What would you do?

Keith>>

I am going to try to keep the store going without selling crappy knives. I am, unfortunately, going to have to look into more low-end knives to try to keep customers coming back long enough to educate them to better knives. I give a warrantee on all of my knives so I won't buy anything I can't rely on to have a consistant lock-up, and hold together. Thank goodness there are still a number of companies that make reasonably sound, very inexpensive, "cool knives" without knocking-off someone elses design.

I still refuse to sell knock-offs. That is why I wouldn't sell the Cold Steel ring lock knife that was out for a while. It was a knock-off of an Opinal.

Here are a couple of questions I'll probably start a different thread with. How long does a knife style have to be out before it is considered a traditional design? How much change needs to happen before it is just a similar design and not a knock-off?

rev_jch>>

I do have an internet website. It has almost all of the major brands of knives, flashlights, etc. (20,000+ products). When I was setting it up, I got some design help from another knife newsgroup. I wanted to thank them by giving them what I though was a good deal (30% off retail). They seemed insulted I would charge so much!:confused: I ended up thanking them by giving them 40% off of retail for two weeks. I lost money! (I put it down to advertising.:rolleyes:)

TLM>>

I wholeheartedly agree with you! I wish the major knife manufacturers would get a clue. They keep pricing themselves higher and higher. They are pricing themselves out of the market. They then end up giving outragous deals to huge chain stores who then sell the knives at prices the public are willing to buy, but is at or near the price storefronts pay as cost. The manufacturers need make a lower-end version of their popular designs -- effectively knocking-off their own designs (and making it not cost effective for the rip-off companies to compete).

Richard>>

I agree completely. Unfortunately knife knuts are as much to blame for the problems retail stores face (and in more and more cases internet stores are facing) as the knock-off companies. They want a good knife, but are unwilling to pay the MSRP. The internet companies lowered their costs to try to get business. I know quite a few of my "customers" (ie. lookers only) check out the new stuff at the store, then go home and buy it off the internet. (That would be fine if they bought it from my website, but they don't.):grumpy:

Too many knife knuts shop for the cheapest price, then complain that the customer service sucked. Guess what; they never seem to learn. and shop at the same type of sites over and over again. Yes the internet rules, and I guess price is more important than customer service. I get really tired of customers telling me my prices are too high even at a measly 20% - 30% markup.:barf:

Roadrunner>>
I wish more people thought like you do.

brownie0486>>

Thanks for the idea! I belong to a couple of knife clubs in the area. I never seem to have time to make the meetings. It might be a good idea to close the store on those evenings and Sundays and start going to the meetings again. I'll also check out the sportsmans clubs in the area.

DarkReazon>>

Unfortunately you are right pride in workmanship seems to be dying out. But I can understand that when the buying public refuses to pay for it. BTW the vendor didn't seem proud. He seemed more sad that this was the only way he could make a living selling knives.

Thanks for all the comments. At least I know this isn't just a problem I'm having. I appreciate the help.

Pam
 
I'm a big supporter of my local B&M knife shop and for good reasons. Because I'm such a frequent visitor, the store owner will let me know whenever he gets any new releases (esp. numbered editions, pre-pro), will let me handle whichever knives I like without question, and will usually give me a discount or special edition knives at close to cost. I've never asked for any of the above, but through the years that I've bought there, the owner and I have become friends. The prices I pay still aren't the same as net prices but if you figure in shipping, they come pretty close.
I do support some net shops but mostly 1sks.com because of the forums. However, I will not support mall shops that charge more than MSRP. My point is hang in there Pam! We need more good knife shops!
Take care,
Matt
 
I say live and let live...
As much as we don't like knockoffs, we're at a point in civilization that everything is a knockoff of something else. Certain things exist for so long that it's public domain.. it's not your problem... Your problem is to make an honest living. If you deem selling certain brands to be dishonest, then you have every right not to partake... what one does not have the right to do is to pull vigilante stuff. It is well established that a knockoff is not a counterfeit, and that patent and trademark violations are for the makers to sort out themselves.

My take on the deal? Sell both... Explain to your customers why one knife costs more than the other and then let them make their choice. In the end, you've cheated no one and you've done your best.

On a slight tangent, I think the plight of the industry being wronged by "knockoffs" is partially hypocritical...
No one says philipino butterfly knives are being "knocked off" by benchmade and microtech, and no one screams "foul" about phantom knives so blatantly copying the chinese police knives. I think it's all about trade protectionism and profit margins, and sometimes even racism. The rest is just propaganda.
 
I'm sorry to hear about your show. People are just uneducated about knives. I go to gun shows that have quite a few knives and you see people buying good, expensive guns and picked up a knock-off at the same time.
 
I see nothing wrong with selling and buying crap. We all have the liberty and freedom to spend our money any way we wish and if someone wishes to buy crap, then there should be a business man with enough business sense to cater to that person. That same buyer could also be a car collector...so, cars are important, knives are not. <shrug> Whatever makes him/her happy, no?

As an example, I don't care for fancy shampoo (soap is fine) but I know some folks (mostly women) who will spend $20 or more on a bottle of quality shampoo (keep in mind, quality and value is a perception). Again, whatever they want. It's not my money so I'll stick with the crappy soap (or $1.49 shampoo) because I think $20 shampoo is not good value for keeping my hair clean.

As for the knockoff aspect...well, that's been covered. I'd just like to say, more crap to those who want it! More quality to folks like us!
 
maximus otter - nice quote.

Unfortunately, Ruskin ran into the same problems we're having today.

This is a debate that has run rampant since the beginning of the Industrial Revolution. It will never be resolved as long as there continue to be people who sell "quality" over "quantity". Don't get me wrong - I support that idea.

How many of us shop at Wal-mart? or K-mart? ;)

The best thing you can do is discover your niche - the people who buy and appreciate your specific product line - and market yourself to death, just to them.

Is the issue here just about money? If so, you may need to adjust your business model and include things that make a better profit. If not, and if it's really about something else that you care about, then be prepared to take the crap that comes along with it.

I wonder how many of the people on this forum buy modern art? or support local artists in their area by buying their work?

:(

You should go and ask them what it's like to paint a "non-traditional" painting and try to sell it to "Ma & Pa America".

Why should Ma & Pa pay $500 for a piece of art when they can go to Wal-mart and buy a cute painting of a house for $15? frame included!



I have argued this point until I'm blue in face probably a thousand times.

There is only one difference between a "cheap-o" buyer and a "high-end" buyer:

EDUCATION

If you want to sell more and expand your customer base, you have to be willing to educate your customers.

Bring them to your level of appreciation. Use brochures, demonstrations, whatever it takes.

I chuckly when I hear from knifemakers who go to a show, spread their knives out on the table, and then wonder why people don't just fall over themselves trying to get one, with only basic preparation or effort on the knifemakers part.

The answer is not a simple "rope-cutting demonstration"...:rolleyes:



The reason that guy is making so much money selling cheapos and knock-offs is because he has lowered himself and his customers to that level, rather than lifting and enlightening his customers to his level. Perhaps he was once there, but no longer has his heart in it.

Hopefully you will not lose yours...
 
Well, here's an idea towards the knockoff problem.

Make a bunch of simple flyers on a copying machine. Maybe attach a piece of candy to them.

Answer a few basic questions.

Why are your knives so "expensive"?
How are they different from this $5 knife?
Why does blade steel matter?
Why is it important to have a good lock?
Will a better knife last longer?

Add some contact info at the bottom.

People just need to understand that pocket knives are tools. Just like a hammer or power drill, you can buy the cheap, crappy knock off variety. But, in the end, you pay more because you have to replace the tool as it breaks. And, just like a hammer or power drill, someone can get really hurt when it does break.

I don't know what to tell you about the internet competition, though. Companies are finding ways to make money at rock bottom markups, because it means huge volume. The internet seems to be making consumer goods into commodities.

I think the manufacturers will eventually start selling directly to the public over the internet, and will cut out the internet-only middle man, especially if the middle man isn't providing anything extra to the customer.

-- Rob
 
I was at the show on Saturday. I noticed the cheap knife sellers as well. I also noticed how busy they were. However, none of the customers struck me as the types who would drop $100 into a quality folder even if they knew the differences.

BTW, I just noticed you sell Anza knives. Did you have any at the show? I certainly didn't notice them if you did (yes, I did stop by your table). I've had a mild interest in those knives, but have only seen/held one so far.

Chris
 
baraqyal>>

Great idea!! I am making up flyers tonight! I'm going to figure out how to fit that on my business card too. I think I'm going to put it on the flyer as questions though, and tell them to check the website or stop by the store for answers.

mtnbkr>>

No I didn't have any Anza Knives at the show. I have been a fan of Anza since they started. One of the first knives they put out was call a "Tiny Wienie". The write up that went with the knife was very punny and almost X-Rated. It was genius material! I should have some in the store again soon (or you could check the site).

The knives themselves are well made. The blades are of course a bit thick because they are files, however they balance surprisingly well. They come out of the box shaving sharp, hold an edge well, and are easy to sharpen. They are great as a hunting or camping knife.

Wish I had know who you were. I would have said hi. I wore my BFC shirt on Friday.

Thanks again guys. You are great for moral support and good ideas.

Pam
 
The general breakdown of the buying public:

1%-10% are the trend leaders - they set the direction of the trend, must have the first of any latest and the best widget, and money is no objection.

10-15% are the early adopters - they follow current trends but wait
until a trend has shown legs. They are the purchasers of quality, but see value in the long term.

20%-30% are the fashion followers - they want the image of the best and most current, but are unwilling to pay the premium price. They look for sales on high end product, or buy decent knock offs of quality product. These are the portion of the buying public that set manufacturers profit margins.

45% are the late adopters, or what I would call the buying sheeple - they don't care about or cannot afford quality, and look for the cheapest version of a product that they can get to satisfy their buying needs.

Bear in mind that depending on the product concerned, a buyer might be in any one of these categories. For example, I have a friend who is a successful real estate developer. He is an early adopter in car purchases (he loves Porsche 911's), but couldn't care less about his brand of beer. He is a fashion follower in his choice of clothes ( he buys off the rack suits at the department store on sale), and like rumble says, buys his soap and bath toiletries at Costco because he can't see paying a premium for stuff like that.

Knives are a luxury good, making them VERY vulnerable to buying trends. When you consider that there has never been such a HUGE variety of knife manufacturers and product out there, that is why there is such a demand for mid to low end product. It surprises me that even in the low end knock off market, the quality has improved relative to what was in the market 15 years ago.

So cover all of the price points, sell qualty and value in service, and keep a tight control on your inventory turns. You might just make a living out of it. Last but most important - KNOW YOUR CUSTOMER.


George
 
crucible, what percentage does the true knife knut like me fit into, the person who has to have a knife, but not based on trends or having to have the best, the person who buys a knife just becase of it's utility or beauty, kinda like the person who owns or buys collectible antiques, aw who am I kidding, I'm sick I have a disease, I have to own knives, doesn't matter cheap, expensive, little, big, folders, fixed blades.

What is the percentage of true knife psychos?
 
I can't offer any more advice than what's been given so far. I do have a related experience to share though. One of the members of my gun club died and willed his guns and knives to the club. They auctioned them off to start a scholarship fund. I wasn't that interested in the guns, but I wanted at least one of his knives - long story.

I bid on and won a Randall model 1, with sheath and stone, that appears unused, for $220. I could hear comments from the crowd - "$220 for a knife?" Not all of the folks were that obtuse, especially the person that came in 2nd.


I admire you for sticking to quality knives, but $3,000 a show is tempting.

Best of luck and the next time I'm in WV I'll try to make it to your store.
 
Mk23 - where at in Merryland?

Lady - could you give me a distance to your shop from 20877?

If it's not too far, my family's in need of a good day trip on the road and WV is always a fun place to go.

Dan
 
I can only tell you that I had a similar situation a couple of years ago that resulted in me shutting down a small business. Instead of knives I sold very highly modified computer cases that I customized and even managed to get a highly sought after painter to do art work on.

I ran into the same thing. people just didn't seem to care how much time and effort (not to mention only the highest quality parts) that was put into the case they saw the price and took a pass. It didn't seem to matter that the cases got tons of praise for their appearance and quality people just seem to like to by crap.

I think when you're dealing in anything high quality you have to really diversify your stock even if you hate dealing in cheap crap. It just seems like the low quality crap keeps you afloat so you can sell the items you really like to deal in.
 
You are going to have to go with your gut on this one, Pam. I admire you for having a point that you will not go below. There are lots of decent to good knives that don't cost much. Look at Opinel.

Not trying to advertise for Mike or anything, but I would also take a look at the Boss and Lile knives that Mike Turber represents. These look to offer great value and are in a price range that most people are willing to pay.

My god, I just took a look at Smoky Mountain Knife Works/eKnifeWorks. I had no idea that there were so many cheap knives in this world. This site has over 1500 knives that cost $20.00 or less. There must be a real market for these things. Where the heck have I been? I look at lots of knives that cost thousands of dollars and don't think they are overpriced. I look at the knives on this site and I wouldn't take most of them if they were free.

Pam, I can see what you are up against. If all you had to go by was the pictures, you might think a lot of these knives were alright.
 
pendentive;

Silver Spring - Montgomery county - probably the worst place in the state, except for PG or balimer, but the people are more real there.

How about you?
 
Pendentive>>

You are about an hour and a half from me. Basically take I-270 North to I-70 West to I-81 South. The store is off VA Exit 323. If you're planning a weekend trip, call before you come out as the hours vary. I am going to take dsvirsky's advice and try some gun shows, so I may be closed.

Everyone Else>>

Thanks for the support and advice! You have no idea how much it helped. It basically gave me the boost to keep trying. You guys are the greatest!

Thanks again,
Pam
 
It's a hard thing to say for sure, I mean how many of us at younger ages liked knives? How many of us got a high quality knife for our first? I rememebr in the 80's. I wanted a real Balisong. I wanted a real "Survival knife" Chris Reeve. I couldn't imagine anyone in the world could buy a $300 knife. I got Pakistan balisong and a Taiwan hollow handle knife instead. Times Change. Hell, I spent SEVERAL HUNDREDS on knives and accessories just last month...:eek: Times change, but would I have made it this far if I was never able to find a knife I could afford? Some people will just buy the cheapest, I am sooo bad about that, with everything but knives. :p



On the other hand, many knives are cheap and are not knock offs.
KaBar has an international line that sells for about $9.00 for a Griptilian size liner lock with clip. It's still made in China. It's still cheap. But, it does have a WORKING lock, and a lifetime warranty. A Cheap Knife is not a knock off. I sometimes think folks get that confused.

I KNOW there are many inexspensive knives to sell that will not violate your ethics. I wish you well, it is unfortunate that knife stores are moving that way, the only decicated knife store here closed
down last year, luckily Bass Pro International Headquaters is only down the street. Schrade and Buck have some nice new stuff.

I see no problem with selling inexpensive knives. Just no blatant rip-offs. I see no reason not to have a cheaper line, I truly believe it can be done. I don't own a business though. Good luck, off to look at your website.


Thanks for reading, I hope I actually said something.....
 
MK23 - Gaithersburg. I was just in Silver Spring this afternoon on business. "Lovely place"...:rolleyes:

When they gonna stop trying to stuff so many people into one place? Seems like every corner I go around, there's another housing development going up. Pretty soon, they'll have to make an upper level of sidewalk to give people room to walk...who am I kiddin...nobody walks - they all use their cars...

Glad you can appreciate the humor that is Montgomery County.

Oh, and the taxes, too...


Pam - thanks for the directions. I'm planning a trip up 68 across to western MD - so perhaps I'll drop in. I'll be sure to call ahead. Good luck with the shows!


Dan
 
While we who post on these forums can spot a knock off, and identify the knife it's copying, I don't think 98% of all Americans have a clue what makes a top quality knife, nor do they care. Knives for most of us occupy more than just a little bit of our free time. How many of us still get the bug-eye look from "sheeple" when we pull out a knife to cut a box? "I don't need a knife," says one guy "I can always cut that box open with my car keys." :rolleyes:

When I see table after table of knives from Pakistan and China being sold at local gun shows, it no longer surprises me. I know that the guys selling those are probably going to do better than the dealer selling quality production knives, like it or not. It's a free market issue for me:if there were no buyers (and demand), these guys wouldn't be selling their junk, week after week. But there is, and they do. geegee
 
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