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What's the Deal with manuf. mixing up 440C/AUS8A?
- Thread starter misque
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Thank you! Perspective.
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Ron -- I have a lot of regard for you personally, and appreciate the head-on dealing with problems that you have demonstrated. I'm really sorry to see you in the apologist position for a decision that was made long before your arrival at SOG.
Looking at the charts, there indeed is very little difference between 440A and AUS6. Again, with hindsight, I don't think it would have been all that difficult to explain to customers how similar the two steels really were.
One thing tends to make me question what you've been told by your superiors -- ATS34. For a long time, 440C was the custom maker's SS. Then 154CM came along and people switched to that, presumably for the hardness achievable with the molybdenum in the steel. But then, the price on the 154CM rose, and the steel became very dirty. So, "everybody" switched to ATS34. A good number of production knives were being made with ATS34 blades at the time in question. Yeah, they may not have been the typical SOG customer, but an awful lot of people had no trouble understanding that the Japanese ATS34 was just about the same as 154CM. I'm pretty sure that Buck was using ATS34 on one of it's relatively inexpensive knife. (Sorry, but can't think of the name of it now.) I've never heard anything about it, but what if AUS6 had a reputation for being less pure than 440A? WOuld SOG still have told its customers it was using 440A?
The potential differences between 440C and AUS8A were more significant, particularly in the area of corrosion resistance. There is a potential 5% swing in the amount of chromium in the mix. I would be willing to wager that there have been an awful lot more threads and posts on these forums complaining about the rusting of AUS8 and AUS8A than for 440C. I know I've read a good # of the former, but don't recall as single one about 440C rusting. If there are any, it cetainly would be no surprise if the complaints were about SOG knives.
That was a risk that SOG took when they made their decision to call their AUS8 knives 440C. They took the risk that a lot of their customers would be unhappy with AUS8A and thinking it was 440C, choose not to buy competitors' knives that used that steel. From my perspective, I think the decision makers at SOG did decide to deceive their customers about their knives that had AUS8A blades.
Also speaking from my perspective, I have 2 knives that have AUS8 steel for the blade. One has the only stainless steel blade I own that has presented serious corrosion problems. The other is brand new, and made by a different company. All but a couple of my knives are SS. I know that I have been leary about buying any more AUS8 because of that corrosion problem. If my knife had been made by SOG, and I had been unhappy with and badmouthing 440C, and now learned that it wasn't that steel at all, but a different one, I know I'd never buy another SOG knife. I know that this revelation will have a bearing on any possible decisions about buying a SOG knife.
Looking at the charts, there indeed is very little difference between 440A and AUS6. Again, with hindsight, I don't think it would have been all that difficult to explain to customers how similar the two steels really were.
One thing tends to make me question what you've been told by your superiors -- ATS34. For a long time, 440C was the custom maker's SS. Then 154CM came along and people switched to that, presumably for the hardness achievable with the molybdenum in the steel. But then, the price on the 154CM rose, and the steel became very dirty. So, "everybody" switched to ATS34. A good number of production knives were being made with ATS34 blades at the time in question. Yeah, they may not have been the typical SOG customer, but an awful lot of people had no trouble understanding that the Japanese ATS34 was just about the same as 154CM. I'm pretty sure that Buck was using ATS34 on one of it's relatively inexpensive knife. (Sorry, but can't think of the name of it now.) I've never heard anything about it, but what if AUS6 had a reputation for being less pure than 440A? WOuld SOG still have told its customers it was using 440A?
The potential differences between 440C and AUS8A were more significant, particularly in the area of corrosion resistance. There is a potential 5% swing in the amount of chromium in the mix. I would be willing to wager that there have been an awful lot more threads and posts on these forums complaining about the rusting of AUS8 and AUS8A than for 440C. I know I've read a good # of the former, but don't recall as single one about 440C rusting. If there are any, it cetainly would be no surprise if the complaints were about SOG knives.
That was a risk that SOG took when they made their decision to call their AUS8 knives 440C. They took the risk that a lot of their customers would be unhappy with AUS8A and thinking it was 440C, choose not to buy competitors' knives that used that steel. From my perspective, I think the decision makers at SOG did decide to deceive their customers about their knives that had AUS8A blades.
Also speaking from my perspective, I have 2 knives that have AUS8 steel for the blade. One has the only stainless steel blade I own that has presented serious corrosion problems. The other is brand new, and made by a different company. All but a couple of my knives are SS. I know that I have been leary about buying any more AUS8 because of that corrosion problem. If my knife had been made by SOG, and I had been unhappy with and badmouthing 440C, and now learned that it wasn't that steel at all, but a different one, I know I'd never buy another SOG knife. I know that this revelation will have a bearing on any possible decisions about buying a SOG knife.
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Bugs,
Your response to this topic was the most sincere and thought out I've read. Your position makes sense (rather than "name calling"), candidly and personally showing the downside to the decision that SOG (or any other manufacturer) made. I can assure you that SOG was not intending to "slip by" a lesser steel (because AUS8 is well respected). But what still remains is the "hit" to your confidence. I would hope that our proactive adjustment will do something to rebuild that confidence.
Thank you for your post!
Your response to this topic was the most sincere and thought out I've read. Your position makes sense (rather than "name calling"), candidly and personally showing the downside to the decision that SOG (or any other manufacturer) made. I can assure you that SOG was not intending to "slip by" a lesser steel (because AUS8 is well respected). But what still remains is the "hit" to your confidence. I would hope that our proactive adjustment will do something to rebuild that confidence.
Thank you for your post!
Cliff Stamp
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Ron :
A lie has three main parts. It must promote false information by action or inaction, it must be deliberate, and the purpose must be so as to deceive. The intent to decieve qualification in the defination is there to exclude such things as jokes and such.
In regards to intentions, I was referring to lies told and the excuse being "it was in their best intentions not to be told the truth", which is what you claim in this case. I should have been clearer on that.
As for this specific example, you acted to as to convince people that they were getting a 440A/C blade when they were in fact buying one from AUS6/8. This is a deception. Now of course if you want to start arguing semantics then you can spread this into the defination of the word decieve, here is one to play with :
You can not further take apart that defination by arguing the meaning of cause, believe and true. The english language is far from clear and different prople will have different options.
As for your claims in the above that my argument stems from a personal bias I have against SOG, I made the same argument in the REKAT thread. A deliberate mislabeling of steels is wrong period. And I would do so again no matter what maker/manufacturer presented such a case.
As for what was done in the past has no bearing on the present, this does not hold if such actions are being defended.
-Cliff
A lie has three main parts. It must promote false information by action or inaction, it must be deliberate, and the purpose must be so as to deceive. The intent to decieve qualification in the defination is there to exclude such things as jokes and such.
In regards to intentions, I was referring to lies told and the excuse being "it was in their best intentions not to be told the truth", which is what you claim in this case. I should have been clearer on that.
As for this specific example, you acted to as to convince people that they were getting a 440A/C blade when they were in fact buying one from AUS6/8. This is a deception. Now of course if you want to start arguing semantics then you can spread this into the defination of the word decieve, here is one to play with :
You can not further take apart that defination by arguing the meaning of cause, believe and true. The english language is far from clear and different prople will have different options.
As for your claims in the above that my argument stems from a personal bias I have against SOG, I made the same argument in the REKAT thread. A deliberate mislabeling of steels is wrong period. And I would do so again no matter what maker/manufacturer presented such a case.
As for what was done in the past has no bearing on the present, this does not hold if such actions are being defended.
-Cliff
not2sharp
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There is no sense in beating a dead horse. Ron has admitted what SOG has done, I am sure there are plenty of others that will never admit doing the same thing.
The question should be what do we intend to do about this from now on.
N2S
The question should be what do we intend to do about this from now on.
N2S
I'd say that some of Ron's critics are really getting carried away. They're more playing semantics, with their rigid dictionary definitions of words, than dealing with the true spirit of the situation. To read some of the remarks here one might think that some enormous, malicious conspiracy to deceive and cheat was commited, rather than the minor misrepresentation that actually occurred. The reasoning of some of the commentators are extreme to the point of being bizarre. Almost like a cult.
Ron's remarks make a lot of sense. I can see some mild criticism of his views, mind you. But some of you people are way overboard.
I have a few SOG knives from the mid-90's that were "lied" about. Now that I know the "truth", I'm melting them down and selling them for scrap. Also, I'm launching a class-action lawsuit to right the terrible "harm" done to me and others. I'm devastated. (JUST KIDDING!)
There are some issues with knives that are worthy of strong words. This is not one of them.
Ron's remarks make a lot of sense. I can see some mild criticism of his views, mind you. But some of you people are way overboard.
I have a few SOG knives from the mid-90's that were "lied" about. Now that I know the "truth", I'm melting them down and selling them for scrap. Also, I'm launching a class-action lawsuit to right the terrible "harm" done to me and others. I'm devastated. (JUST KIDDING!)
There are some issues with knives that are worthy of strong words. This is not one of them.
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Cliff; you said:
IIRC, we normally use an avoirdupois ounce here in the US (and in Canada). This is equivalent to 28.35 Gm. There is an ounce which is equivalent to 31.1 Gm, but it is the troy, or apothecary, ounce, and is normally only used for precious metals and pharmaceuticals.
However, since you are the physicist, you may well be right. But this is not the way I learned it in pharmacy school.
Walt (nitpicker)
IIRC, we normally use an avoirdupois ounce here in the US (and in Canada). This is equivalent to 28.35 Gm. There is an ounce which is equivalent to 31.1 Gm, but it is the troy, or apothecary, ounce, and is normally only used for precious metals and pharmaceuticals.
However, since you are the physicist, you may well be right. But this is not the way I learned it in pharmacy school.
Walt (nitpicker)
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Browning claimed 440C on which advice I bought a signiture lockback model knife. Turned out to be AUS-8 steel. Now that suxs! 8a is a fair steel but not as good as 440C right?
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Wow. What a load of crap
I didn't know any manufacturer's did that.
So my 440A SOG's were really AUS-6 all along?
Never knew the difference.
No offense, Ron (as has been said, it's in the past), but trying to justify a lie won't change the fact that it's a lie.
So 440C is AUS-8??
I always thought it was comparable to AUS-10. Or is that what SOG calls BG-42
Owwww, I bet that hurt
I didn't know any manufacturer's did that.
So my 440A SOG's were really AUS-6 all along?
Never knew the difference.
No offense, Ron (as has been said, it's in the past), but trying to justify a lie won't change the fact that it's a lie.
So 440C is AUS-8??
I always thought it was comparable to AUS-10. Or is that what SOG calls BG-42
Owwww, I bet that hurt
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Hi Owen,
Regarding our BG-42, those knives are U.S. made and definitely BG-42.
That you never new the difference is a measure of evidence that these steels are very similar.
Regarding our BG-42, those knives are U.S. made and definitely BG-42.
General: As far as Browning knives are concerned, I've always seen the company's literature use the term "440c-type" to describe their steel, not simply "440c". I have seen retailers describe the steel as 440c, though. Not such a big deal, although some people seem to think otherwise.
Perhap's SOG should have used the term "440c-type" instead of just "440c". Still, calm down people. Also, as far as that REKAT 1095 vs. ats-34 incident, that's a lot different than this 440c/aus8, 440a/aus6 comparison.
Incidentally, I have a few Browning knives. Good knives at good prices. There's not a lot of talk about them, though. Check them out.
Perhap's SOG should have used the term "440c-type" instead of just "440c". Still, calm down people. Also, as far as that REKAT 1095 vs. ats-34 incident, that's a lot different than this 440c/aus8, 440a/aus6 comparison.
Incidentally, I have a few Browning knives. Good knives at good prices. There's not a lot of talk about them, though. Check them out.
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Hi Owen,
Yes, I saw the little guy, but I can imagine with it being brought up, someone might start asking the question.
Yes, I saw the little guy, but I can imagine with it being brought up, someone might start asking the question.
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I agree with Marty. I wish SOG did differently, but its not a huge deal. I've always known Japanese knives were not made of 440 steels, I would have thought the words "Made in Seki" was a clear tip off.
First of all, there is no such thing as a Japanese-made 440 knife. There is no such thing as an American-made VG-10 knife. Cutlery makers do not like to use other country's steel. This is mostly for convenience and certainty of supply. ATS-34 is the exception, it's a steel actually used by makers around the world.
Very few customers even know there's a difference between 420J and ATS-34. But many have heard of "440 surgical stainless", it's hardly surprising they would want to market it as such. If a prominent German company is selling a 440C knife, you can bet it's not the American melt. They could call it 1-4125 steel, but no one would know what it is.
From now on, SOG should at least let customers know what is being used and that AUS6 is *like* 440A. But really, serious knife collectors should know there're no 440 knives from Japan. Besides who has ever bought a AUS6 knife and said, that's weird, my other 440A knife is a whole lot better.
First of all, there is no such thing as a Japanese-made 440 knife. There is no such thing as an American-made VG-10 knife. Cutlery makers do not like to use other country's steel. This is mostly for convenience and certainty of supply. ATS-34 is the exception, it's a steel actually used by makers around the world.
Very few customers even know there's a difference between 420J and ATS-34. But many have heard of "440 surgical stainless", it's hardly surprising they would want to market it as such. If a prominent German company is selling a 440C knife, you can bet it's not the American melt. They could call it 1-4125 steel, but no one would know what it is.
From now on, SOG should at least let customers know what is being used and that AUS6 is *like* 440A. But really, serious knife collectors should know there're no 440 knives from Japan. Besides who has ever bought a AUS6 knife and said, that's weird, my other 440A knife is a whole lot better.
Cliff Stamp
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Walt, you are correct, that is what I get for using an on line converter and not paying attention to the result.
-Cliff
-Cliff