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What's the differances between CPM S30V and S30V?

Also, didn't Crucible initially design 154CM with an older PM process that pre-dated CPM?


154cm was originally developed by Climax Molybdenum Co., hence the "cm" in 154cm and Crucible bought the formula and began production. I believe it is/was regular ingot production and not PM or an earlier version. I can't say for sure though. They later came out with CPM 154 as the powder steel version. ATS 34 is a made in Japan ( Hitachi) version of 154cm. RWL 34 is a European steel of the same formula but it is also a powder steel. Which came first CPM 154, or RWL 34 I don't know. Latrobe makes a version of 154cm they call 14-4.

Also, Crucibles version of D2 they refer to as Airdi 150 in house. Most steels have names the foundries use besides their AISI, JIS, whatever names. here are some of Latrobes, carpenters and now crucibles since Carpenter bought everybody out. http://customer.cartech.com/technical_datasheets.cfm
 
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Somewhat-related question... Crucible made CPM-D2 in a very limited batch for Spyderco among some others several years ago, as I recall. The gains of the PM process in regard to D2 were not worth the additional cost. CPM-D2 was thus discontinued.

Why is it that I see current custom makers using the CPM-D2 designation on their knives? Seems like there might be secret batches of it slipping out here and there. Or somebody's sitting on some like .22 ammo.

Sorta like previously unreleased Beatles albums hitting the shelves every few months, if that were to happen. :confused:
 
154cm was originally developed by Climax Molybdenum Co., hence the "cm" in 154cm and Crucible bought the formula and began production. I believe it is/was regular ingot production and not PM or an earlier version. I can't say for sure though. They later came out with CPM 154 as the powder steel version. ATS 34 is a made in Japan ( Hitachi) version of 154cm. RWL 34 is a European steel of the same formula but it is also a powder steel. Which came first CPM 154, or RWL 34 I don't know. Latrobe makes a version of 154cm they call 14-4.

Also, Crucibles version of D2 they refer to as Airdi 150 in house. Most steels have names the foundries use besides their AISI, JIS, whatever names. here are some of Latrobes, carpenters and now crucibles since Carpenter bought everybody out. http://customer.cartech.com/technical_datasheets.cfm

Cool to know! Thanks! I always figured the C and M was for Carbon and Molybdenum...now I feel kind of silly! :p

this forum rocks!

I've used RWL-34 some (and Damasteel) and I think like CPM-154 it kicks ass and improves upon ATS-34 like CPM-154 does over 154CM in that it makes a great steel even greater. While I doubt it is ever possible to say one steel is 'best', my experience with both CPM-154 and RWL-34 have just been great and left me with the opinion that they are among the finest steels for folding knives because they do everything really well (much like how I feel about S30V, S35VN, ELMAX, etc.)

I've never really understood why they aren't more popular :confused:
 
Somewhat-related question... Crucible made CPM-D2 in a very limited batch for Spyderco among some others several years ago, as I recall. The gains of the PM process in regard to D2 were not worth the additional cost. CPM-D2 was thus discontinued.

Why is it that I see current custom makers using the CPM-D2 designation on their knives? Seems like there might be secret batches of it slipping out here and there. Or somebody's sitting on some like .22 ammo.

Sorta like previously unreleased Beatles albums hitting the shelves every few months, if that were to happen. :confused:

Likely from the run that Crucible made not that long ago, I am sure some makers bought some of it so they could have it on hand..
 
Likely from the run that Crucible made not that long ago, I am sure some makers bought some of it so they could have it on hand..

You're probably spot on, Sir. Kinda like seeing new knives with 30-40 year-old Westinghouse Micarta scales turn up here and there. Or dinosaur bone for that matter! :D
 
Likely from the run that Crucible made not that long ago, I am sure some makers bought some of it so they could have it on hand..

I have read this as well that Sal tested and concluded the performance gains of CPM-D2 over D2 were very modest and not justifiable of the higher costs, and Crucible decided not to go further with CPM-D2...and a few years ago it seemed Kershaw was progressively discontinuing CPM-D2 usage, but it seems recently more CPM-D2 knives are coming out from a few makers, for example Kershaw and Bark River.

Are the quantities of steel makers purchase in such large batches that they can last years and years after production ceases? (it seemed for a while this happened with BG-42 when it wasn't readily available for a while.) Like I've often wondered if producers purchase a sheet of it, a box of it, a pallet of it, a pickup truck full, or semi truck loaded, or a boxcare on a train worth, or half a cargo ships worth as it's a quantity of scale I just can't conceptualize :p
 
Ive seen it called CPF-S30v on amazon! So what does that mean??? HMMMM? :D

In all seriousness, this thread is actually quite intriguing. I have one question though. Does Crucible also still make regular ingot steels like 154cm in addition to their PM version (CPM 154)? I know its not proprietary to Crucible, but do they make it? Or does Crucible only make CPM steels now?
 
Ive seen it called CPF-S30v on amazon! So what does that mean??? HMMMM? :D

In all seriousness, this thread is actually quite intriguing. I have one question though. Does Crucible also still make regular ingot steels like 154cm in addition to their PM version (CPM 154)? I know its not proprietary to Crucible, but do they make it? Or does Crucible only make CPM steels now?

Yes, they produce a large variety of steels..
 
The gains of the PM process in regard to D2 were not worth the additional cost. CPM-D2 was thus discontinued.

Well, sort of. It's not worth it to industrial tool and die makers, who are by far the biggest users of D2, and simply don't require the additional quality of finish and edge stability. As for knifemakers, yeah it's worth it to some so they'll continue to use it. But the fact is there an awful lot of steels in use now that perform better across the board and don't really cost any more. If you like CPM-D2, you'll flat-out love CPM-3V, Elmax, CTS-XHP and others. As for me, I don't mess with it. On the rare occasions someone asks me for a knife in CPM-D2 or regular D2 for that matter, I recommend CPM-3V. If they need a higher level of corrosion resistance, I advise CPM-154 or Elmax (or CTS-XHP when I can get it). There are other alloys that are also suitable, but for reasons of not driving myself crazy keeping track of a huge inventory, I try to stick with just a handful of excellent alloy choices.

Why is it that I see current custom makers using the CPM-D2 designation on their knives? Seems like there might be secret batches of it slipping out here and there. Or somebody's sitting on some like .22 ammo.

It's not that nefarious. There's still a fair amount of CPM-D2 out there. It would take years for a handful of custom makers or sprints to go through as much of it as a big manu would in a couple major runs.
 
I hear such great things about CPM-154 being a wonderful, balanced cutlery steel. It is reputed to retain decent toughness at high hardness, a very desirable attribute. Why is its use largely confined to custom makers? I can't recall ever seeing it offered on a production knife, fixed or folding.
 
Buck and Kershaw amongst many others have used the powder steel CPM 154. Both have used the powder steel as well as ingot version.

Joe
 
I hear such great things about CPM-154 being a wonderful, balanced cutlery steel. It is reputed to retain decent toughness at high hardness, a very desirable attribute. Why is its use largely confined to custom makers? I can't recall ever seeing it offered on a production knife, fixed or folding.

Both Buck 110 and Alpha Dorado production knives were made with CPM-154 for a time.
 
Buck made a mini alpha hunter fixed blade in CPM-154. I believe it was a special release for Bass pro shop or Cabelas. I'm not sure how many were made. They offered that knife in multiple steels.
 
CPM is all U.S. Made?

The CPM process, which stands for Crucible Particle Metallurgy refers to the actual and patented method that the steel is prepared (via a PM, or Powder Metallurgy, process). So in Crucible's case, CPM is applied to American steels that Crucible offers. However, not all PM processes are necessarily American (ex: Bohler U., DAMASTEEL, Carpenter/Latrobe, etc. also use a PM processes, which like Crucible are patented PM processes and all are slightly different, and IIRC Bohler is German or something like that.)

Here's some information on the CPM Process and PM steels in-general:
http://www.crucibleservice.com/eselector/general/generalpart3.html


The way I have come to understand it is that, in simplified terms, applying a powder metallurgy process to an existing conventional steel yields improved homogeneity while reducing segregation, more or less taking an existing steel and making it more consistent without modifying the actual alloy contents. This greater consistency can result in better performance over the exact same steel made with conventional methods; sometimes this is very pronounced and other times it is not.

The advantages of a PM process are often very applicable in the world of knives because the performance areas we value most are generally the ones most enhanced by a PM process, and many popular knife steels (ex: tool steels) are the kinds of steels that tend to benefit greatly from a PM process. The real-world benefit the CPM process (and other PM processes) yields us can be improved wear resistance with greater toughness and less chipping. Simultaneously, the CPM process can make sharpening easier. A PM steel at a higher hardness can be more practical for the end-user than their conventional counterparts at the same high-hardness. One example is 154CM vs. CPM-154 in that 154CM @62HRC would not be very practical, but CPM-154 @62HRC is tough as hell, plenty practical, and holds a screaming sharp edge for a very long time (and far longer than 154CM).

It's also worth noting that not all steels benefit equally from a PM process. For example, M4 via a PM process benefits much, much, much more than M2 does and M4 benefits so much that it is only available as CPM-M4 IIRC. CPM-154 makes huge improvements over 154CM, where as CPM-D2 does not make such notable improvements over D2. Whereas the higher price of CPM-154 is without doubt justifiable due to a huge boost in performance, it is less justifiable with CPM-D2.
toughnesscpmvsconv.gif





Someone else will have to correct me if my non-technical explanation does not make sense, but that's how I've come to understand it. I found all of this really confusing at first. I think part of it is because you have "CPM" and "PM" which are pretty close!!! Also, the availability of PM steels can make things more confusing...Crucible offers some steels in conventional-only, other steels in both conventional and CPM, and other steels in CPM-only. The use of the word "generation" in regards to PM steels is also kind of confusing, and the CPM process is sometimes referred to as "first generation powder metallurgy" or something like that. This is somewhat misleading because the "second" and "third" generation PM processes are technically just different rather than generational improvements.
 
I hear such great things about CPM-154 being a wonderful, balanced cutlery steel. It is reputed to retain decent toughness at high hardness, a very desirable attribute. Why is its use largely confined to custom makers? I can't recall ever seeing it offered on a production knife, fixed or folding.

Kershaw used it for a while on many products, such as the Spec Bump and certain Blur models. The carbon fiber/CPM-154 Blur is one of my favorite production knives. I also have a Blur in CPM-S30V, and I have a Spec Bump in CPM-154 and used to have one in CPM-S30V. While Kershaw's CPM-S30V is great, I strongly prefer their CPM-154. My CPM-154 Blur is one of the toughest folding knife blades I own, and it can really hold up to impact/shock (i.e., my dumb ass dropping it on hard surfaces) in a fashion that most steels cannot. A Bark River I have in CPM-154 is one of the finest knives I own, and between the great geometry, great heat treatment, and great steel, it holds its edge forever-and-a-half.

I've wondered the question myself given CPM-154 is technically less expensive than many newer exotic steels, and with a good heat treatment it will hold its own with the best of the best. Thus far, the only reasons I can find that make sense is limited availability, and a reluctance to use it because 154CM is thought of as a good steel, but also an 'entry' steel in many cases, and in a world where new 'super' steels are often demanded. Some (or many) customers may not understand paying a premium for the same steel except with a "CPM-" at the front and "CM" deleted from the back, or opting for a 154 over a newer exotic steel that gets a lot of attention (and sometimes hype that overstates performance).

I think good CPM-154 (and RWL-34) is comparable to a great steel like ELMAX. But at 'face' value, "common sense" logic says that it seems impossible that the exact same steel could be THAT much better, and some consumers may not be willing to accept this/pay for this.
 
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