Whats happened to Brass?

I used to try to polish the brass guard on one of Ed's knives all of the time, until I just stopped doing it. Over the course of time, I realized how nice brass looks in an unpolished state. The knives that sit unused with age often become darker in tone, sometimes very dark. If you handle your knife often the chemicals in sweat keeps the brass a golden color, even if it is duller-more "flat" than "gloss", it still has an attractive appearance.

Before, it used to bother me, the tarnish issue, now I'm completely O.K. with it. If you want it to make it look "new and pretty" shine it up. That simple.
David
 
I have nothing against patination, but I do think that different metals patinate differently. Patinated brass is simply dull and yellowish. NiSi is a tad better, but still not so great. Even silver looses a lot of its attractiveness over time.

To solve the dull patina problem, I feel that the two best solutions are either to go with something that will not patinate at all (stainless steel, or gold for small parts), or to go for alloys that will patinate, but do so beautifully. That incluides bronzes, shibuichi, shakudo, carbon steels, etc. They all pretty much require a patination process if you want to really control the color and uniformity, esp. for carbon steel (bluing, french grayed,...). Maybe it is possible to patinate brass and NiSi in a controlled fashion and get something beautifull?

In a different category, I love wrought iron for fittings. It has amazing and interesting character, looks different from anything else, and talk about tradition! Much better than brass (of course, it's also much harder to find, but it's worth it).
 
Nickel silver is OK, though I prefer stainless steel. Damascus is another favorite for fittings, as is wrought iron. I don't mind the look of brass fittings, but generally avoid it in the knives I buy.

Of course, there are exceptions ;) :

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Roger
 
I could write a book on my thoughts, but no one calls brass Englands Gold, it is brass and everyone knows its value. That other stuff has to have silver in its name and to my mind that has always had the intent of misleading the client.

Nickle silver has always reminded me of a cold cadaver, lifeless and it stays that way. I don't like its look or feel.

As has been mentioned in this thread, I like metals that age, metals that take on the environment they know. They can all be cleaned up if that is what we want. The brass guards on my old knives know no tarnish, and if they had some I would be proud of it. I live in a body that has known many wrecks, many broken bones, many scars and I am proud of each of them, I earned them honestly.

Bob Loveless made some beautiful knives with brass, I love them.

I would never condem anyone else for using it, if that is what they like that is fine. When we get the high performace association on the map, no one would be denied for using nickle silver, the only guideline will be performance.

I just purchased Fladerman's book on Bowies, there are a precious few knives in that book that I like. I was reading it, got tired of looking at nickle silver guards, poorly desgned knives that had never been used. I then found a real nice haven in a couple of books by Madison Grant and Gordon Minnis all about knives made in America by Americans.

On page 16 of Fladerman's book is a photograph of a great knife made in either Mexico or America, brass guard and more with a wood handle. Then on into the book photo of a Huber knife and some by Ames, all with brass fittings. Great knives that were made by folks that knew what they were doing.

Most of the folks who bought the 'fighting bowies' had no idea what they wre doing and I would bet the ranch that most figured nickle silver was a precious metal. To me it was hype, foreighners making money on our civil war and our hypnotic attachment to an immage of the fighting man with a silver fitted bowie.

I guess that those who judge nickle silver as high class stuff and bemone brass as some low lifle material only for others than the chosen few add a few more notes of discord to my opinion of nickle silver. They are usually folks who would not know how to skin an pack an elk or moose out horseback, still they dare to criticise knives while they are standing in shoes that have never known the graces of an honest cow pie.
 
Bruce Bump said:
Well said Ed. Im digging out my old brass tomarrow.
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Not me, although I must admit that brass does look good when used with desert ironwood.

Another problem I have with brass is the differing quality. Some is good, some bad. Another problem I have encountered is getting pins to properly match.

I can appreciate the "honesty of brass" when it comes to using terms such as "German Silver".

On a different subject but a burr under my saddle...

I only "thought" I had problems with differening qualities of brass.

That is nothing compared to a few years ago when someone was selling this hideously ugly yellow stuff pawned off as nickel silver. One of the suppliers finally got some of the "good stuff" and what did they do? They sheared it, rendering 1/4 inch from the edges useless!

Craig
 
The brass that I use is Alloy 360. The last that I bought came from Enco, 1-800-873-3626. Wayne Goddrd sent me the name ou an outfit that also sells Silicone Bronz, I can't find the number at this time, maybe Enco also sells it?
When I find the other number I will post it here.

In hungary Years ago they refered to brass as poor man's gold! I had never heard that term before.
 
Friends don't let friends use brass! :p :D


Seriously, brass has to be matched with a certain handle material, before I will think it's ok on a knife. It has to be a really nice match with this handle material, before I will buy the knife.
 
For an everyday pocket knife, and to offset certain handle materials, I can't see what is wrong with brass.
For a higher end knife I prefer to use 303/304 stainless steel over NiS at least for a pommel and guard. I will use NiS for spacers though. Yeah the stainless it's a real pain to hand work with files but it looks much nicer polished and finished.
 
When I started this thread, I had no idea how much traffic it would create. After seeing all the post I have decided that I will make my knives out of whatever I want. I am no professional, dont care what sells, dont care whats "in" (no seriously you should see how I dress!) so I will make my knives out of whatever I want to whenever I want and if some folks dont like them...well to put it bluntly...who cares! I do this because it is fun. I can be creative and learn a valuable skill in the process! Thanks to everyone who posted and you can bet youll be seeing brass on my future knives like it or not. :D
 
Nomomuney: Congradulations you have taken the first step into being what I call a free spirit artist of the world of knives. There once was a great teacher in the world of Art, Robert Henri, he wrote a book called "The Art Spirit". His book is next to my bed and I try to read from it on a regular basis. It comes in a paper back that is very affordable.

From your statement I believe you will find his thoughts welcome. I make every knife for myself first, when I am satisfied with her attributes others can give her a home.

The Phone number for the outfit that sells Silicone Bronz is Atlas Metal Sales, 1-800-662-0143, they sell other stuff also.
 
Thanks Ed, You said it better than anyone else could. Some have not and will not live long enough to experience and know all you have said. There are those who think they are in the center of what is happening but in reality are way out on the fringes some place looking for that which is right in front of them. The only thing I listen to is the "need to know" (basics) stuff over the years but have tried to filter it out from "what's in" and "what's out". I have always worked in the shadows and that is the way I like it, doing exactly what I like and making each knife to suit myself and if someone likes it that's ok...too. It seems too many measure success by using a measuring tool that is unknown to happiness or contentment. I never new "brass had no class" until someone told me. I always associated it with class because of the statement "Top Brass", if they only knew. :confused: The first time I herd that brass has no class I just couldn't believe my ears. Perhaps if a person wished to be in the upper class they wouldn't be an artist or knifemaker because the expression "The Starving Artist" has been with us for a long time. What's in and what's out with knives is a lot like with clothes. If you wait long enough it will be back in. I don't worry about either..! Who was it that said something like this that "only dead fish swim with the current? The dictionary says that one of the meanings for Nickel is "devil". It appears to be something it is not.

Each knife is like its maker, it "stands alone"...!

Ramsey
 
FWIW, I got some Aluminum Bronze from Gib. The color is just the coolest. It is closer to a gold color than brass. I have no personal experience what kinda patina it will develop and how corrosion resistant it is, but when polished ... well I like it.

The best web information I found was here.


http://www.cda.org.uk/megab2/corr_rs/pub80/sec1.htm

"Aluminium bronzes are the most tarnish-resistant copper alloys and show no serious deterioration in appearance and no significant loss of mechanical properties on exposure to most atmospheric conditions. Their resistance to atmospheric corrosion combined with high strength is exploited, for example, in their use for bearing bushes in aircraft frames. Aluminium bronzes also show low rates of oxidation at high temperatures and excellent resistance to sulphuric acid, sulphur dioxide and other combustion products and are, therefore, used for the construction of items exposed to either or both these conditions. For example, aluminium bronzes are used very successfully for inert gas fans in oil tankers. These operate under highly stressed conditions in a variable but very corrosive atmosphere containing salt-laden water vapour, sulphurous gases and carbon."

And this:

"Aluminium bronzes preserve their original golden colour for long periods under normal atmospheric exposure conditions which would produce green patination on copper, brass and most other copper alloys. "

So I suppose it wouldn't be a good choice for patina work, but is just great for those looking for shiny gold-colored fittings.

Steve
 
Hey Sando-
if ya don't mind some questions, I'd be really interested in trying some of that Aluminum Bronze in the future. The deeper gold color is just what I'd like.

How easy is it to solder the stuff? About like brass? Is it more malleable than brass (for cold forging curves into the guards and work hardening)?

thanx
 
The "art of being" - the Dine - aka Navajo - call it "Walking in Beauty" - it is when one is in balance/harmony with themselves, with the "world". The rest is nothing more or less than one's personal perception, which in of itself is neither good or bad it just "is".
 
Even silver looses a lot of its attractiveness over time.
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Addendum: re: patination - for your perusal - a silver trade cross made by Robert Cruikshank circa 1795 - IMO what a beautiful piece and to polish this would be like getting botox.... :barf: (and that attitude has NOTHING to do with monetary value but then as always in the words of the immortal Jerry Jeff - I am and always will be contrary to ordinary....)
rw-tc-001.jpg
 
I love nice patinas on metals like silver or bronze, even copper. I just can't seem to get brass to patina without serious corrosion unless it's been cleaned with a cloth and then put away in a box for a few years.
 
Possum, As far as working with Aluminum Bronze it is not that much different than Brass, a little harder to cut sharp tools are a must. However soldering is another story, I could not get Sty-Brite to work at all, I was able to silver/braze a guard on a blade and a collar on a pommel BUT it was a tuff go to do it. The silver/braze rod just would not flow and that is what silver/braze dose best. There are Fluxes out there that will over come the aluminum I have been told but I did not want to spend $40/oz to see if it would work. Gib
 
Thanks Gib for the info. I haven't tried any of that.

I do have one finished knife with alum bronze and one set of bolsters in the works. I used the ol' JB Weld trick. It doesn't seem to care about the aluminum.

I'm gonna be using more of it for sure.

Steve
 
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