Actually quite a large number of SAKs do lock. All of the Victorinox 111mm knives lock (some are liner locks, some are pin(?) locks). All of the Wenger 120mm knives lock and a number of their 85mm knives lock (the newer ones have an "S" in the name, an EVO S 17 locks, but an EVO 17 does not, other wise they are the same knife).
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Whats the deal with locking Liners???
- Thread starter DaveReb
- Start date
Actually quite a large number of SAKs do lock. All of the Victorinox 111mm knives lock (some are liner locks, some are pin(?) locks). All of the Wenger 120mm knives lock and a number of their 85mm knives lock (the newer ones have an "S" in the name, an EVO S 17 locks, but an EVO 17 does not, other wise they are the same knife).
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Thanks for bringing this up, Mike, I didn't mean to imply that the Military's lock was inadequate, but rather was using the Military as an example of a well-regarded, reliable liner lock that's been around for a while, despite not using a massively thick liner. Again, design, materials and execution ... and beyond that, all things being equal, a thicker lock bar/liner should be even better.
On the ENER-G2 the cut-out in the liner lock is about .030" thick. IMO this doesn't seriously weaken the lock due to the cut-out being only about 1/3" long and at the very back of the lock portion of the liner.
I agree 100% about torsion being the primary concern, in addition to spine whacks I test all locking folders by clamping the blade of the open knife in a vise and aggressively torquing the lock and pivot area while alternately applying upward, downward and lateral pressure. I consider any discernible disengagement of the lock unacceptable, as is any noticeable feeling of play when applying upward or downward pressure on the handle/blade while testing. Some framelocks and liner locks will see the lock engage further when doing this, but IMO the best will retain the same degree of lock engagement through the whole test.
These new, heavily-built Kershaw liner locks are quite sturdy, and my Junkyard Dog II has shown no signs of lock wear or any problems whatsoever during 6 months of regular carry and use including some fairly hard work. I consider them satisfactory for self-defense ... assuming you've run out of ammo, and forgot to carry a panabas, of course.
I'm waiting for some ingenious soul to develop a PIN LOCK. A hole drilled thru both scales, liners and blade.
With a small PIN hanging from a chain on the butt of the handle that you insert THROUGH the entire thing and can then claim the bygawd STRONGEST lock ever.
:jerkit:
The pin of course could be drilled for a cotter.
With a small PIN hanging from a chain on the butt of the handle that you insert THROUGH the entire thing and can then claim the bygawd STRONGEST lock ever.
:jerkit:
The pin of course could be drilled for a cotter.
THANKS, huugh. It's my favorite blade style, too.
Wotinhell IS that thing?
:barf:
http://xtremeknives.com/
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I wonder what knife Spaceman Spiff carries to fend off vicious aliens and breathless superlatives?
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Thanks for bringing this up, Mike, I didn't mean to imply that the Military's lock was inadequate, but rather was using the Military as an example of a well-regarded, reliable liner lock that's been around for a while, despite not using a massively thick liner. Again, design, materials and execution ... and beyond that, all things being equal, a thicker lock bar/liner should be even better.
On the ENER-G2 the cut-out in the liner lock is about .030" thick. IMO this doesn't seriously weaken the lock due to the cut-out being only about 1/3" long and at the very back of the lock portion of the liner.
I agree 100% about torsion being the primary concern, in addition to spine whacks I test all locking folders by clamping the blade of the open knife in a vise and aggressively torquing the lock and pivot area while alternately applying upward, downward and lateral pressure. I consider any discernible disengagement of the lock unacceptable, as is any noticeable feeling of play when applying upward or downward pressure on the handle/blade while testing. Some framelocks and liner locks will see the lock engage further when doing this, but IMO the best will retain the same degree of lock engagement through the whole test.
These new, heavily-built Kershaw liner locks are quite sturdy, and my Junkyard Dog II has shown no signs of lock wear or any problems whatsoever during 6 months of regular carry and use including some fairly hard work. I consider them satisfactory for self-defense ... assuming you've run out of ammo, and forgot to carry a panabas, of course.
Sounds like you have some real good testing to make sure your liner locks are up to snuff. Since I moved I haven't set up my vice yet, I need to get it set up for some good torque testing of some folder locks. Every Kershaw liner lock I have handled has engaged good with no blade play or spine tap problems. I have handled the JYD II and it definately gave the impression of being quite the strong and secure lock. I wish the rear of the handle was a tad larger for my paws, but overall it is appears to be a good value with a thinner edge than my Cyclone. I am currently handling a passaround Zero Tolerance 0200, and it has a .082" liner lock with a .046" or so cutout. It seems extremely stout, though the overall heft of the knife adds to that feeling. As for self defense, yes, I would much rather be using one of my Glocks than a folder to protect myself, but you run what you brung, right? I guess my drag racing cliche's (before I was married with a kid I actually got to have fun with my fast cars, all now long gone) are coming out in my knife talk now.
Mike
Thanks for bringing this up, Mike, I didn't mean to imply that the Military's lock was inadequate, but rather was using the Military as an example of a well-regarded, reliable liner lock that's been around for a while, despite not using a massively thick liner. Again, design, materials and execution ... and beyond that, all things being equal, a thicker lock bar/liner should be even better.
On the ENER-G2 the cut-out in the liner lock is about .030" thick. IMO this doesn't seriously weaken the lock due to the cut-out being only about 1/3" long and at the very back of the lock portion of the liner.
I agree 100% about torsion being the primary concern, in addition to spine whacks I test all locking folders by clamping the blade of the open knife in a vise and aggressively torquing the lock and pivot area while alternately applying upward, downward and lateral pressure. I consider any discernible disengagement of the lock unacceptable, as is any noticeable feeling of play when applying upward or downward pressure on the handle/blade while testing. Some framelocks and liner locks will see the lock engage further when doing this, but IMO the best will retain the same degree of lock engagement through the whole test.
These new, heavily-built Kershaw liner locks are quite sturdy, and my Junkyard Dog II has shown no signs of lock wear or any problems whatsoever during 6 months of regular carry and use including some fairly hard work. I consider them satisfactory for self-defense ... assuming you've run out of ammo, and forgot to carry a panabas, of course.
really all ya gotta do is open the knife and LIGHTLT slap it on your palm or the floor and see if the liner is slipping.
no need to clamp in a vise/etc, if nothing else ya are gonna mar the finish up & imho its simply not neccesary.
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balisong
if I want to carry a slippie, I carry a slippie and keep in mind there's no lock. If I want to carry a locking knife, I carry something other than a linerlock, and then I can keep in mind the expectation of the lock to hold under different grips and uses.
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Sounds like guns and cars might have made us both appreciate the value of really knowing your equipment before you put it to use. No different with knives, IMO.
Haven't tried one of the ZT's yet, probably too large for my taste for an EDC but they do look very stout. I suppose it isn't a knife you'd want to have 'Kreined' either. Be curious to know what the edge geometry is on that one, BTW, and how thick it is behind the edge.
Lots of opinions on this, many think spine whack tests are meaningless. IMO spine whack test is best done with a brisk rap with something hard like a plastic mallet or wooden handle.
I consider the torque tests more important than spine whack -- at least when it's my fingers that will be at risk, or the fingers of someone I might lend my knife to. Soft jaws, and a clean shop towel or two layers of paper towel around the blade, clamp tightly, and there's no harm to the blade at all.
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Thanks for the info, Mike, it definitely sounds like a beast. I certainly know some guys who not only prefer big, burly folders like this, but seem to need that kind of edge for what they do. Personally I take just about all knives down to 12 deg./side or less and rarely have durability problems; Cliff and I had some interesting discussions about this, it's amazing the difference just a degree or two can make in terms of how an edge holds up. IMO 15+ deg./side is only needed if you're cutting steel wire, or maybe heavy copper ... and I can't honestly say that isn't a valid consideration, depending on circumstances.
Neat to see these heavier, well-engineered liner locks coming to market.
Kermit
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I have one problem with liner locks, grip orientation and the chance for the blade to fold through murphys law.
Grab any liner lock blade and the chances are the index finger will wrap into the depression rendering the whole idea useless. Now put some gloves on, thick ones, and see if that problem goes away.
The lock backs are better for me because I tend to grip the knife rather than put pressure through my palm.You may find one better than another it depends largely on the handle thickness the size of the cavity for liner access and also the strength of the liner material.
Theyre a real pain in the ass as far as im concerned. Slipjoints rate higher than Liner Locks and you can probably tell Ive fallen for Spydercos charms. I love my Delica to pieces
Grab any liner lock blade and the chances are the index finger will wrap into the depression rendering the whole idea useless. Now put some gloves on, thick ones, and see if that problem goes away.
The lock backs are better for me because I tend to grip the knife rather than put pressure through my palm.You may find one better than another it depends largely on the handle thickness the size of the cavity for liner access and also the strength of the liner material.
Theyre a real pain in the ass as far as im concerned. Slipjoints rate higher than Liner Locks and you can probably tell Ive fallen for Spydercos charms. I love my Delica to pieces
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I'm with you on the thin geometry, even my HD knives I run a 10/15 profile. Like you said, unless you are cutting metals that geometry has proven plenty durable on quality steels.
Mike
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First a comment and then a question. I've had a benchmade pat crawford leopard cub for at least 15 years used and used it hard, have not purposely tortured it but used it, cleaned deer, ducks, squirrels, cut rope, twine, etc. (used it). It has a liner lock special note there is no relief cut in the liner lock it is the same thickness all the way through. It is as new and the knife has been used and opened more times than I can remember as I have a bad habit of playing with it, (opening it and closing it, nervous habit) and again this thing is just as tight as teh day I bought it. Yes theres some stains on the blade some nics and dents on the aluminum handle but the lock is tight and shows no obvisouly apparent or readily visible signs of physical wear nor does it exhibit any change in function due to wear at the lock. I think if a locking folding knife is well made both materials and workmanship, used properly and maintained well it will easily last one a lifetime (say 50 years) I still have use and carry a slip joint stockman (imperial brand) that was my grandfathers edc the knife is old, the main blade has been sharpened so much it no longer has any belly but has become a wharncliff or sheepsfoot shape when orginally it was a drop point or clip point and its still going strong.
Question, I also have a microtech option II frame lock and there is also no relief cut in the lock, the lock is the same thickness as the handle, so why teh need for the relief cut at all, I've got two knives both teh leopard cub and option II one liner lock one frame lock with no relief cut in them and they work just fine. I have a several highend production folders all of which are framelocks and have a relief cut, why. Since a tool is only as stong as it weakest component part, why not do away with teh relief cut altogether or if it is necessary why not make the relief cut the absolute minium it has to be to insure proper and reliable function???
I personally prefer frame locks and think if the knife is well made in both materials and workmanship, used properly which means for cutting, etc, not prying open a bank vault or trying to stab it through the hood of car, and taking care of it, cleaning, oiling, sharpening, etc. it should easily last one a lifetime of use. Just my humble opinion.
Question, I also have a microtech option II frame lock and there is also no relief cut in the lock, the lock is the same thickness as the handle, so why teh need for the relief cut at all, I've got two knives both teh leopard cub and option II one liner lock one frame lock with no relief cut in them and they work just fine. I have a several highend production folders all of which are framelocks and have a relief cut, why. Since a tool is only as stong as it weakest component part, why not do away with teh relief cut altogether or if it is necessary why not make the relief cut the absolute minium it has to be to insure proper and reliable function???
I personally prefer frame locks and think if the knife is well made in both materials and workmanship, used properly which means for cutting, etc, not prying open a bank vault or trying to stab it through the hood of car, and taking care of it, cleaning, oiling, sharpening, etc. it should easily last one a lifetime of use. Just my humble opinion.
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I've made some experimenting with .080 stock and successfully managed to make a frame lock work but the spring tension strength to release the lock was quite tough on the thumb. Relieving the stress by cutting it thinner helped tremedously and the lock was .060 there and thats all that was needed. The lock also stood up well to vertical (downward) pressure when trying to squeeze the lock.
I found in cutting the locks out that the wider the lock is in back the more tension it will have or resistance I should say when it comes time to release it to close your blade. So a .080 lock thickness can work and you can actually make a liner or frame lock using this stock with no relief cut at all (see the Buck Strider 880 model folder for example) but the lock can't be as wide as a frame lock would be. In other words the bar itself is not cut the same and overall the lock bar is .080 thick but not as wide overall in the up and down width (not thickness). If I could draw you a picture I could show you.
For a frame lock width, which is typically wider on most of them you need at least one area narrowed down a bit to make it function smooth enough to pass for most end line users. .058 to .060 has worked fine for me on all thickness locks regardless of the width. I've done some .065 and even then they can begin to exhibit those tendencies for a little more resistance than most folks would want I think. Also, some made thicker there can have so much tension they can and do actually make the blade sit slightly off center. For a lot of folks this must be no big deal because I get blades with pivots loosened either on purpose or from use and the blades are off center when closed and they do not seem to much care one way or the other.
On other locks and again this is dependent on the size of the knife overall, you can make the lock long, and cut the relief thick like in the Cuda Maxx for example that has very thick .150 thick handle slabs with lock relief cuts down to about .080 but the lock is so long that it makes it work quite well for the end line user because there is ample leverage to move it to release. Hope all this makes sense.
Believe me I've pondered over the idea of why this is done so extremely thin by some companies. With some I can understand but with others??? It makes little sense at all to have a hard use tactical folder with a .125 lock and a lock relief taken all the way down to .033 or even .40 thickness. Even Kershaws assisted openers and flipper style knives have thicker relief areas than this and they purposely thin theirs a bit to make the action smoother and more reliable for the torsion spring. At least they have good reason for their usual .045 or thicker lock relief cuts. Knives like many of Kershaws stainless steel liner and frame locks, the Sebenzas, the A.G. Russell SeaMaster and others that fall into the 'non tactical type' gentlemans upscale folders of the frame lock design have thicker locks than some of these so called hard use ones. Go figure. When I see this I think things like well ok, if this were automobiles why buy a Jeep when I can probably get a limited slip two wheel drive light duty pick up for less money and do all the same things?
Anyway, thats my two cents on this.
STR
I found in cutting the locks out that the wider the lock is in back the more tension it will have or resistance I should say when it comes time to release it to close your blade. So a .080 lock thickness can work and you can actually make a liner or frame lock using this stock with no relief cut at all (see the Buck Strider 880 model folder for example) but the lock can't be as wide as a frame lock would be. In other words the bar itself is not cut the same and overall the lock bar is .080 thick but not as wide overall in the up and down width (not thickness). If I could draw you a picture I could show you.
For a frame lock width, which is typically wider on most of them you need at least one area narrowed down a bit to make it function smooth enough to pass for most end line users. .058 to .060 has worked fine for me on all thickness locks regardless of the width. I've done some .065 and even then they can begin to exhibit those tendencies for a little more resistance than most folks would want I think. Also, some made thicker there can have so much tension they can and do actually make the blade sit slightly off center. For a lot of folks this must be no big deal because I get blades with pivots loosened either on purpose or from use and the blades are off center when closed and they do not seem to much care one way or the other.
On other locks and again this is dependent on the size of the knife overall, you can make the lock long, and cut the relief thick like in the Cuda Maxx for example that has very thick .150 thick handle slabs with lock relief cuts down to about .080 but the lock is so long that it makes it work quite well for the end line user because there is ample leverage to move it to release. Hope all this makes sense.
Believe me I've pondered over the idea of why this is done so extremely thin by some companies. With some I can understand but with others??? It makes little sense at all to have a hard use tactical folder with a .125 lock and a lock relief taken all the way down to .033 or even .40 thickness. Even Kershaws assisted openers and flipper style knives have thicker relief areas than this and they purposely thin theirs a bit to make the action smoother and more reliable for the torsion spring. At least they have good reason for their usual .045 or thicker lock relief cuts. Knives like many of Kershaws stainless steel liner and frame locks, the Sebenzas, the A.G. Russell SeaMaster and others that fall into the 'non tactical type' gentlemans upscale folders of the frame lock design have thicker locks than some of these so called hard use ones. Go figure. When I see this I think things like well ok, if this were automobiles why buy a Jeep when I can probably get a limited slip two wheel drive light duty pick up for less money and do all the same things?
Anyway, thats my two cents on this.
STR
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Oh and one more thing. The thinner the lock relief is the more prone the frame lock will be to hyper extending the lock out the wrong way to where you actually lose spring tension in the lock. If the pocket clip is positioned correctly it can act as a double duty stabalizer and you can see that they do just that on many knives but the draw back is of course that if the clip is removed...well, you risk having to have the lock retensioned.
For example, I can just guarantee you that with my new HD7 by Emerson that if I was one of those guys that didn't like pocket clips and took it off on this knife that the .040 lock relief just makes it that much more likely that I'll hyper extend the lock out the wrong way one day when releasing it. This is compounded by the fact that the lock tends to stick very badly making it so that I have to really push on it with a lot of strength to release it from the contact so all that lateral force would just spring it out all at once if the clip was not there.
A thicker lock relief, while still capable of being hyper extended would in fact make this harder to do though, so once again there is another big ? mark, at least in my mind as to why these makers insist on taking the lock relief so thin on their knives.
Still though it is possible to tension the lock even on a thinner relief cut one like a Strider at .044 to where the release tension is quite strong. The fact that they can hold up says a lot about the shear strength of the titanium for that type vertical stress but the fact of the matter is the question still remains as to why take the relief any lower than you need to to make the folder work well and reliably?
You'll never get much of an answer because frankly I don't think most makers even think about it. They see other experts doing it that way and just figure it must be the best way to do it I guess. I disagree and try to make my own thicker rather than thinner at the relief whenever possible.
STR
For example, I can just guarantee you that with my new HD7 by Emerson that if I was one of those guys that didn't like pocket clips and took it off on this knife that the .040 lock relief just makes it that much more likely that I'll hyper extend the lock out the wrong way one day when releasing it. This is compounded by the fact that the lock tends to stick very badly making it so that I have to really push on it with a lot of strength to release it from the contact so all that lateral force would just spring it out all at once if the clip was not there.
A thicker lock relief, while still capable of being hyper extended would in fact make this harder to do though, so once again there is another big ? mark, at least in my mind as to why these makers insist on taking the lock relief so thin on their knives.
Still though it is possible to tension the lock even on a thinner relief cut one like a Strider at .044 to where the release tension is quite strong. The fact that they can hold up says a lot about the shear strength of the titanium for that type vertical stress but the fact of the matter is the question still remains as to why take the relief any lower than you need to to make the folder work well and reliably?
You'll never get much of an answer because frankly I don't think most makers even think about it. They see other experts doing it that way and just figure it must be the best way to do it I guess. I disagree and try to make my own thicker rather than thinner at the relief whenever possible.
STR
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The thread has been informative. Thanks for all of the info, STR.
I must say, though, it seems that I've got a new thing to worry about with folders every time I read here. Now you're going to have me examining the lock relief on every frame lock I consider purchasing.
Out of curiosity, how thin is the relief on Emerson's production frame locks?
I must say, though, it seems that I've got a new thing to worry about with folders every time I read here. Now you're going to have me examining the lock relief on every frame lock I consider purchasing.
Out of curiosity, how thin is the relief on Emerson's production frame locks?