What's Happening to Trust?

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BurkStar

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I have been trading/buying/selling on Bladeforums for a couple of years now. As far as I know there has never been a complaint about any deal I've been part of. When I first started here on BF's some of the older more well established individuals entered into trades with me and "trusted" me even though I had never had an online transaction before and at the time had a low number of posts (thanks Metis, Biohazard, Gadi Blilious and many many others). These individuals sent their knives simultaneously with mine with no hesitation. With this example I have tried to do the same with other new members and have only once had a problem.

The whole basis of the Knife Exchange is trust. There are quite a few people trading/selling/buying knives worth quite a bit of money and in reality having no idea who they're really dealing with having never met the person other than through this Forum. This trust is a pretty fragile thing and both people entering into a transaction have to have this trust.

Now the reason for this rant, I had a trade posting up a couple of months ago and had an individual respond. This individual had only 19 posts, but that didn't bother me. He didn't even have any feedback in GB&U, but with 19 posts that could be understandable. We finally agreed on the details and everything was set until his last e-mail at which time, out of the blue, he stated that since he didn't know me that I would have to send my knife first for him to check out. The first thing I did was to read through his previous posts to try and get a feel for this individual, to see if maybe he had had a problem with someone. The only thing of interest that I found was one post in GB&U that he had responded to where he stated that "the only way to trade was his way which meant both parties sending their knives at the same time."

I'm not saying just blindly trust anyone on the Forums in any kind of a deal no matter what its worth, but d*mn, the person you're dealing with has to trust you as much as you trust them. Check out GB&U, do a little research, ask for references, back out of a deal if you've got a bad feeling, but if over 2 years of dealing on BF's with an extensive list of successful high dollar trades doesn't garner some trust, you shouldn't be dealing on the internet.

Sorry, I waited for awhile before posting this so that I would be over my irritation, but have still found myself ranting a little. By the way, I very nicely and politely informed this individual that I preferred not to complete the deal with him.
 
Steve:

Seems like it should have been you asking for him to ship first. I just completed three deals with brand new guys (RTAK, fullnelson, and Haldir00). All three were referred to my feedback here. All three sent me payment first. I sent all three of them their knives when I received their payment. I gave them all positive feedback to help identify that they are good to deal with, that will help them in the future.

I'm not making excuses for anyone, but when I first started coming here to BF, it was "all greek to me". I asked people to ship stuff to me first, even though I was a brand newbie. That was my ignorance. I didn't pay any attention to the number of posts a person had. Hell, I didn't even know that GB&U existed. I can't think of any names off the top of my head, but all the deals worked out way back then. I have only gotten more cautious lately, especially about new people, because of the slew of bad ones I've seen lately. I think it is fair to ask a new person for payment, with immediate shipment upon receipt of payment. Then I, as an existing member, can help build their reputation here as an honest person.

I can certainly understand your irritation. I would have called it off too. I have gotten alot more confident about asking alot of questions up front and not mincing words on the agreement of a deal. Saves bad feelings down the line. We know you're one of the good ones buddy. BTW, thanks for the Carbon Fiber Police, it's my favorite carry knife!

Leo G. :D
 
Ask anyone who has done deals with me.I ALWAYS ship before I get their money.No big.I am a trusting soul by my nature.I look for the good in people.
Some deals I have had with some have taken awile because they wait to receive funds first.No big, either way with me.
Randy
 
It wouldn't have been a big deal to me either, until I read his post about the only he'd do a deal is if both people shipped at the same time. I do this because I enjoy it, I've got to handle a lot of great knives that I wouldn't be able to if I had to pay cash for each one. So anytime that someone starts taking the enjoyment out of a deal, then screw it I don't need it, and I don't ask for any more than I'm willing to give.
 
The only time I will ask someone to ship it to me first is when it is someone I know has given problems in the past.On a couple of forums when I was new I offered to ship first in my post because I was new.I think it is more than alittle rude for someone that has very few posts and no feedback to ask a long time member to ship first.:grumpy:
 
Ive been buying mostly randalls for 20 years some customs fairly high dollar, alot of guns etc via mail. I always thought the rule was send the money get the knife. Ive made 7 or 8 transactions on bf as Im new, I sent the money or knife and recd my trade or purchase, theres really no other way until you know the person. I remember a randall dealer sending me ten randalls to look at one time He didnto know me from whoever, now thats trust. I bought three and returned the rest. Not many people like that out there any more. blame ebay, the shear volume had to bring out some slugs.
jim
 
"Trust but verify" - Ronald Reagan

I would find it very irritating if I was doing a trade and the other party insisted that I send the knife first. That shows that while he thinks he's above distrust, you most certainly aren't. It is implicit in a trade that both parties ship simultaneously.
 
There's not a lot implicit in any deal or trade. Shipping simultaneously isn't either. You also have to ask what that really means anyway - it can be illusory in more than one way.

The moment you feel serious discomfort in relation to any transaction, whether it concerns a knife or something far more significant, get the hell out, assuming you can.

This fellow was either dopey for whatever reason (including inexperience), or rude, or both. Your irritation is understandable in the circumstances. At the same time, I expect you can appreciate that some 'nursing' might be required for the uninitiated. If you're not prepared to do that, absolutely fair enough. But others will. Hopefully, their generosity of spirit will prove both rewarding and even productive for the process overall.

Bear in mind also, there are any number of ways by which both parties can assure themselves. It can be worked out.
 
IMO, you always send simultaneously. It's just the right thing to do. To do anything other than this imparts distrust. Don't know the fellow you're dealing with? Do a search on him. Ask some of your fellow members if they've dealt with him.

And, when you do have a good deal with someone, post it in GBU. You can never do this too much. Our reputations are all that we have on these boards.

I've been buying, selling, and trading for over 5 years online, and a couple of months ago ran into the first guy ever that didn't do a simultaneous send. I sent him the knife, and only a number of days later did I get an email from him saying that he likes the knife, and is now sending funds. WTF was my reaction. Damn straight it was. I shot him an email expressing befuddlement at this, and never rcv'd a reply. I'll never deal with this chump again. I have probably 3000 posts on BFC with 2 usernames, a highly rated reputation with many established members, and all he had to do was do a search.

TRUST is of the essence when dealing on these boards.

Edited for grammar.
 
Sure trust is of the essence, or you'd be a fool to do a deal. But can you explain please, why you equate simultaneous shipping with trust, so absolutely/rigidly?
 
Originally posted by switched
But can you explain please, why you equate simultaneous shipping with trust, so absolutely/rigidly?
Click to expand...
Absolutely / rigidly? Those are your words, not mine.

Why? You send. I send. Mutual trust. That's how I equate it.
 
I ship simultaneously most of the time and then often before the other person sends money or trade, just me.

I found this quote and thought it was interesting;

Never explain--your friends do not need it
and your enemies will not believe you anyway.
Elbert Hubbard (1856 - 1915)
Click to expand...

G2
 
I'm doing a trade right now and the person I'm dealing with was having doubts about what he wanted, so with no hesitation I sent him all the knives he was interested in and told him that he could make up his mind after handling them and just send me the knives he didn't want back with the knife that I wanted or if he decided that he didn't want any of them to just send them all back. Now, the person I'm doing this with is someone I've traded with before and I have no doubt in my mind what-so-ever that at the very least I'll get my knives back. This is what trust is...but its got to be earned...
 
Just my .02 worth...always ship simultaneously, with Tracking #'s, when trading, and no deal is considered a done deal until both parties express satisfaction with it upon receipt of goods, or after a predetermined ""inspection period". One person has a problem with anything and it can't be worked out, both parties ship goods back, again with Tracking #'s, each paying his own freight. Good, accurate, honest descriptions, preferably with pics, keeps the returns to a minimum, if at all. ;) Laters, Greg
 
Originally posted by BurkStar
This is what trust is...but its got to be earned...
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Most definitely, Steve.

Where a person earns my trust is within the aspect of personal interaction / communication prior to doing physically doing business, i.e., shipping of knife and transfer of funds.

When I shipped and the other "gentleman" refrained from paying until he took delivery? Bad read, and my bad. It'll be verbally covered next time though, if I see fit.
 
I've bought a lot of knives here, and traded a few. Whether I send someone money or a knife, it's the same to me. If we trust each other, we send simultaneously. If we don't trust each other, we shouldn't be doing the deal.

On the other hand, I know it's something of a tradition here that with purchase rather than trade, the money arrives first, then the seller sends the knife. I really don't mind, but I'm personally inclined to ship as soon as I get an acceptance on the deal.
 
Actually Al, that could well be an appropriate quote, just as you say. Maybe even timely also. But not for the reason you think.

I'm not sure that Gary didn't haul that pearl off the bottom of his day calendar, so here's a bit of the background:

Elbert Hubbard is best known for the 1899 essay 'A Message to Garcia', which purported to relate the 'heroic' story of Lt (later Lt-Col) Andrew Rowan in delivering a message to Gen. Garcia Iniguez, the leader of the Cuban rebel forces, during the Spanish-American war.

Despite lauding Rowan to the utmost, the essay had stuff all to do with him really. It's real intent was a heavy-handed admonition to workers to obey authority and to place blind devotion to duty above all else. Business and industry lapped it up, unsurprisingly, and ordered copies for their workers such that it was a huge sellout - eventually translated into 20 languages and reprinted over 100 million times.

Unfortunately though, Hubbard was mistaken in all the relevant particulars. There was no "message in a sealed oilskin pouch" from McKinley. There was just a verbal order from Rowan's Colonel to check out the strength of Garcia's forces and to do what he could to see about their co-operation in the event of war. Far from valiant heroics, one account even claims that Rowan botched his mission so badly he was nearly court-martialed. When the army later instituted the Distinguished Service Cross and Rowan was nominated for it (and received it in 1922), there was the embarassing problem that its official records contained no reference to Rowan's mission.

Yes very interesting indeed Gary. No wonder Hubbard had a set against 'explaining', eh?

There's a bit more of relevance to this thread to be extracted from that history also, don't you think?

The quote per se has no great wisdom in it either really. Just the age-old edict 'Never apologise, never explain', with a bit tacked on at the end which is largely formulaic nonsense, either way.

Anyway returning more directly to the point in issue. Al I'm not your friend, but I'm not your enemy either. OF COURSE those are my words. They are a fair call I think, on the basis of what you've said to this point. You do seem to be rather rigid and absolute about simultaneous shipping and there's a distinct impression you consider that and trust to be entirely synonymous, which isn't the case at all. It isn't clear, but I also think you might be blowing smoke in a certain direction. What are you are saying in response to Steve/BurkStar there exactly? You say you are in 'definite' agreement, yet this is with a proposition at odds with your original contention, which I asked you about. Eh?

I'm NOT saying SS wont be the way to go a lot/most of the time or even a notional starting point, say. I'm also not even pretending to be saying anything THAT remarkable on this one. What I am suggesting is, it's NOT a good idea to be rigid and everything will depend on the circumstances. Talk it through a bit for god's sake, also.

Spare me the silly quote and even sillier backslapping followup, thanks very much.
 
Originally posted by switched
...The quote per se has no great wisdom in it either really. Just the age-old edict 'Never apologise, never explain', with a bit tacked on at the end which is largely formulaic nonsense, either way...
Spare me the silly quote and even sillier backslapping followup, thanks very much.
Click to expand...

Thanks Switched, appreciate the history lesson, but as I had said, I thought it an interesting quote, not something to live by but as you go through life, it does seem that rings true at times, and as you mention, talking through is always a good course if people are at odds but the straining to make a point on deaf ears is tiresome for the speaker and listener both.

Not sure what has you two, (Al and yourself), at odds but you have always seemed to be a rightly sort of person from my reading of your posts, hope you guys work it out...

G2
 
Aargh look fair enough.

Gary I'm never very fond of quotes being presented as if they somehow have the 'entire magic', I must admit. The eyebrow was raised a bit further still, at Al's followup - a tad provocative.

No biggie though. Not really that much at odds either I think, in relation to any of this.

So no worries.

Not sure if you did really, but I found the history quite interesting myself.
 
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