Whats the deal with chopping blades

[numberthree]

I certainly didn't mean the 'penis replacement' comment to be condescending; in fact, it was meant to be a light hearted poke at the large knife carriers, of which I am one. I carry a big knife rather than an axe for reasons of convenience, weight, and personal preference, even though I know the axe to be better at pure chopping. I also carry a SAK, a locking folder, and sometimes even a couple of more knives. The big knife doesn't get used all that much but when I need it, I'm glad I brought it.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

fishbulb :

There is a big differance between brush clearing and wood chopping. Using a machete to clear a trail is a world away from using a knife to chop a log.

While I would agree there are significant differences, there is a lot of carry over in technique, as well as the demands it places on a knife. The biggest difference being that for brush cutting the knife ideally goes right through the vegetation on one cut, whereas on thicker wood you build for multiple cuts.

... a large contingent seems to favor the "slightly sharpened prybar" approach to outdoor cutlery.

Yes, this is true, there are a lot of knives that are built this way and they don't cut very well at all, and I would agree that those are not the types of knives I would prefer to carry.

I have never broken a knife, ever a folder, as a result of using it in conjunction with a baton. It can be pretty rough on batons, though. I would like somebody to further explain how this is significantly more damaging to a knife than other common uses.

With a folder, you are pressing hard on the end of the handle with one hand and at the same time giving it an impact on the blade. This produces a very strong torque across the lock. If you note that many companies like REKAT consider a simple spine whack test to be abusive and capable of breaking the locks, then actually using a baton is such a manner is obviously out. For fixed blades, you are not going to crack the knife in half, however the edge will take more damage from batoning than a knife built for actual chopping simply because it isn't as fluid an action. You could argue that hit placement would be more optimal, so your chopping skill is a factor as well.

I have never had to do a whole lot of chopping

If you have not had to do it, that answers the question, obviously you don't need it, experience is a very good teacher.

what are some other common outdoor uses for big blades?

One of the fastest shelters you can build is what is called (around here) a "bough cave". You simply pile a large number of heavy branches over a natural frame (usually a fallen tree). The larger branches will serve as the frame, and you fill in the gaps with smaller ones. With a larger knife you can do this much faster and it will keep out the wind and the snow and the to a lesser extent the rain.

None of the above is meant to argue against the utility of small highly efficient knives, I always carry at least one, currently it is a modified MEUK, in addition to a leatherman and a SAK, plus there is always a decent saw, large blade and axe in my car.

-Cliff

 

[psy-ops]

I am of the large chopper persuasion.

pure efficiency, I have been in a "survival" situation and needed to make a shelter to keep from gettting hypothermia, I had a 6" srk by all standards a great survival knife. I had to hack off several pines boughs about 1"-1 1/2" thick. really torqued my wrist loosened the handle on my knife(which cs fixed no problem) but the point is in a survival situation you need things done quickly without wasting energy and putting you at risk.

a large knife gets it done fast and neat. It also is an awesome self defense tool against animals and humans.

I just see it as part of my gear. I also love machete style knife martial arts which I find enjoyable training in woods. but I am weird that way!

I have nothing against people with smaller knives but I do think they should build an adequate shelter to see their stance through. I recently built a lean-to it was oversized but it was in my backyard, I used only my hatchet and I will say the labor was strenuous. I wuld not be happy or comfortable with a 4-6" blade. I think in a survival situation comfort is what you want.


good luck

 

[chad234]

I think that the 9" class of blades is a poor choice in general, it can do many things, but none of them as well as a more specialized blade. If you increase the blade length to 14" you get a major leap in chopping power as a result of the added mass and leverage.
My ideal outdoors setup is comprised of tools which are for the most part optimzed for their prespective tasks:

A GB Scandanavian Forest Axe: A 3/4 size axe that is fairly easy to carry, yet packs a lot of power. In my experience there is no comparison between the chopping power of a small axe vs. a large knife. There is not great loss in diversity of utility with the axe, because a good shaft, like the Gransfors Bruks allows you to choke up on the handle for finer tasks or where more control is required. The GB Small Forest axe (which is slightly smaller) is ideal in this regard.

A Victorinox Fireman's SAK: A million uses, the saw is great. There is jsut too much to write about SAKs to do it here.

A thin 4-5" fixed blade: This is my favorite size knife. The Marble's Gamegetter 2001 shown is near ideal. It is thin (1/8" stock) with a comfortable grip, a very high performance grind (full convex) is easy to carry. The 52100 steel has an optimal balance of strength and tougness. IT is very fined grained and takes a very keen edge.

A Mora: The best wood carving knife I have ever used. Again, there is too much to write about the mora to do it here. It may seem redundant to have to similar sized fixed blades, but as Hoodoo as written elsewhere, the mora is so light that it is silly not to carry at least one. The mora is used for wood work and has also been used many times for baton work.


Cliff,

Also, a blade that you are going to chop with under its own power, is going to under far less strain than one you are going to beat on with a stick, so it can have a lower profile and thus in general cut better.

I disagree that baton work is categoricaly more stressfull to a knife than chopping, my view is actually diameterically oppposed. I find Baton work to be less abusive (with the caveat: When done right!)
Here is why:
First the edge is supported by the wood you are cutting, so the is more of a compression stress rather than an impact impulse. Also because the edge is supported there is less chance of lateral stress on the edge, a main cause of metal failure.

For fixed blades, you are not going to crack the knife in half, however the edge will take more damage from batoning than a knife built for actual chopping simply because it isn't as fluid an action.

I would argue that the motion used in baton work is near identical to that used when chopping and is every bit as fluid a motion.
In addition the force of the impact is spread out over the spine instead of the edge as well as a portion being absorbed by the cugel (thus the indentations in the wood of the baton)

The Mora knife shown in the above pic has been used to baton through several small trees. It has a very thin tang, yet has stood up to substantial baton work. Jimbo has done quite a bit of baton work with the Mora (and knows a thing or two about chopping with an axe too ), maybe he'll stop by and give us his opinion.

Also the size of the baton will influence the stress level placed on the knife (a wider cugel spreads out the impact area)

I have seen edge damage and failure from chopping, but never from baton work.

In general I guess that my experience most closely matches that of Buzzbait in regards to what works best in the outdoors, but we are in a very similar eco-systems. (He's in NY and I'm in MI IIRC)

Take care,
Chad

 

[GREENJACKET]

Cutting blocks to make an igloo takes a certain style and size of knife. We don't all need to build igloos

There are a mirriad of knife designs to achieve any task, but the difficulty is choosing one that works for you. Most trouble is found in the utility/wildeness/survival market at present. Thats the fashion at the moment. Next millennium it will be garden pruners and kitchen knives that rave.

The blade media way has been in the past to rubishes anything that breaks. Torture tests well beyond normal limits doesn't help the argument, though they do make fun reading. What we end up with are manufacturers protecting their image by overbuilding knives. Metalugy has its limits, even when huge strides have been made over the last fifteen years or so (fantastic knife steels at relatively remarkably low cost). But you have to do something pretty dumb to break a high end knife.

Follow the forum for a while and you notice certain trends. The interesting stuff is when designs don't work as well as the hype that goes with them. We are starting to get much more educated and questioning. The British F/S Commando dagger of WWII was issued as a survival knife We all now know it was all but useless other than sticking into people.

For example, I think the Busse Battle Mistress is one heck of a good design. However, I have real reservations about the rest of the range. They are just out of proportion for me. But then survival knives are specialist tools. What you can get away with, choose to take, has a lot to do with your survival skills and environment you find yourself. Most situations have a minimum requirement if you are not going to make your position even more precarious.

Another great difference is if you are traveling through wilderness or living in it. Traveling through, lightness of carry and an efficient cutting edge may be all that is required. Living in wilderness, you need to build perminent shelter and supply youself with large quantities of fuel so your tools had better be tougher and choppers. These are huge differences in needs as borne out by the choise of tools.

If I don't need to chop I like my knives slim and tapered. If I don't know whats needed, and, as I am usually a traveler, I usually go for something tough but biased towards cutting (I'll think my way around a problem). If I need to chop lots of hard stuff then its has to be on the tough side. If I'm living from a vehicle then I'll take the lot

You can dress out a deer with a SAK. When there is plenty of fuel on the ground there is not a whole lot of chopping to be done. If you need to chop quite a bit then an axe, or Battle Mistress, or something on the brutish side is needed. Its your decision. If you get it wrong, thats why you have got a brain. Whatever you do there will be risk Just don't lumber youself with stuff you don't need.

 

[BoyNhisDog]

It really depends on your specific activities. If you want to chop a lot of free hanging thin branches then a hatchet won't work as well as a good quick 10" blade such as the Ontario SP-5. I chopped an extremely hardwood 6" tree down with mine recently. With a reprofile it is as sharp as a Sebenza.

When hiking without a full backpacking setup, this is not a bad blade to have with you. I can make do with a four or five inch blade with a baton and with a full backpack that may be the one I take depending on my route. A good 4" Frosts Mora will weigh 3.5oz and will handle some big chores.

One of my favorite tools on a long range dayhike is the Granfors Bruks Mini hatchet. It is a pleasure to hold and use and it will chop down to dry wood easily and efficiantly. It is just under 12oz. I love this sensuous tool.

I never leave home without a good small knife in any case. If I am traveling through desert wasteland then the small knife is all that I will take. Anything that can be burned there is small enough to be broken.

If I am going to altitude then a big knife or the Mini hatchet is very likely to find it's way into my kit. These bigger tools can be extremely useful. No you don't need them all the time for every senario.

 

[GREENJACKET]

The last was a bit of a woffle.

If there is thick snow on the ground you may have to cut the tops off trees for bedding and fuel. Scandinavians take an axe.

Cliff Stamps brush shelter is fast to make if you have a reasonably long stout knife.

When I soldiered I carried the CR Project because it was as much fixed blade knife I personally wanted to carry. I had a bivi bag and basha.

Now I don't need to carry more than a five inch hunter, as anything more is carried in a vehicle. I prefer to stay in hostels or hotels.

Chainsaws are great.

 

[chad234]

Yes the Shelter that Cliff describes is the type that I have spent several nights in. It is also known as a debris hut. I have made them with a SAK, A large knife and an axe even a small shovel.
The most work comes from gathering all the leaves and such to place on top to insulate. I have found that having a tarp, either as a ground cloth or as a cover over the frame really helps to make the shelter comfortable.

BTW the Mini hatchet that BAHDog posted is an excellent tool in it's own right.

Chad

 

[psy-ops]

boy and his dog, that picture is practically pornographic!

it should be banned on this site as too lewd and seductive, makes me want to put that on my credit card right now.


be careful

 

[BoyNhisDog]

This is where I found the GB Mini. Lot's more edged porno here.

Cutsforth Knives, Machetes and Hatchets

Daren treated me real, real good. He is a small business that has that personal touch. When I go for the Small Forest Axe I will take my business back to him.

These axes and hatchets are forged by Swedish craftsmen the old world way. I can whittle with my Mini. The Hudson Bay style head lets you choke up to get a good hold behind the head.

I have always liked mini hatchets but this is the very best I have ever used in my life. These things have a cult following for a good reason.

 

[sgtmike88]

Chris, et al;

I, too, was seduced by Glen's pics of his GB Mini. My call to Daren Cutsforth was pleasant and his deal and service, top shelf. I recieved my Mini, a twin of Glen's, AND a Martindale #2 Golok within two days of the order. Both were extremely sharp on delivery, however, the GB will shave hair easily. The pair was used today doing various chopping chores and both performed admirably. The Golok, for me, seems to be THE choice over both the large chopper type blade and the machete - it performs both tasks very nicely and it will replace my SP-5 on my BOB, until such time as I can con Glen or someone into reprofiling the SP. (I seem to be reprofiling challenged.) Anyway, the Golok has enough spine to allow for batoning, yet remains thin enough to be an effective machete. The GB Mini is an effective limber and chopper, as well as being able to do a myriad of other chores efficiently - like skinning, pounding tent stakes, etc. For my future woodland treks; it's the mini GB, my BM Nim Cub and BM folder du jour, all accompanied by either a SAK Pioneer, Soldier, or Rucksack. The Golok will be handy in the truck or in camp, too.

Mike

 

[Evolute]

A Johnson and fishbulb both mentioned that they'd prefer a firearm to a large knife for protection from animals.

Don't worry, guys, I meant that a knife's self-defense utility is important to me in addition to a gun, not instead of a gun. That's why I described the self-defense abilities of my knife as being "not primary".

I also want to make clear that guns are not a self-protection cure-all from wild animal attacks. There are even situations--and they're not that uncommon--when a typical handgun is less effective than a large knife in defense from animal attacks.

Even if you unload an entire clip into an attacking feral dog, it is likely to keep attacking for 30 seconds or more, until it bleeds to death. A knife like my Busse Battle Mistress could (admittedly, on a very good hit) decapitate the dog in one blow, or chop off it's snout, or sever it's spine, or do some similar type of catastrophic damage which would bring the struggle to an immediate end.

Large bears can be quite resistant to firearms. A large grizzly can have a thick enough skull for bullets to bounce off, and a tough enough hide and thick enouch fat layer to stop bullets before they reach critical organs. (Read Stephen Herrero's Bear Attacks:Their Causes and Avoidance, or Larry Kaniut's Alaska Bear Tales.) I just read John Pezzenti's Shooting Bears: Adventures of A Wildlife Photographer. He recounts in that book one occasion where he defensively shot a 500 pound female grizzly six times, which then continued to stalk him all night and the next day (until they escaped; there was no sign that the bear was about to die from the wounds). Larry Kaniut recounts a dead grizzly which was found to have six bullets lodged in it's face, from years before it's death and partially healed over.

A large, heavy blade, used to stab, slash, and chop at the upper chest, head and neck of a large bear could be more effective than a handgun at reaching organs, cutting major arteries and nerves, or similar.

I hope I never have to employ deadly force against an attacking animal. If I do, I hope to end the situation with a firearm before the animal closes the distance. If it comes to "hand to paw" combat (VERY undesirable), I think that large knives have their place alongside guns.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

I just got a mini hatchet (Busse Paul's Hatchet), and it seems like it is going to prove very useful. Small hatchets are great for the outdoors.

 

[psy-ops]

thanks sgtmike and boy,

I plan on ordering a golok from cutsforth in the not too distant future(fingers crossed)

I have been playing with the tramontina bolo and really enjoying it. I made my own leather sheath it has been one hell of a yard clearer.

the golok and jungle knife really catch my eye!

thanks

guys

 

[ArchAngel]

Well for what it is worth. I am of the large woods blade variety. I tend to love my Khukuris. One of the khuks I own is a YCS by HI. It has proven to be my favorite woods package. The main khukuri is a little over 17" oal with double fullers. It is NOT a sharpened prybar. It actually has a wonderfully thin edge. It chops like a much larger or should I say thicker blade. The fullers lighten it up quite a bit. With this main blade comes two karda (smaller knives) one over 8"oal, the other over 6"oal IIRC. There is also an awl. With this package, all in one sheath, I have been able to do most any chore I have but my mind to. I am no Cliff Stamp, and have never tested my stuff as well or fully as he is capable of doing, but for my woods uses this has served me well. Whatever works for the individual, right? I just have a great time using the stuff that I do own.

 

[chad234]

Evolute,
If you are ever faced with a bear attack and are defending yourself with your battle mistress, make sure you stick it in the ground several times to dull it real well. That way it will hurt less when the bear sticks it up your a$$

I have been attacked by dogs, not fun. I have had to shoot dogs, and dispatch wounded animals. My duty 9mm did the trick quite well.

For bears I would want a 12 Gauge.

A knife is a very poor substitute.

There were some very good pics of Andy Prisco fighting a bear with a Busse knife posted a while back, if you find them they are worth while.

But I did hear that Davy Crockett killed several bears with his bowie knife, and Paul Bunyon could probably take one out with his axe. I did read the story of the Buck 110 bear killer, I wou;dn't want to try to repeat it.


Take care,
Chad

 

[chad234]

I just wanted to add my name to the list of satisfied Cutsforth customers. Great service. Daren is my choice for all my Gransfors and Martindale needs, I'll be happy when he expands his product line.

Chad

 

[Buzzbait]

Wow!!! I just popped a woodie at seeing that Granfors!!! Talk about gorgeous!!!

 

[chad234]

Yeah Buzz, Glen is kind of a Bastid like that, posting that knife porn, putting impure thoughts of money spending in your head.....
That was the one that drove me over the edge too. Hoodoo is just as bad, watch out for that rascal too!!!!

 

[BoyNhisDog]

Mike started it you guys. I think along with the formentioned including Chad that he should bear his share of the blame. I mean the thread he started ran more than 120 posts and it's still active! I was just being real innocent when I posted that photo.

 

[Buzzbait]

It's too bad that I'm flat broke after buying the Satin Jack. If I were to order a hatchet tonight, my wife would put my Busse through my hollow head.

Hmmm... Where can I hide a hatchet where she won't find it......