what would you do for protection?

What would I, or my wife do??? See below.

RugerSSix.jpg


Never give a criminal an even break! ... to paraphrase W.C. Fields. ;)

L.W.
 
CanDo said:
jackknife,

Good to hear I'm not alone in my reasoning, and good to hear you made it out OK. Could you elaborate on what happened? A big gray area for me concerns displaying the firearm:
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In the spring of 1988, a friend and i went backpacking as sort of a get away from the old ladys weekend. We went on the AT in the Shenedoah National Park, and parked at the Gravel Springs shelter parking lot about 17 miles south of Front Royal virginia. We took the Bluff trail north toward Big Devil stairs. We reached Big Devil stairs about noon and made camp as per park regs, with our tent out of sight of the trail. Using that as our base camp, we hiked down to the senic cliff overlook on the big Devil Stairs trail. Had some lunch, enjoyed the view of Wolf Mountain. Hiking back up to our camp, we hit the intersection of Big Devil Stairs trail and the Bluff trail. At that point we were only about 200 yards from our out of sight camp. Standing at the trail intersection leaning against the trail sign was this guy.

Everyone you run into on the AT is usualy of a type. Theres the hippy backpacker, the yuppy backpacker with his REI and Hudson Trail Outfitter gear. Poly and synthetic clothes. This guy was out of place and weird. An older guy alone, dressed in a old green canvas work coat frayed a bit, greese or paint stained work pants, those yellow work boots you see on constrction sights badly worn and some sort of stains. Had kind of a hobo look to him, no gear or pack in sight. He was smoking a ciggerette and there was a few butts on the ground so he'd been there a while. I said hello and he wouldn't meet our eye's, sort of looked away as we passed. Didn't say a word. Danny and I went back to camp and started making dinner on the little Optimus stove. Evening settled in, and we had a drink from the flask Danny had brought, and we stayed up watching the stars come our through the tree tops. Talked about this and that, had a pipe while Danny enjoyed one of his cigars.

We turned in and it was maybe 9;30 to 10ish. Just as I was drifting off to sleep I heard it. I know theres all kinds of noises in the woods at night, I had been backpacking since I was a teenager. I've heard deer, and other animals. I'm far from a kid and I've been around the block. This was the sound of footsteps. There would be a set of steps, going crunch, crunch, crunch, and stop. Silence for a bit, then a few more steps, quetly, like someone was walking very slowly trying to be quiet. I softly asked Danny if he was awake, and he said yes, he heard it too. Very quetly unzipped sleeping bags and pulled on boots. Ran the tent zip dpwn real quet and crawled out. I took up a position laying on the ground in back of a tree and Danny did the same off to the other side of our tent.

Nothing happened for a bit, then the footsteps again, much closer. Doing like they tought us in the army, using scaning with our eyes to take advatage of the way the rods and cones are set up, I cought a look at a figure in the night. There was part of a moon, maybe a bit less than half, so the woods were not that dark. There was a figure sneaking from tree to tree working his way closser to the tent. I glance over at Danny and he lets me know he sees him too. We're both veterns and have some training an experiance. So this goes on for a bit. Its quiet, then a few more crunching footsteps and the shadowy figure getting closer.

Finally at about 30 yards I tell who ever it is in a loud tone of voice, that I can see him sneaking around and he'd better get the "F" out of here. Silence for bit. I tell him again to take off. Silence. Okay, we've got an unknown person in the night playing games with us miles from anywhere. Sorry I don't play games like that.

I know Danny has a Smith and Wesson model 63 kit gun, I can see it in his hand where he's laying. I have one just like it on me. Niether me nor Danny is very trusting, and the little J frame .22 is light so its a camping/backpacking companion. I tell Danny to put his fingers in his ears and I aim about 10 feet over where the known person is standing behind a tree, and fire a warning shot. It's surprising at night how much muzzle flash and noise you get out of a 4 inch .22.

For several seconds nothing happens, then we can see a person suddenly take off running away through the woods at top speed, and we listen to his fadding footsteps. We stand watch the rest of the night, taking it in 2 hour watches. Morning we talk it over to debrief ourselves, and keep an eye out for the green man all the way back. it was kind of spooky to have someone actually stalking our camp. I'm very thankfull for that .22 revolver.

Earlier, in 1983 we, my wife and I, were on a hike and we picked a nice spot for a little picnic off the trail about 50 yards up in a grove of pine trees. We were having a good time when this guy comes walking down the trail, sees us up in the pines, looks back down the trail, looks all around, then starts walking up towards us. I get a real hinky feeling and tell him we're having a private picnic, please don't bother us. He grins this weird grin and keeps walking up towards us. As he's comming closer he slides his right hand into his jacket pocket. Now the little hairs on the back of my neck tingle, and I whisper to Karen to get ready, this ain't good.

At this point I take out my model 63 and Karen takes out her .22 revolver. Soon as the gun comes out, the guy freezes. He dosen't say anything, but he's knodding his head up and down slightly, and he slowly takes out his hand from his coat pocket. Empty. I tell him to get the "F" ing hell away from us, and he slowly turns around and walks back down to the trail. What came next was the chilly part. He looks back up at us, still grinning, and just says "You're lucky." and he walks away down the trail.

Thats two times I am very scared to think of what may have happened if not for my old .22 kit gun.

I wouldn't travel the AT unarmed for all the tea in China.
 
Thanks jackknife for sharing your experience. That settles the "carry or not to carry" issue pretty well. I like to think of criminals as drugged out homeless guys who pull a knife and ask for your wallet, the fact that there are much worse people around -especially in the woods - is pretty scary. That the first one mentioned was stalking two grown men... WTF?
 
I've posted about my defensive experiences on the trail here before. I don't hike unarmed. If I'm in PA I'll have a handgun. Here I have either a machete or a BK-7.

"3) One of the hardest things for many people to overcome is our upbringing. We are taught to be polite, not be rude, and not to be aggressive. Many people got spanked for it. In adulthood, the rule is (Gavin de Becker put it perfectly): "My safety first, your feelings second." It's very difficult to change this conditioning. There are times to be polite, and others to be rude and assertive to make sure you are safe. But most regular folks who never had a really bad thing happen can't snap out of it when the SHTF."

+10 Brian. Here in Brazil I have had to overcome my fear of being rude, maybe running the risk of setting people off or being thought of as some sort of racist or stuck up member of the upper class. We are the only species that will talk ourselves into victimhood.

Situational awareness is is HUGE. Pay attention and don't kid yourself that you do this all the time naturally. There are lots of times you will catch yourself in condition white. Living in a state of alertness is like driving in heavy traffic, it takes effort and concentration. It is a discipline liek any other.

Violent crime knows no politics. I read recently that violence doesn't solve everything, but it does solve some things, like fights. Mac
 
Regarding awareness, etc. I know I've linked to this already in another thread, but in case anyone missed, it's an excellent post on "Situational Visualization" by mercop. I then threw out the questions that guide my own defense training from the mindset and psychological standpoint. Mercop answers the questions superbly and I think the answers are required reading for anyone interested in this subject:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=535322
 
Here's a couple stories I had completely forgotten about.
My wife(then girlfriend) and I were car camping in CA one time when this carload of hippy looking teenagers pulled up close by. No big deal...untill they pulled out a BUNCH of guns, including an AK-47. They started "target practice" (10 yards with an AK :rolleyes:) During one of their breaks they all huddled around the car and started talking in a hushed tone (no they weren't smoking out) and casting furtive glances our direction. All in all it wasn't really that threatening, they might have actually been worried about us, but I got that feeling that something wasn't right. We packed up quick and split.

Another time, same trip, in Nevada we set up camp by a nice little river. When we went on a walk we saw a guy sitting alone in his truck about 100 yards form where we were camped. Again, no big deal. He stayed in his truck the whole time, probably 3 or 4 hours. We hung out and cooked dinner, it got dark and we went to bed in the tent. After laying there for about 10 minutes we heard his door open and close, then I heard slow deliberate footsteps nearby and the dog started growling. I jumped up with my knife and a flashlight and started spotlighting around the area. I never saw the guy, but that was enough for us. I ripped the tent up with everything still in it and threw it in the back of the car and hauled ass. To this day my wife refuses to spend the night in Nevada.
 
CanDo said:
Thanks jackknife for sharing your experience. That settles the "carry or not to carry" issue pretty well. I like to think of criminals as drugged out homeless guys who pull a knife and ask for your wallet, the fact that there are much worse people around -especially in the woods - is pretty scary. That the first one mentioned was stalking two grown men... WTF?
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Looking back on the whole thing, I have no doubt he was some sort of woods vagrant with plans to maybe cut our throats and steal all we had. It was kind of a "you would have had to be there" things to understand what I'm saying, but I do believe it was the down at the heels looking guy who would not make eye contact with us earlier. I'm not a person who is biased againt working class clothing, I'm a retired machinist and spent my working life in oil splotched work clothes. But this guy had a dirty on the run look to him, and he was as out of place at that trail intersection as a junkyard dog at the westminister dog show. If he was some on the run charater, what Danny and I had was a treasure to him. Food, down sleeping bags, tent, stove, money and credit cards. Don't forget the elderly couple killed in North carolina for the credit and ATM cards. Maybe enough to kill for. There's some around who will kill for less.


No, life ain't a Walt Disney movie, and I don't plan to be unarmed, rules or not.
 
I am surprised about how many people have had bad experiences humans. I have been hiking my whole life and have never had a problem with anyone, although I am only 21. I was planning on going solo to scout out some camping in a state park along the AT. I don't have a firearm so maybe I will work on bringing someone along with me.
 
I am very aware of my surroundings everywhere I go,
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ABout 6 years ago I was out of work for a year
I played Counter-Strike ("first person shooter" game for the PC) 8 hours a day
Playing shoot em up games FOR SURE instills the concept of know your surroundings
It teaches you to think/look for every possible place a perpetrator could be hiding

I went to my favorite gas station late one night
I go to pay and no one is inside the store
I waited fro like 5 minutes
Then I got this instant feeling that maybe the cashier was being held in the back room by some robber
Or he was tied up in the bathroom
Or some robbers are gonna jump out and assault me
I instantly got in my Counter Strike mode
I scanned the parking lot, the roof tops (for snipers ya know...), across the street, behind the dumpster, in the repair shop.....
I was convinced the cashier (my "friend", since I got gas there late nights weekly) was in some sort of bad situation
I was just about to go home (about 3 minutes away) and arm myself with some gatts and comeback and investigate further
You know...just in case my friend was in need
All of a sudden the cashier comes out from the back after like 10 minutes===>
I guess he was taking a dump!!!!!
"Man homie!!..I thought you were getting jacked!!..I was going home to get my Colt .45 to help you out!!!"
We both had a good laugh......

So...YES
I concur that knowing your surroundings is the best policy
And play a shoot em up FPS video game to sharpen your skills
There is a reason why the military uses video games as a training tool
I'm on to BattleField 2 now..No more Counter Strike
I'm ranked #43 out 800,000 players for the Spec Ops class :eek:

swat_signals.jpg
 
You know I could never advocate carrying a handgun up here...it's illegal and somebody could be watching so for the record, I would never, ever, ever do something illegal even if it meant me and my family were going to be sacrificed as victims of the nanny state.


But aside from the various things tucked in my jacket that I won't mention, if I am in the deep bush I usually have one of the 18" Wetterlings axes on my belt - or else I am carrying a rifle and don't need the extra weight!

Anyway, when I am done with any attacker I work over with that axe, I'm pretty sure I'm not going to want to look at the body!


As far as the sorts of things that I would never carry, because handguns are inherently immoral (the state has informed me of this and I'm sure they know best,) if it were somehow to become legal, I guess I'd stick to the stuff that's been reliable for me and others since way back in the year 1911. Although 6 hot JHPs out of the gp100 would probably make a mess out of most people, too.
 
andrew7978 said:
Recently there seems to be a lot of talk about protection in the woods primarily from humans. Well I just finished watching the movie Zodiac (don't worry, I won't spoil anything) and there is a scene where two people are held at gun point in state park and then tied up. How would you react if this was you?? I know this is sort of practical and tactical, but as someone pointed out in another thread, this could happen in a camping or hiking situation (although hopefully this type of thing is rare and will never happen to any of us)
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I have not seen the movie, but with the fact I can't carry firearms all of the time out in the woods, I couldn't rely on firearms. Instead, I'd rather not allow anyone to get the jump on me. If they somehow do, and appear more interested in tying me up than just shooting me straight off, I would let them get close (it's generally difficult to tie up someone if you're not within physical contact distance), and at that point, I would attack open hand and show them why they picked the wrong guy. Hopefully.
 
Umm, never read the book and never saw the movie. Guess I should see it to see just how accurate it is.

I was a teenager in Vallejo, California at the time the Zodiac was running around in that area. A young couple that he shot at Blue Rock Springs Park, were highschool lovers and the park was a favorite place for making out, so I'm thinking that they were a little busy when he pulled in and if they saw anything, it was just before he fired his weapon. At that time, there was nothing around the park, now it's full of housing, golf course and shopping malls. Located on Columbus Parkway, which led to the Napa/Vallejo highway and American Canyon, which was pretty much all range land for cattle and the hills are dotted with old silver mines. Just before getting to the park, there is a road called Lake Herman and this is where a bunch of us went to drink and raise heck away from the town. This is where myself a 4 other young men were chased by a lunatic in a pickup. He had a flat top haircut and black horn rimmed glasses. Shot were fired at us, breaking the rear window of our vehicle, but nobody was injured. We gave a report, description of vehicle and man in vehicle and were told later that it was probably the zodiac, but since they didn't have an ID of him at the time, they couldn't be sure. Yeah, we all had to change our shorts after that one.

What would I do, well........... that little chase taught me quite a bit about the needs to protect ones self and I'd be handing out lead when it got right down to it.
 
I got beat up and robbed by three scumbags when I was a teenager. I broke loose and they could not catch me. I tried to stay near my vehicle to keep them from getting into it , but they started chucking rocks at me. I had to retreat a safe distance and watch them take everything of value. That will never happen again.

One more thing, I will never be taken captive. Id rather be shot in the back running away, then be someones prisoner.
 
Elen said:
I have not seen the movie, but with the fact I can't carry firearms all of the time out in the woods, I couldn't rely on firearms. Instead, I'd rather not allow anyone to get the jump on me. If they somehow do, and appear more interested in tying me up than just shooting me straight off, I would let them get close (it's generally difficult to tie up someone if you're not within physical contact distance), and at that point, I would attack open hand and show them why they picked the wrong guy. Hopefully.
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In the case of the San Fransisco area zodiac killer, that actually may have stood a chance of working.

In the book, if I recall corectly so many years later, he would operate in areas where it may have been secluded, but not isolated. Like in the back part of parks, nighttime in suburbs. According to testimony of one of the survivors he left behind, he used the gun to intimidate the victims to allow him to tie them up. Then he'd put the gun away and take out a knife to kill them with. It's obvious he did not want to make noise for fear of being cought while getting out of the area. Charles Manson did the same thing, promise the victims if they went along with the program peacefully he wouldn't shoot them. Once bound, the victims got butchered.

Lesson; fight like hell if they want to tie you up!

I think most criminals you will run into are cowards by nature, and run off in the face of resitance. That guy Gary Hilton looks like what he is, a pathetic looser fit only for taking lone young women by surprise or elderly senior citizens. Most of these cases that they find who done it, its somebody like that. Chicken sh-ts at heart, looking for an easy prey.
 
dipbait said:
One more thing, I will never be taken captive. Id rather be shot in the back running away, then be someones prisoner.
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:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

I'd rather get shot before I helped a robber/rapist get what he wants, hoping he will keep his promise not to hurt anyone if everyone cooperates. Why for god's sake should I trust him? When someone points a gun at me I'll assume that I'll get shot anyway and react accordingly.
 
longbow50 said:
Umm, never read the book and never saw the movie. Guess I should see it to see just how accurate it is.

I was a teenager in Vallejo, California at the time the Zodiac was running around in that area. A young couple that he shot at Blue Rock Springs Park, were highschool lovers and the park was a favorite place for making out, so I'm thinking that they were a little busy when he pulled in and if they saw anything, it was just before he fired his weapon. At that time, there was nothing around the park, now it's full of housing, golf course and shopping malls. Located on Columbus Parkway, which led to the Napa/Vallejo highway and American Canyon, which was pretty much all range land for cattle and the hills are dotted with old silver mines. Just before getting to the park, there is a road called Lake Herman and this is where a bunch of us went to drink and raise heck away from the town. This is where myself a 4 other young men were chased by a lunatic in a pickup. He had a flat top haircut and black horn rimmed glasses. Shot were fired at us, breaking the rear window of our vehicle, but nobody was injured. We gave a report, description of vehicle and man in vehicle and were told later that it was probably the zodiac, but since they didn't have an ID of him at the time, they couldn't be sure. Yeah, we all had to change our shorts after that one.

What would I do, well........... that little chase taught me quite a bit about the needs to protect ones self and I'd be handing out lead when it got right down to it.
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Is this actually a true story? After watching the movie I have been reading up on stuff about it and was interested in reading the book sometime.
 
What Brian said. READ AND HEED!

There is an old police saying which is now popular in Iraq.
"Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet."

One other reminder ...... numbers don't guarantee safety.
 
TRENT ROCK - "I was just about to go home (about 3 minutes away) and arm myself with some gatts and comeback and investigate further."
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Mr. Rock, a friendly suggestion.

The next time something like that happens to you, the smartest thing you can do is get the Hell outta there and immediately call nine one one.

L.W.
 
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