What's the composition of Sandvik 14C28N?

3Guardsmen said:
Maybe he was just taking you and Jerker, the Sandvik rep, at your word?:confused: Are you implying he shouldn't?:rolleyes:
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LOL, wow 3G, you certainly have proven over time that you love to bust Thomas's balls. Your bias continues to overshadow your reasoning. I don't know why you feel the constant need to give him a hard time, but I'm sure it's quite justified in your own mind.

Thanks for the thoughtul posts.
 
Hard to debate a topic when the subject has become other people.
This is the General Knife Discussion. Please return to the appropriate topic.
Further trolling will earn infraction points all around and this thread will be closed.
 
jonnymac44 said:
LOL, wow 3G, you certainly have proven over time that you love to bust Thomas's balls. Your bias continues to overshadow your reasoning. I don't know why you feel the constant need to give him a hard time, but I'm sure it's quite justified in your own mind.

Thanks for the thoughtul posts.
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Another attempt at derailment, but I'll play.

How is providing information that Thomas himself had previously provided, when he requested it from another member, and questioning why he did so, "busting balls?" If that's what you consider "busting balls," I feel sorry for ya.
 
jonnymac44 said:
LOL, wow 3G, you certainly have proven over time that you love to bust Thomas's balls. Your bias continues to overshadow your reasoning. I don't know why you feel the constant need to give him a hard time, but I'm sure it's quite justified in your own mind.

Thanks for the thoughtul posts.
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Kind of harm to claim objectivity when you've got "KERSHAW MAFIA" in your signature.
 
3Guardsmen and pedicabdriver, go back and read my post # 44.
(My toaster is warming up.)
 
3Guardsmen said:
Does 14C28N have improved corrosion resistance over 13C26, or does it not?
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Hmmm, if I just say yes, and don't back it up with our internal test findings, will that be enough these days?

Brutus013 said:
Thomas W may have misconstrued his thoughts when he asked for that evidence. What I figured as the reason for that response was to say corrosion resistance is improved, but it is not the only thing improved. Asking for evidence does not necessarily point to the person believing the opposite of what was said.

Then again, he may have expressed his thoughts in a 100% accurate, concise way. Iunno.
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My point was to say that really, how would the OP know for sure anything when comparing both steels. He's searching for info, and yet making broad general statements of knowledge at the same time. There are a lot of variables that play a part with corrosion resistance and both steels. The OP states he knows corrosion resistance is better in 14C28N, I'm just saying, how did you come to know this for sure?

If you notice, there are more US production offerings in Sandvik steel(s) recently. We've done the exhaustive testing with 13C26 and 14C28N. Kai USA has put in time, and invested in the steel. I'll say it wasn't easy, but it was all worth it IMO. With our experience and relationship with Sandvik, who would know better than us? (Ok there are a few, those Thomas's are pretty on top of it). In this competitive marketplace, I'll let our competition do their own homework rather than post it all here for them. Hopefully you understand.

Esav Benyamin said:
Thomas W, Troll Magnet :D

(Thomas, you know they never learn.)
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Maybe it's just me still learning this rep thing?

Larrin said:
I think we should change our definition of "super steel." 13C26 and 14C28N are only counted out if your definition of "super steel" means high wear resistance. There seem to be different definitions of super steel for carbon steels and stainless steels. With carbon steels, low wear resistance grades like 52100 are praised as super, where with stainless steels it's not super unless it has at least as much wear resistance as S30V. 13C26 and 14C28N are much closer in their properties to the "super" carbon steels: high toughness, ease of sharpening, edge stability, etc. with the benefits of corrosion resistance as well.

Edit: And for my two cents, 14C28N is definitely not a downgrade. If I was smart enough to design a steel for their customer base and manufacturing process, 14C28N would have been it.
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In all honesty, I've never read a post from Larrin I didn't like.
 
Does 14C28N have increased corrosion resistance over 13C26, as it is and was claimed to have. In my experience so far, which I posted about, it does not. While I don't consider it to be an upgrade to 13C26 thus far, I certainly wouldn't say it is a downgrade. I would have thought, with a little less C and a little more Ch, the corrosion resistance in 14C28N would have been better than what I experienced. As far as everyday cutting goes, I haven't noticed a difference between 13C26 and 14C28N.

Regards,
3G
 
3Guardsmen said:
Does 14C28N have increased corrosion resistance over 13C26, as it is and was claimed to have. In my experience so far, which I posted about, it does not. While I don't consider it to be an upgrade to 13C26 thus far, I certainly wouldn't say it is a downgrade. I would have thought, with a little less C and a little more Ch, the corrosion resistance in 14C28N would have been better than what I experienced. As far as everyday cutting goes, I haven't noticed a difference between 13C26 and 14C28N.

Regards,
3G
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Then you have all the info/answers on the steel you need 3G. You and a few others have beat our BB finish/Sandvik/corrosion to a pulp, and I'll continue to look for more of the same in the future. If you don't see performance differences, then in your place in the sun, they don't exist. For others it's quite the opposite.
 
3Guardsmen said:
Does 14C28N have improved corrosion resistance over 13C26, or does it not?
Thomas W said:
Hmmm, if I just say yes, and don't back it up with our internal test findings, will that be enough these days?
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I asked that question when I thought you were genuinely asking Cotdt for evidence to support the claim of 14C28N having improved corrosion resistance over 13C26. I didn't realize that you were not 'really' asking him for evidence.
Thomas W said:
The OP states he knows corrosion resistance is better in 14C28N, I'm just saying, how did you come to know this for sure?
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cotdt said:
Sure 14C28N may be more corrosion resistant
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Seemed more to me like an assumption based on a claim, but who knows.
 
Thomas W said:
Then you have all the info/answers on the steel you need 3G. You and a few others have beat our BB finish/Sandvik/corrosion to a pulp, and I'll continue to look for more of the same in the future. If you don't see performance differences, then in your place in the sun, they don't exist. For others it's quite the opposite.
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I can't argue with a response like that!

Edit: Posts are crossing.
 
If you look at the thermodynamic calculations for Fe-Cr-C phase diagrams, there's basically no way 14C28N could have lower corrosion resistance than 13C26. http://www.calphad.com/martensitic_stainless_steel_for_knives_part_1.html Nitrogen has similar characteristics to carbon, but was used because it is slow to form carbides, though it contributes about equally with carbon to hardness. Carbides steal chromium and lower corrosion resistance, so nitrogen can give "free" hardness without lowering corrosion resistance. If you look at the 1100C phase diagram, comparing a steel with 0.65%C and 13% Cr to one with 0.62%C and 14% Cr, the 13C26 is going to have around 12% Cr in solution, where 14C28N is going to be around 13%. Even if all of the nitrogen forms carbides (unlikely), it will have at least 0.5% more chromium in solution. Looking at the 1000C phase diagram, the difference increases, which I only bring up because Kershaw more likely heat treats between those two temperatures. Thermodynamic calculations aren't 100% the same as the final real-world product, but the program used for these calculations (Thermo-calc) is also based on real world data and is highly accurate for simple steels like Fe-Cr-C. If I was able to show comparisons with a Fe-Cr-C-N phase diagram I would, but unfortunately I don't know enough thermo to run the program, and UNR doesn't have the steel databases for it.

If you saw corrosion more quickly with a 14C28N, it would have to be either due to a lower austenitizing temperature (unlikely since they are harder than the 13C26 version), contamination with something else (carbon steel particles), a different finish, or you just subjected it to a different environment.

Edit: I promise when I started writing this I thought it would be simple. Also see Verhoeven's book.
 
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Earlier someone said something about 14C28N having greater carbide volume than 13C26. I wish it did, but it doesn't.

14C28N heat treated at 1065C:


14C28N heat treated at 1080C:


13C26 heat treated at an unkown temperature:
 
Larrin, thanks for the posts, very neutral and educated. How refreshing after 3 pages of blah.

I even learned something! :)
 
nozh2002 said:
And INFI is

C=0.5
Va=0.36
Cr=8.25
Co=0.95
Ni=0.74
Mo=1.3
N=0.11

Not really too close. But we may hope it will be great steel also.

Other Nitrogen steel is xn15-TN

C=0.4
Cr=15.5
Mo=2
V=0.3
N=0.2

Known for extreme rust resistance...

What HRC will it be?
Looking forward to see this steel!

Thanks, Vassili.
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Don't forget S30V, which is said to have 0.1% nitrogen. However, this was left out of the Crucible datasheets.
 
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