whats the deal w/ damascus steel?

M

MIKELLY71

Joined
Jun 27, 2002
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what are the advantages of this steel?
DOES IT SERVE A SUPERIOR FUNCTION i.e. HOLD AN ADGE BETTER, LIGHTER? ECT....
OR IS IT MORE FOR LOOKS?
 
I guess it's more for the looks now. Perhaps from 17th or 18th century due to advancements in metalurgy homogenous steels become superrior to damascus. As far as I understand, damascus technology was a mechanical way to get a steel with needed qualities by mixing available steels. Wootz serves the same purpose. Check what I just found: http://www.vikingsword.com/ethforum/messages/1005.html
 
Some makers are forging stainless damascus--combining stainless super steels for the desired effect. I also read that it was very expensive. Big D1
 
I'm a damascus steel fan but I have also been asking the same question: does "damascus" still have any performance advantages or is it all looks, tradition and technique? There are many different types of blades that are called "damascus" ranging from traditional japanese folded and "san mai", true wootz, "rediscovered" wootz [Mr. Pendray et al], all the way up to and including stainless and powdered! Some damascus probably has unimpressive performance [ especially the nickel varieties] However, the qualities touted for wootz and traditional japanese blades are unequalled in some aspects of performance, but noone is likely to test such knives to their limits given the rarity and expense involved [except maybe for cutting falling silk :)] How would they stand up to a blade made out of modern supersteel like CPM 3V or Infi? Great question. I'd love to have the heavyweights out there weigh in on this one. Just don't do the testing with any of mine :D
 
Yes and no. Some damascus is made for high performance. Some is made for appearance. Generally, the more exotic looking damascus products are steel forge welded with nickel. This is for appearance. Some damascus products like those made by some custom knife makers use different steels that harden differently with heat treating combining one that may have better edge retention and another that may have better toughness as an example. These damascus blades exhibit some of the characteristics of both steels and perform quite well. Damasteel, a stainless damascus product performs quite well in my opinion. It doesn't look as exotic as a mix of carbon steel and nickel but it makes an effective blade.

I sell (and use) some japanese knives that use Japanese white steel (hard carbon steel) sandwiched between layers of soft iron in the San Mai fashion. The white steel layer would be too thin to make a good blade but gets quite sharp and holds the edge for a long time. The iron outer layers give the blade heft, balance and toughness. You may not want to call it damascus but I think you get the idea.

I too like damascus blades. I carry them often and use them. They are all over the board in terms of performance. So the answer is maybe or could be or yes and no. Take care.
 
At the Scagel Exposition and Hammer-In that concluded this past weekend in MI the first and fourth place blades in the cutting comp. were damascus blades. Mastersmiths Kevin Cashen and Tim Foster took first and took fourth respectively. These blades were pushed very hard with absolutely no edge damage. Good makers will make good blades. m
 
I was waiting for an expert to chime in here before I put my two cents into the discussion. Thanks Mike.

Here's my take on the damascus issue. Damascus can be as good or as bad as the maker, steels involved, number of times at welding heat, heat treatment, etc... Too many variables to make a blanket statement such as, "damascus is good or bad" or "damascus is only for show".

Properly made and heat treated damascus is going to perform with the best carbon steels out there. Improperly made damascus, or damascus with too high of a content of pure nickel is not going to perform as well.

A properly made and heat treated damascus blade using a mix of O1 and L6 or 1084 and 15N20 makes one heck of a performing blade that is so much more visually appealing than a simple carbon steel blade. Bottom line; know what is in the damascus mix and know who made and heat treated the blade.
 
Hello Mike,
Would you happen to know what the damascus mix on Kevin and Tim's knives were??? I was just wondering because I am going to be using a mix of my 52100 and some 15N20 I got from John Fitch for the one at Mesquite and Washington. If it does alright, I will take the MS test with it after the cutting contest (hopefully) Sunday. I had read of one of the knifemakers that took his MS test using 1084 and 15N20 and it passed. What did they have to cut with their knives this time?? No hidden rebar in the soft stuff :).
See you at Mesquite.
 
Ray, unless Kevin changed his mix(unlikely), then he is using O1/L6 as a mix.
 
Thanks, Danbo.
I am always curious when the performance of a blade is shown to be an excellent cutting machine :). I imagine that they did the 2x4 and rope. That seems to be standard fare to start with. 2x4 first and rope last. I would have loved to have gone but with school just starting, it is almost impossible to get away. June 1, 2004 is the day that I will be able to do a little more scheduling :).
 
Don't know about the stainless steels too much but I have heard a lot of good things about the quality and performance of damasteel. I think a lot of it depends on the reputation of the maker'(s) and what use it has been put through. They are said to close to maintenance free as far as rusting and such. I always liked to put a drop of oil on the hinge pin anyway, stainless or not.
From what I can understand on making it, it is something that I would not be able to do with the equipment I have. For a Gents or ladies knife, I can see no problems with using it.
 
Ray, Danbo; how ya'll doing? I think Tim's blade was 1084/15N20, but I am not absolutly positive. Most of the damascus makers that I know personally use that mix. All high carbon, good contrast, cuts real well. My masters blade was that mix. The contest was pretty much the norm. 2x4 chop to start; these were the hardest 2x4's I've ever used. Winning time was like 20 someodd seconds. Next was a business card cut. The MI humidity played havoc on this part. Real wimpy flexible cards. Next was the empty vertical can chop. Last was a new twist. On this one you had to chop a real hard 2x2 into then take your old tired arm and cut the rope. Time stopped when the rope hit the ground. We had a good time. All of you guys who have not watched or participated in one of these need to do so.Pretty impressive to see guys whale the hell out of a blade, very few are disquilified for edge faults. Oh, by the way there is supposed to be a cutting competition at the Spirit of Steel Show in Mesquite TX weekend of the 14th. ABS test blade diminsions are the rule. Must have a thong in the handle and at least one visible pin thru the tang; no exceptions. mike
 
Mike, I am doing just fine, thank you. I'm alive, my family is healthy and I have a room full of custom knives. :)

As for the damascus topic, I own and use one of Kevin Cashen's mini bowies with about a 4.5" long O1/L6 80 layer twist damascus blade, and I can tell you that knife is a cuttin sumbeotch! I will try to post a picture of this knife soon. People try to buy it off of my belt if I bring it to a knife show, so it must be fairly nice.
 
I have several Case peanuts with both carbon steel damascus and one with stainless damascus Just my opinion but for looks carbon steel damascus is more attractive. The stainless damascus has very minor tonal difference that is tough to see the color variations in.
 
To add to what "andr" said; Damascus Steel was produced as a slab in a process that left the outside of the slab very high in carbon and the inside of the slab low in carbon. The two types were mechanically mixed, i.e. hammer welded to form useful tools and weapons.

I think the term Damascus is slowly being replaced by the term Pattern Welded to show the distinction of using modern high quality steels.
 
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