeal.

KITH should be about a good time. You do your best work and if you get lazy or greedy and serve up sh!t, well, that's on your soul. And whatever knife you get, you keep. And appreciate some guy is doing his best to make someone feel like they got something worthy. Selling someone's KITH is pure horse...
My 2cents on KITH. Worth less in today's market.
 
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The first time that I saw KITH was in the Bladesmit's Forum and I tought that this is the coolest idea ever and that it will be so much fun to join. The theme of the KITH was make a knife with materials that you can buy from the local hardware store. There were guys forging blades from cold chissels, drill bits, making damascus from hand saws and all that crazy stuff. And the skill range of the finished knives was very different . There were some master level pieces and some simple but functional ones. I guess they were all doing it in their free time as a fun project. I really wanted to join but at that time I couldn't send knives abroad but my intention was: I want to make a damascus blade from hacksaw blades and show how good I am and I want my knife to be the coolest one. I was not thinking much about - oh man I hope that I will receive a knife from one of the big guys. I even tought - damn , alot of the pros are entering , if I enter, my knife will not be the best. For me it was something like a competition.

And now I checked the 2021 KITH in bladesmithing forums - its still a pretty cool theme - "Any knife, but must begin with 1 cubic inch of starting stock". And the first time when I saw there is a KITH in this forum too I was interested but then I saw the rules - choose a preset profile , that will be cut and hardened and you will go from there. I don't say it's bad and I understand the reasons why it's like that but I just think that these are made for fun. And the more rules and parameters to match - the less people will be interested. Of course If there is someone with very poorly made knife , you can always thell him politely that he still has some things to learn and to try again next time and give him some feedback to improve.

So my idea is that you can't attract more and skilled makers with alot of quality requirements but with more fun and interesting projects that they will enjoy making and even use as unusual piece of promotion on their social media.

Of cource I might be completely wrong about all this and people would say "ah screw this , i'm not making stupid things like ladyes edc knife out of hair pins"
 
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