WHATS THE BEST GRIND; FLAT, HOLLOW OR CHISEL OR,ETC.

Cobalt - great thread! Any manufacturer watching can learn a great deal; about what the "astute" enthusiast believes.

Brian, I agree with you on what a "flat grind is". From edge to spine = flat. anything else is really a "modified" flat grind.

If "Strength" is the issue, I would have to "opine" that the "Moran", "Appleweed", "Convex" edge to be the strongest. The Samurai refered to this edge (in about 800 AD) as "Hamaguri-ba". This was the grind that they used on their "Martial Bladecraft" Katanas. Pretty good history there.

For overall "matter separation", flat grind, and for delicate work, hollow (for all of the reasons Joe mentioned).

"best" is often an impossible conclusion. "All different, All good!".
sal
 
I`m a big believer in the flat grind too although I`m starting to like the Moran edge too. Tantos can be flat ground,I just ground one like that today! The only down side I see is that an American tanto ground tip looks broader and not as swoopy on a flat grind. I`ve also made a convex ground tanto,seems to work pretty well. Marcus
 
Wow! This is great. I remember not that long ago, you would be branded a heretic for saying that a flat ground blade was even acceptable, (too thin, too delicate, not tactical enough), much less the BEST grind. How times have changed.

 
Enter the ignorant one.

I have not seen a flat grind on anything other than a puukko.

What most people call a flat grind, I call a modified sabre grind, meaning flat from spine to edge, but with a final, less acute bevel at the edge.
With a sabre grind, one sharpens, grinds or straightens only the edge bevel, whereas with a flat grind, one grinds the entire flat in order to sharpen only the edge.
I think of a true sabre grind as sides parallel from spine to the major, obvious bevel, and then a final, less acute and less obvious bevel for the edge.
By my definition, Mad Dog makes a modified sabre grind, because one does not grind the flats in order to sharpen the edge.

I write this with great fear of ridicule, but how else can I learn?

I think the term hollow gind covers more variations in design than those discussed so far.
For example, my Nighthawk qualifies as a hollow grind, but one could also see it as two convex blades stacked on top of each other, and in cross section like an elongated figure eight with the smaller loop of the eight forming the convex cutting edge.
With this cross section, the Nighthawk has an initial cutting edge that combines strength with minimal frontal area, falling away into the hollow to minimize drag, followed by a larger, supporting spine.
I compare it to the "coke bottle" shape one sees exemplified by the fuselage of transonic aircraft.
This represents one of the many compromises between strength and drag.

Finally, and I say this with all respect for those who know more about this than I, but I put the chisel grind in the same category as Daylight Savings Time.
It benfits only the maker by allowing him to grind one side without a worry to whether the other side matches.
One could put just as acute an edge on a true sabre grind, but it would take more work and any dissymmetry in the two grinds would reveal itself.



 
Ken, I have seen that naming convention used before. However its much more common to use where the primary bevel starts (how close it is to the spine) to seperate sabre/flat than the presence of a secondary bevel.

Anyway, I don't like the full flat grind with no secondard bevel because while they cut like crazy, as you pointed out, you have to sharpen along the full primary bevel thus you are actually reducing the cross section of the knife when you sharpen it (yeah you are doing this as well if you go along a secondard bevel but its not significant in that case). After a couple of years that way you really put wear into the knife and may have weakened it to where it will break at tasks that it could easily have handled before.

Its a cool grind though on small utility knives that you indend to replace as they are easy to sharpen as its trivial to keep the angle constant, and they slice like razors.

-Cliff
 
Yep, here's the convention I normally use:

Flat grind: Grind goes from spine all the way to the edge, then a second bevel is put on for the edge itself.

Sabre grind: Grind starts below the spine (normally around the center of the blade or slightly higher), goes down to the edge, then a second bevel is put on for the edge itself.

Those two terms are pretty much standard. I don't think anyone in this thread used "flat grind" to mean what you thought it did.

When I'm talking about puukkos and the like, where it's ground on both sides from somewhere in the middle of the blade but has no secondary edge bevel, I tend to call it a "Scandanavian single-bevel edge", or any other term that I think might get the point across. "Modified sabre grind" works, as long as you explicitly point out what the modfication is.

Ken, I'm also a little confused about your description of the Nighthawk as a hollow grind, but then later "two convex blades stacked on top of each other." Convex & hollow are opposites -- convex bows outwards, while hollow bows inwards. Am I misunderstanding you?


Joe
jat@cup.hp.com
 
Joe: it confused me and I wrote it.

I meant to distinguish the type of hollow grind one would find on one side of a straight razor, or on both sides of some chef's knives that have a flat grind to within 3/8" of the edge and then a hollow grind (we call this a tomato knife in our house), from a more robust type of hollow grind, such as that on my Nighthawk.

The thinnest, or deepest part of the "hollow" on my Nighthawk occurs at about 5/16" from the edge.
From there it gradually thickens again as it approaches the edge, reaching its thickest point about 3/32" from the edge, and then it tapers to the bevel; in the case of my Nighthawk, a rolled-edge.
When I look at the cross-section from on end, it looks like the hollow forms a tangent at the point 3/32" from the edge, but when I feel it with my fingers, it feels as if it definitely gets thicker at that point, so that from about 5/32" to the edge it makes a convex shape, meaning it bows out before it goes back in.
If I had calipers, I could measure the thickness at different points instead of giving you my impression, but I think I've described it accurately.

So the knife has a 1/4" spine, a hollow, and then it thickens to about 1/16" just before getting to the edge.
The hollow seems deeper at the root of the blade and shallower towards the point.

I would like to see Buck's dimensional drawings.
I could have a non-typical Nighthawk.

Anyway, if you draw a figure eight, very elongated, about 1 and 1/4" tall, with one loop only 5/16" tall and the other 15/16"tall; and if you make the smaller loop about 1/16" wide and the taller loop 1/4" wide, you will have a crude approximation of what the cross section of my Nighthawk looks like to me.

If you have access to a Nighthawk, pinch it in the hollow between your finger and thumb with the edge towards your palm.
Pull the knife away from your palm so your pinching thumb and finger slide over the edge.
Did you feel it get thicker just before the edge?
I'd like to know.



 
Gotcha Ken.

I don't need a Nighthawk to check what you're saying. It is a feature of many hollow-ground knives, *especially* factory hollow-ground knives, for the arc to start curving outwards again just before the edge.

In theory, this provides a little more strength for the edge. In practice, I feel this gives you the worst of all worlds, the weakness of a hollow-ground blade with the performance of a thicker-ground blade. I tend to grind that thick part right off the first time I sharpen, it increases performance a lot.. 'course, it will make the edge a bit weaker, too.

Joe
jat@cup.hp.com
 
I read some replies to this and found the responses very insightful. There was a mention of Kevin McClung a.k.a MAD DOG, so I went over to his website to read the article as suggested.

Here is a quote from the website located at http://www.northlink.com/~maddog/articles/grind.htm

"Japanese swords are flat ground, and renowned for their cutting ability. Other flat ground historical successes include the Viking Sax, the Roman Gladius, the Falchion, the Spanish Navaja, the Scottish dirk and Skean dubh, the Mamaluke sword, the Indian Talwar, the Arab Shamshir, etc. As you can see, people who take their cutlery seriously have a marked preference for flat ground blades."

I wish to point out a very important fact. Japanese swords have a cross sectional geometry that actually resembles a Moran Edge or Cannel Grind more than a Flat Grind. In essence, it's not flat. Rather, it's convex.

This is why many antique Japanese swords have been destroyed by us Americans in the name of sharpening. By enforcing a flat grind bevel edge on a convex-edged cross sectional geometry, we are basically altering the shape of the Japanese sword from its historic nature, thereby damaging it, and ruining its collector desirability and its intrinsic historic value.

A slight change of subject: I've seen a lot of Japanese swords end up in Gun Shows in very pitiful condition. They've usually been given the belt grinder treatment for rust removal, etc. Unfortunately, the heat build up from a belt grinder for the purposes of "polishing", "rust removal", or "sharpening" will ruin the differential hardness and temper of a Japanese sword blade.

Another note that Mr. McClung made:

""The last entrant in both popularity and priority of manufacture are the convex or axe ground blades. Like the chisel grind, the axe grind is called an axe grind with good reason. It simply works best in axes, hatchets and big chopping tools. A number of early broad swords were axe ground double edged jobs. The quality of the steel available dictated a very robust edge geometry to avoid serious damage to the blade. As steel quality improved, more swords were produced with a flat grind, often with a fuller (groove) down the middle. The fuller had two functions. It lightened the blade, making it easier to handle, and stiffened it by increasing the surface area. This is the same reason modern match rifle barrels are fluted."

I also find this statement somewhat inaccurate. First off, I'd like to state that I am not saying that Japanese sword was the best in existence, etc. The Japanese sword (or "nihon-to") did feature a convex edge, and it was a weapon whose primary purpose was cutting. (Historically speaking, it's point is not an inelegant "reinforced chisel point for piercing" as a lot of marketing literature claim).

The Japanese were able to take a very limited steel source (iron bearing sand known as "tamahagane") and forge and produce a differentially hardened sword. It was not "razor" sharp like a hollow grind. Conversely, the Convex Edge reinforced the edge and increased edge retention and stability. However, the cutting ability of the katana was more dependent upon the ability of the swordsman rather than the ability of the sword - hence the emphasis in Iaido and Iaijutsu on proper cutting technique.

Another point is that some historical European swords were found to actually *not* have flat grinds but with a slight convex edge. Again, historically accurate combat is not necessarily the edge-against-edge blows we see on TV or in movies. However, the convex edge has a better chance of survival than the flat grind. Further, the flat grind has a better chance of survival than the hollow grind.

Other than that, I find Mr. McClung's article interesting and insightful.

[This message has been edited by WarAngel (edited 28 January 1999).]
 
Joe Talmdge: do you really think the type of hollow grind we have discussed here represents the "worst of all worlds"?

I should probably let that go, but then I'd have little to differentiate me from the rest of the knife groupies who oooh and aaah at the knee of listening.

You (maybe not you, personally) will probably edit this out, but I want to thank you for reminding me why I left this forum the first time.

In my totally unhumble opinion, most people make the flat grind you describe because they can make more knives with less investment in time, equipment, setup and mental concentration than they could if they had to grind a complex, sophisticated and symmetrical cross-section into the "flat" of a blade.

And I think you already know that, yourself.

The type of hollow grind exemplified by the Nighthawk allows a strong edge, followed by a low drag "fall-away", backed-up by a strong and purposely heavy spine.

I don't think you have ever ground away the thick portion of the edge of a hollow ground blade as you described in your last post on this thread.
And that doesn't mean I think of you as a liar, but I do think you wrote that for effect and to support the "validity" of the flat-ground super-hyped blades made and sold by the people who profit from this forum, and whose interests this forum truly serves.

If you want to have a dialogue with me on this subject, please refer to my e-mail address because, given the recent history of "editing" I don't expect this post to survive the first reading, and so I don't intend to return to this forum.

You don't need to lock this thread or edit it to protect everyone from a flame, because I won't fuel it any further.
However, you can edit this out if the shoe fits too well for your own comfort.

I have always enjoyed your posts, Joe, and I have appreciated your FAQ's, but I now suspect the integrity of all.

Good Bye and God Bless.

 
Ken --

Hope you're not really gone, because I think you're acting hastily here. Let me respond to your points. I'm going to do this completely dispassionately -- there's no hard feelings I assure you, but you made some strong claims...

Let me respond to the "You don't need to lock this thread or edit it" first. I am not the moderator of this forum, or any forum on www.bladeforums.com. I can't lock or edit anything. Furthermore, on the forums I do moderate, I have never locked or removed a thread, except to remove some duplicate posts. The administrators and moderators of Bladeforums do not at all seem too quick to edit or lock threads, so I'm confused as to why you think this one would get locked.

Okay, let's get on to knives.

You are claiming that makers go to a flat grind because it's easy to do, and that by contrast the Nighthawk-style hollow-grind-that-widens-at-the-edge is difficult. You've got that backwards. The full flat grind is by far the most time-consuming and expensive grind, because it removes the most metal. In a production environment, the hollow grind is easy to do, that's one reason why the format became so popular for a while.

Next, your assessment of the Nighthawk's edge... The hollow grind's biggest advantage is the thin edge you can get with it. When you thicken the grind dramatically just before the edge, you do not get that thin-edge advantage *at all*. You get a thick edge that could have been produced by any other method. However, you do have the hollow grind's main drawback -- that it INCREASES IN THICKNESS NONLINEARLY, and is therefore not the best format for deep edge penetration on slices. In short, you have the hollow grind's disadvantage but have negated its advantage. Does "worst of all worlds" still seem unfair to you?

Now onto your claim that my statement about grinding off the thick-edge part was merely rhetorical flourish. Not only have I done that, but so have many other people. Ken, have you heard of _The Razor Edge Book of Sharpening_? In it, the author specifically endorses doing this procedure to hollow grinds. If you don't believe me, do you at least believe Juranitch did it?

But I can't even understand why you'd doubt me on this. I've been a ranting loon on my preference for very thin edges, and I've spoken often about how I reprofile the edges on many of the knives I get. Why is it difficult to believe I would make this kind of thick edge thinner?

Lastly, although I resent you questioning my integrity in your last sentence, I'd like to invite you to think carefully about your decision. I'm honestly stumped as to what even set off this level of emotion in you.

Joe
jat@cup.hp.com
 
Ken - good gracious, man! What on earth in Joe's reply could *possibly* have set you off like that? You will leave the forums, disparaging Joe's reputation in the process because a fellow member disagrees with you on the strength of a particular edge geometry?!?!

Also, does the fact that I'm reletively new to knife collecting, and appreciate the opinions of those who have more experience than I do mean that I'm a "groupie?"

Ken - please tell me that the NyQuil had kicked into high gear and you weren't thinking clearly.

Kelly
 
I'm confused. Have I learned the rules wrong in 28 years?
If the blade is ground on a round wheel (contact wheel) it's a hollow ground blade. If it's ground on a flat disc or a flat platten (no matter where the grind starts and stops) it's a flat grind. If it's ground on a slack belt it's convex.
Appleseed edges are usually flat ground on a platen and the edge itself is put on with a slack belt.
Can't get no simpler than that, no matter how you intrepret it.
Man, it's good to be back.
 
Joe you stupid no nothing,
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just kidding.

I agree with you on some stuff like that "hollow grind" on his Nighthawk is the "worst of all worlds". But not on everything, you keep saying the hollow grind is weak also that it only good for shallow cuts(well maybe not keep on saying but you did say it)anyway you refer people to the book "The Razor Edge Book of Sharpening". Have you read it? He hollow grinds his ax. If it was that weak would he do that? Weak is a relative term.

He has sold me on the hollow grind. I hollow grind most things. All my axes are hollow ground and the chips fly out better with the hollow grind.

P.S I belive you when you say you ground your knife. I have.

We don't agree on everything and I don't want to kill you or nothing hope the feeling is mutual.
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------------------
-Greg
 
greg: No, I don't want to kill, but I'm considering maiming you
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Seriously, though, I do like the hollow grind, particularly when it does not bulge out just in front of the edge. The hollow grind's forte is cutting. Taking a hollow grind and thickening the edge so that it's worse than a sabre grind continues to make no sense to me -- and to you too, obviously.

I had forgotten Juranitch hollow-ground his axe! Just looked it up and saw it in there. If you've got killer-tough steel and don't hollow grind too deeply, it must work. I would have guessed that a hollow grind would've been too weak no matter what -- I mean, I flat grind my axe, but many people outright convex grind it for even thicker edges.

Joe
jat@cup.hp.com
 
Kit, I've noticed knife makers, writers, and buyers all use these terms inconsistently. I just try to keep them consistent within my own writing, and define my terms up front when there's any doubt. That's why I sometimes use the term "full flat grind", even though when I use the term "flat grind" it always implies all the way to the spine. Some people agree with you that "flat grind" means the bevel is flat no matter where it starts, but we've had some threads on this before and most people wanted to reserve "flat grind" for full flat grinds only.

I don't know that anyone is using the terms wrong per se, I just think that the terms are used so sloppily that there's no fixed definition anymore.


Joe
jat@cup.hp.com
 
I leave for a bit and war breaks out. I guess i'll add my comments here also:

Matt H.--First of all, I ask about tanto, because I happen to think it is one of the best blade types out there and If I was limited to just one knife it would most definitelly be a modified tanto. Second, Lets say you have a full flat grind knife and a modified flat grind knife with the grind starting at the midway point of the width of the blade. The angle of the grind on either knife is less than the edge bevel angle, thus, there is no difference to the edge. Additionally the modified flat grind or saber grind, whatever you want to call it, is stronger if used as a prybar because it has more material along it's width(simple statics). So I prefer a modified flat grind.

Joe T.--See my comments above as they apply to you also.

Memnoch--Let's see what happens when the rust get's under the hard chrome through the edge after it's been sharpenned many times. Try getting it out.

Sal G.--I like both the flat and semi flat ground blade styles that you use in your knives. they all come nice and sharp too.

Ken Cox--Chill out buddy. Everyones opinions count and I don't think that you would ever be shut out for saying youre peace if not done so in a vulgar manner. Oh, and I'm not a groupie and neither are most in here. Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean that you have to think they are grouppies. Could it ever be that maybe a hollow ground edge may not be so good in a utility type knife. Also, the nighthawk has a better shaped handle than 99% of the manufactured knives out there, so have fun with it.

Kit Carson--If I give you an extra $100 can you possibly move me up on your list? haha. I agree with you definitions of grinds.

GregJ--Not all of us can resharpen and reshape as well as juranitch. If he damages the edge, he quickly fixes it. I believe that it is better to have flat or modified flat than hollow on a big heavy knife but I don't mind hollow ground on a folder.

That's my 2 bucks worth.
 
Cobalt: replying to:

"For example, the Timberline Specwar that Jim March [says?] is a chisel grind but has more metal through out the width of the blade than the Mad Dog, so it should be more of a prybar than the MD, shouldn't it. The MD will be thinner all the way down(assuming both are the same thickness of course). Correct me if I'm wrong."

This is exactly true, except that Mad Dog's steel is so vastly better it more than makes up the difference. Chisel grinding is a cheap technique seldom seen in the same knife as a world-class steel. If you held a BIG gun to Kevin's head and forced him to grind you a chisel Mad Dog two things would happen:

1) You'd have the toughest "sharpened prybar" ever made and

2) You better keep lookin' over your shoulder 'cuz he's gonna hunt ya down and kill ya for it!
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WarAngel: you are *absolutely* right about Japanese swords and even knives being convex edges. I dunno what Kevin was thinking when he wrote that, honestly. I've got a Katana dated so far to at least 1864, it's no question a rolled convex edge all the way up to the fattest point.

Jim March
 
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