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Whats the deal with chopping blades
- Thread starter fishbulb
- Start date
Cliff Stamp
BANNED
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- Oct 5, 1998
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- 17,562
Chad :
First off we should clarify that as you noted the biggest problem with chopping is lateral loads (the other is inclusions). Even cheap steels are much harder than woods and thus can't be directly compressed. If you take a thin edged cheap knife, you can vice it through even very hard woods. However your techinque is never going to be this ideal, and thus you are always looking to minimize the frequency and magnitude of the side impacts by ideally putting a load directly behind the edge of the knife. When chopping by swinging a blade, the force is naturally being directed along a line center to the edge of the knife, as the blade is in your hand presented to the wood in this fashion, and thus minimizing the potential for lateral loads. A critical factor is to keep the angle of the swing constant. You don't start off flat and then angle at the last minute, this will lead to "waves", as the blade "scoops" out the wood.
Anyway, when batoning, the only way that this will result in the same senario is if you hit the spine exactly perpendicular, right at the middle of the center of the cut, and at the same time, press down on the handle the right amount (you do this before the impact unless you have superhuman reflexes) exactly inline with the force vector resulting from the impact of the baton. If you are off on either one of these, the blade will twist in the wood, either up/down, rotate, or a combination of both. To avoid this to the same extent as a natural chop requires far more skill and co-ordination. Now you could argue, when batoning you use less force, but you can swing with less force as well (less actually as noted below). To be clear, you can never avoid such problems even with perfect techique, as wood can break badly due to inconsistent makeup, so you always have to overbuild edges to some extent.
All this is true, but you can lower the force as well just by decreasing your swing speed. The core issue though is how the edge reacts to a given amount of force, which is necessary for a given amount of penetration. Since the effort of the baton swing is damped as you noted, this means that you have to hit harder (which generally means less control) , in order for a specific amount of force to go into the wood. On a natural swing, all the energy will be focused on the edge and thus give maximum concentration of effort, and thus will minimize the swing effort necessary to achieve a specific level of penetration.
Yes, this is true, but this is only a significant concern if you are using a very hard baton which could actaully impact or fracture the steel. For wooden batons, this isn't the case. Awhile ago I was curious if I could, in an extreme case, break off a knife by hitting it with a hardwood dowel (basswood), across the spine. I was using around two foot lengths of dowel, and much wider swings than I would when batoning, and had a friend hold the knife. The knife was just some cheap fixed blade, and all I did was keep breaking the dowel off. Your biggest problem would be if you missed and whacked the tip hard, especially sideways.
So have I, but this is because chopping knives are generally far heavier, and get used for far more difficult tasks. For example take a decent sized blade (14" or so) and sweep it down the side of a small tree shearing off the small dead branches. The edge can easily hit one of the branches sideways, when batoning this isn't a factor. Using a baton for felling is a very useful skill though, as it greatly increased the functional abilities of the knife. It is something that can and should be practiced often.
I agree on the ~14" blade length, that is generally what I prefer as well. Nice kit also, I would replace the axe with a folding saw and large blade, wood type and personal preference.
Greenjacket :
In general I find that it is the manufacturers who cause this problem, by promoting very harsh testing on their knives. I have on occasion used knives to do very difficult tasks, and in doing so broken a few of them. In many of these cases it was looking at claims made by makers, just do some searches and you can find makers promoting their knives by tests on concrete blocks, steel posts, rebar etc. . However, in general this isn't true of the industry as a whole, just the tactical part of it. If you look at the other side, and find blades actually meant to cut things, you will get very different knives, which are promoted by their cutting ability, which can also be hyped, but usually not as excessive.
-Cliff
First off we should clarify that as you noted the biggest problem with chopping is lateral loads (the other is inclusions). Even cheap steels are much harder than woods and thus can't be directly compressed. If you take a thin edged cheap knife, you can vice it through even very hard woods. However your techinque is never going to be this ideal, and thus you are always looking to minimize the frequency and magnitude of the side impacts by ideally putting a load directly behind the edge of the knife. When chopping by swinging a blade, the force is naturally being directed along a line center to the edge of the knife, as the blade is in your hand presented to the wood in this fashion, and thus minimizing the potential for lateral loads. A critical factor is to keep the angle of the swing constant. You don't start off flat and then angle at the last minute, this will lead to "waves", as the blade "scoops" out the wood.
Anyway, when batoning, the only way that this will result in the same senario is if you hit the spine exactly perpendicular, right at the middle of the center of the cut, and at the same time, press down on the handle the right amount (you do this before the impact unless you have superhuman reflexes) exactly inline with the force vector resulting from the impact of the baton. If you are off on either one of these, the blade will twist in the wood, either up/down, rotate, or a combination of both. To avoid this to the same extent as a natural chop requires far more skill and co-ordination. Now you could argue, when batoning you use less force, but you can swing with less force as well (less actually as noted below). To be clear, you can never avoid such problems even with perfect techique, as wood can break badly due to inconsistent makeup, so you always have to overbuild edges to some extent.
All this is true, but you can lower the force as well just by decreasing your swing speed. The core issue though is how the edge reacts to a given amount of force, which is necessary for a given amount of penetration. Since the effort of the baton swing is damped as you noted, this means that you have to hit harder (which generally means less control) , in order for a specific amount of force to go into the wood. On a natural swing, all the energy will be focused on the edge and thus give maximum concentration of effort, and thus will minimize the swing effort necessary to achieve a specific level of penetration.
Yes, this is true, but this is only a significant concern if you are using a very hard baton which could actaully impact or fracture the steel. For wooden batons, this isn't the case. Awhile ago I was curious if I could, in an extreme case, break off a knife by hitting it with a hardwood dowel (basswood), across the spine. I was using around two foot lengths of dowel, and much wider swings than I would when batoning, and had a friend hold the knife. The knife was just some cheap fixed blade, and all I did was keep breaking the dowel off. Your biggest problem would be if you missed and whacked the tip hard, especially sideways.
So have I, but this is because chopping knives are generally far heavier, and get used for far more difficult tasks. For example take a decent sized blade (14" or so) and sweep it down the side of a small tree shearing off the small dead branches. The edge can easily hit one of the branches sideways, when batoning this isn't a factor. Using a baton for felling is a very useful skill though, as it greatly increased the functional abilities of the knife. It is something that can and should be practiced often.
I agree on the ~14" blade length, that is generally what I prefer as well. Nice kit also, I would replace the axe with a folding saw and large blade, wood type and personal preference.
Greenjacket :
In general I find that it is the manufacturers who cause this problem, by promoting very harsh testing on their knives. I have on occasion used knives to do very difficult tasks, and in doing so broken a few of them. In many of these cases it was looking at claims made by makers, just do some searches and you can find makers promoting their knives by tests on concrete blocks, steel posts, rebar etc. . However, in general this isn't true of the industry as a whole, just the tactical part of it. If you look at the other side, and find blades actually meant to cut things, you will get very different knives, which are promoted by their cutting ability, which can also be hyped, but usually not as excessive.
-Cliff
Cliff,
Proper technique is an issue for both chopping and baton work. For baton work the handle press down is not an issue that I have seen, When the baton is coming down in my right hand I am pressing down on the knife handle with my left. Each baton stroke that I use is a two step deal, I tap the spine to seat the edge into the wood, then I make my power stroke (the whack). I then tap and whack, tap and wack, tap and whack. (Has kind of a groove to it)
Because the edge is seated into the wood, if there is any lateral stress it will be spread out across a large portion of the bevel, not just the very edge as it would in chopping. The deeper the knife penetrates into the wood, the more the edge is supported, once you reach the stage where the entire bevel (in a single edge bevel knife like a mora, which is my primary batoning knife) any lateral load would be abosorbed by at least 1/16" of metal instead of being imparted on just the edge as during chopping.
I whacked my thumb with the baton (I was distracted by my dog IIRC) while batoning a Rinaldi TTKK through a sapling (about 2"), that sucked. It is funny to see knifemakers vice a knife through a mild steel bolt as a measure of its chopping toughness because as you indicated the stress from that is much different (compression) than in chopping (impact impulses), but for baton work it is not as far removed because of the fact that the edge is supported by the material being cut in both cases (but I am not saying they are directly comparable.)
Proper technique is an issue for both chopping and baton work. For baton work the handle press down is not an issue that I have seen, When the baton is coming down in my right hand I am pressing down on the knife handle with my left. Each baton stroke that I use is a two step deal, I tap the spine to seat the edge into the wood, then I make my power stroke (the whack). I then tap and whack, tap and wack, tap and whack. (Has kind of a groove to it)
Because the edge is seated into the wood, if there is any lateral stress it will be spread out across a large portion of the bevel, not just the very edge as it would in chopping. The deeper the knife penetrates into the wood, the more the edge is supported, once you reach the stage where the entire bevel (in a single edge bevel knife like a mora, which is my primary batoning knife) any lateral load would be abosorbed by at least 1/16" of metal instead of being imparted on just the edge as during chopping.
I whacked my thumb with the baton (I was distracted by my dog IIRC) while batoning a Rinaldi TTKK through a sapling (about 2"), that sucked. It is funny to see knifemakers vice a knife through a mild steel bolt as a measure of its chopping toughness because as you indicated the stress from that is much different (compression) than in chopping (impact impulses), but for baton work it is not as far removed because of the fact that the edge is supported by the material being cut in both cases (but I am not saying they are directly comparable.)
but this is because chopping knives are generally far heavier, and get used for far more difficult tasksYes they are built to take those forces as well. When batoning you can avoid many knots that you could not when chopping (by selecting where you place the knife before you start) and you don't need to remove as much wood, no wide notching for example. With a batoning knife you may attack the wood from different sides (I think Jimbo refers to this as siide notching), but it is more effective than trying to use the same size knife to chop with.
In general, to me, batoning class knives are thin and light (like a mora), that could not be used to chop very well at all, with batoning you can get the wood down and split. These knives are thin (far thinner than 1/8" more like 1/16")with very thin edges. I have never damaged a knife from baton work.
If I needed to remove those dead small hard limbs while batoning, I'd sweep down the trunk with the cugel, not very romantic, but effective. You have used the spine of your chopping blades for the same effect.
As should chopping
Take care,
Chad
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2000
- Messages
- 1,363
Chad 234, when we were younger and smaller those bashas took no time at all. Now its a good hours work unless you want to leave your feet out 
ArchAngel, I'm not that efficient with my tools either. There is nothing better than having a whacking good time. I take the knife/tool that I fancy that morning and then work out how to do the job when there
Chad and Cliff, my batons keep on breaking up
You need to baton cut to get a baton to baton cut with. Now say that fast.
Cliff you are right, there are only a few manufacturers that play the one upmanship game. I'm a bit narrow and harsh sometimes. Sadly, just like hunting stories, knife gossip sticks a little bit quick at times. My writing/think process is very questionable when I stay up on the forum too late. I had hoped no one actually read it
ArchAngel, I'm not that efficient with my tools either. There is nothing better than having a whacking good time. I take the knife/tool that I fancy that morning and then work out how to do the job when there
Chad and Cliff, my batons keep on breaking up
You need to baton cut to get a baton to baton cut with. Now say that fast.Cliff you are right, there are only a few manufacturers that play the one upmanship game. I'm a bit narrow and harsh sometimes. Sadly, just like hunting stories, knife gossip sticks a little bit quick at times. My writing/think process is very questionable when I stay up on the forum too late. I had hoped no one actually read it
Cliff Stamp
BANNED
- Joined
- Oct 5, 1998
- Messages
- 17,562
Chad :
This is key, like everything, wonderful tools are great to have, but if you don't know how to use them well they are not going to be able to do much on their own. You might want to try attaching some of the smaller knives to handles and using them as brush axes and seeing how it compares to batoning directly. You do make a solid point about avoid knots and such with baton work, but if are willing to inspect the wood this closely, you can drastically reduce similar problems when chopping.
Yes, beating the limbs off can work well, if they are dried and hard enough, and usually the ones with enough spring to resist this are easily cut. It is one of the very few advantages to having a sharp spine on a knife, fire starting and scraping being the others.
Greenjacket, around here there is a lot of dead wood which you can use as a decent first baton which will enable you to cut a pretty decent one. Most of the tougher knives would allow you to use a rock to start. You need a decent piece of wood though, Pine and the like are far too soft, especially with thinner knives as they get chewed apart almost as fast as the tree you are cutting down.
-Cliff
This is key, like everything, wonderful tools are great to have, but if you don't know how to use them well they are not going to be able to do much on their own. You might want to try attaching some of the smaller knives to handles and using them as brush axes and seeing how it compares to batoning directly. You do make a solid point about avoid knots and such with baton work, but if are willing to inspect the wood this closely, you can drastically reduce similar problems when chopping.
Yes, beating the limbs off can work well, if they are dried and hard enough, and usually the ones with enough spring to resist this are easily cut. It is one of the very few advantages to having a sharp spine on a knife, fire starting and scraping being the others.
Greenjacket, around here there is a lot of dead wood which you can use as a decent first baton which will enable you to cut a pretty decent one. Most of the tougher knives would allow you to use a rock to start. You need a decent piece of wood though, Pine and the like are far too soft, especially with thinner knives as they get chewed apart almost as fast as the tree you are cutting down.
-Cliff
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2000
- Messages
- 1,363
Cliff, over here in Britain the weather is temperate, mild, and anything on the ground breaks up quite quickly. Few really bad storms so little green material finds its way to the ground. You can find a good stick but never when you need it. I very rarely ever chisel cut with a batton. Just chip,chip,chip away.
Be prepared the boy scouts motto. Never was a boy scout but its true. Why would you only carry a knife if you may have to chop timber or kill bears. Minimalist hikers and campers are too often dragged out by rescue personnel. I don't think carrying a large knife, machete or large calibre handgun is gong to make much difference in the weight stakes. Lets face it how heavy is such an item. Use the right tools for the job. That should take the wonder out deciding if a knife is capable of chopping.
- Joined
- Jun 23, 1999
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- 1,209
Now now! First of all, there are a lot more minimalists these days than the "go into the wilderness with naught but a knife" types, so that might explain most of it. More over, the one's that get carried out are almost always inexperienced, or tried to push their experience into too extreme an environment. It is likely that these folks would have to be carried out even if they had a good chopping knife!
Lastly, there are vanishingly few places here in the U.S. where you can go into the woods anywhere (apart from your own property) and just hack out a camp site including shelter which requires felling a tree! At least not legally! A wise camper will practice techniques with equipment that makes sense for the environment in which he/she will actually be! I've done 6 day pack trips covering 40+ miles going up and down, and a few pounds can make a very big difference. Although I have batoned plenty of knives through wood lengthwise (to split), I have to admit I've never had to cut a limb crosswise this way as I usually carry a small saw (in my SAK for one thing) that covers this application. I will, however, try to practice this technique a little as I see it can come in handy, when you don't have either saw or chopping knife or hand ax.