What's the fascination with 80CrV2?

[SwissHeritageCo]

80crv2 is probably my favorite steel for woods/outdoor use. AEBL and 14c are right there with it. As others have said it's easy to sharpen but also easy to reprofile, couple seconds on the strop and bobs your uncle. My least favorite steel ever was 4v, the stuff just wouldn't sharpen... get a nick or edge damage? Have fun with that...

 

[Arathol]

What does some Master Bladesmith know about steel?

Wait, a Master Bladesmith is still using a beginner steel........?........LOL.......

 

[ScarFoot]

One of the main reasons I like 80CrV2 is that it’s pretty easy to heat treat. I use a lot of it and it’s fairly easy to dial in temps to get the hardness you’re looking for consistently. That’s not the case with some other carbon steels. 1095/W2 get a lot of use because you can get good hamon definition from them but they can be a pain to harden properly.

A lot of stainless and “super” steels have more exotic heat treatments and often need a cryogenic treatment to achieve their full potential. That’s a lot harder for most makers to do in house and farming heat treatment out drives up cost. Also, they’re a lot harder to grind/machine. I’ve noticed at the last few shows I’ve done that a lot of folks are starting to shy away from super steels on fixed blades because they’re too hard to sharpen. A lot more people are asking how difficult sharpening a knife will be before they buy it.

At the end of the day if a knife is well designed and well made it doesn’t matter much what steel it is made out of.

 

[Cassull]

I want a Winkler. Their designs have this steel.

I own like 6 Winklers with this steel, they are great.

I don't hate the steel, I just want to know why so many makers use it when it's maybe not even in the top 20 of "performance" steels. For instance, I'd much rather have S30V over 80CrV2 steel

 

[Cassull]

80crv2 is probably my favorite steel for woods/outdoor use. AEBL and 14c are right there with it. As others have said it's easy to sharpen but also easy to reprofile, couple seconds on the strop and bobs your uncle. My least favorite steel ever was 4v, the stuff just wouldn't sharpen... get a nick or edge damage? Have fun with that...

So having a low edge retention works in its favor here. Lower edge retention = easier to sharpen out in the field

 

[Delgadonine]

I own like 6 Winklers with this steel, they are great.

I don't hate the steel, I just want to know why so many makers use it when it's maybe not even in the top 20 of "performance" steels. For instance, I'd much rather have S30V over 80CrV2 steel

You might have answered your own question. 80CrV2 isnt as difficult to make into a great performer as S30V is?

I hope some experts reply.

 

[Matthew Gregory]

80crv2 is probably my favorite steel for woods/outdoor use. AEBL and 14c are right there with it. As others have said it's easy to sharpen but also easy to reprofile, couple seconds on the strop and bobs your uncle. My least favorite steel ever was 4v, the stuff just wouldn't sharpen... get a nick or edge damage? Have fun with that...

Comments like this fascinate me.

Perhaps I’m just oblivious to how other makers use alloys like CPM4v, but I don’t find them any more or less difficult to maintain, or at least not dramatically so. Perhaps this comes down to a function of poor geometry?

This is the original Mattchettay I made, almost a decade ago. The owner uses it to clear his property, and the properties he oversees, as well as for firewood prep. He uses it all the time, and it lives in his pickup. When he sent me this photo, he told me he’s only needed to sharpen it three times. In nearly TEN years.

I think that may speak to his uses of the tool more-so than any magic attributable to the alloy, but he also said it’s really not much work to sharpen - it just hasn’t needed it much.


I don’t think there’s anything inherently wrong with 80CrV2 - lots of my friends work with it, and I think in their hands it makes a great knife. I don’t see a heck of a lot of it in the cutting competitions, though, yet 4v is just about the de facto choice for that arena.

Everyone has their own reasons, though. Gotta do your own thing, your way.

 

[SwissHeritageCo]

Comments like this fascinate me.

Perhaps I’m just oblivious to how other makers use alloys like CPM4v, but I don’t find them any more or less difficult to maintain, or at least not dramatically so. Perhaps this comes down to a function of poor geometry?

This is the original Mattchettay I made, almost a decade ago. The owner uses it to clear his property, and the properties he oversees, as well as for firewood prep. He uses it all the time, and it lives in his pickup. When he sent me this photo, he told me he’s only needed to sharpen it three times. In nearly TEN years.

I think that may speak to his uses of the tool more-so than any magic attributable to the alloy, but he also said it’s really not much work to sharpen - it just hasn’t needed it much.


I don’t think there’s anything inherently wrong with 80CrV2 - lots of my friends work with it, and I think in their hands it makes a great knife. I don’t see a heck of a lot of it in the cutting competitions, though, yet 4v is just about the de facto choice for that arena.

Everyone has their own reasons, though. Gotta do your own thing, your way.

My case use was a very thin puukko and I legitimately had trouble sharpening the damage out. Wasn't stropping with diamond emulsion but I was sharpening with diamond stones.

But I'm with ya in regards to different strokes different folks

 

[Crag the Brewer]

Comments like this fascinate me.

Perhaps I’m just oblivious to how other makers use alloys like CPM4v, but I don’t find them any more or less difficult to maintain, or at least not dramatically so. Perhaps this comes down to a function of poor geometry?

This is the original Mattchettay I made, almost a decade ago. The owner uses it to clear his property, and the properties he oversees, as well as for firewood prep. He uses it all the time, and it lives in his pickup. When he sent me this photo, he told me he’s only needed to sharpen it three times. In nearly TEN years.

I think that may speak to his uses of the tool more-so than any magic attributable to the alloy, but he also said it’s really not much work to sharpen - it just hasn’t needed it much.


I don’t think there’s anything inherently wrong with 80CrV2 - lots of my friends work with it, and I think in their hands it makes a great knife. I don’t see a heck of a lot of it in the cutting competitions, though, yet 4v is just about the de facto choice for that arena.

Everyone has their own reasons, though. Gotta do your own thing, your way.

Nice looking blade ... Do those in cutting competitions use their game blades to chop into the soil, cutting roots and suckers, sometimes hitting small stone, in "the off season" ?
Such as a lot of us call "Beater Blades"
Or do they play Nice with them?

I personally wouldn't want to grind chips out of a Hard 4V blade regularly, and I see no shame in having a beater blade made from some lowly steel as 8670, AEB_L, or 15n20.

Edit to add....what's best in a sport or a game, might not be ideal in real life?

 

[SwissHeritageCo]

So having a low edge retention works in its favor here. Lower edge retention = easier to sharpen out in the field

For me yes... but really just stropping.

It all a trade off. You can have better retention and longer sharpening sessions or you can have less retention and go back to hair popping with a few strokes on the strop.

I'm happy that people enjoy awesome advancements and supersteels but I'm more concerned about a solid heat treat and edge geometry.

 

[Matthew Gregory]

Nice looking blade ... Do those in cutting competitions use their game blades to chop into the soil, cutting roots and suckers, sometimes hitting small stone, in "the off season" ?
Such as a lot of us call "Beater Blades"
Or do they play Nice with them?

I personally wouldn't want to grind chips out of a Hard 4V blade regularly, and I see no shame in having a beater blade made from some lowly steel as 8670, AEB_L, or 15n20.

You should consider making a cutting competition blade and running it through a course.

It might surprise you to know this, but I’ve used blades the way you’ve described. The chopper I made in CPM-Magnacut before the alloy had a name was tested to failure, and it wasn’t until I drove it through a cinder block with a hammer the fourth time that it finally succumbed, and the fact is that it was a careless blow on my part that caused that. Throughout the testing, the only touch-ups needed were done freehand with a DMT 325 grit diamond plate, and happened quickly.

I didn’t say 4v would be my final or only choice, I merely stated that I didn’t understand why people had issues dealing with things like sharpening.

Like I said before - you do you. If you want to use ‘lowly’ steels for ‘beater blades’, have at it. I’ve used all the alloys you’ve mentioned off-hand, and then some. I’ve reached different conclusions than you have.

 

[Matthew Gregory]

I'm happy that people enjoy awesome advancements and supersteels but I'm more concerned about a solid heat treat and edge geometry.

You can have both of those things with awesome advancements and supersteels, too. Contrary to some of the positions voiced in this thread, I’d contend it’s easier to get those results with modern alloys than it might be with so-called ‘simple steels’. Larrin’s video discussing the release of ProCut actually touched on this, specifically with the variability of 80CrV2 from the myriad of vendors.

I think you know this, and I don’t mean to make it sound as if I’m diminishing your understanding. Quite the contrary, but there are others reading this that might not have the background you or I do, and sometimes laying things out helps the casual reader.

 

[Matthew Gregory]

Edit to add....what's best in a sport or a game, might not be ideal in real life?

I see you added this comment.

The observation I made was carefully worded to include steels ‘like 4v’. I think that could be simplified to include steels other than ‘simple steels’. I would also argue that AEBL doesn’t fall into the category of ‘simple steel’, but I digress.

Nonetheless, let’s continue with 4v and cutting competitions. The reason it has effectively dominated that arena is because for the trials it sees, with the geometry needed to compete and win, that is the best alloy to support near-kitchen knife geometry to optimize cutting ability while also having enough toughness and wear resistance to withstand the ‘obstacles’ of the course. Those blades see unbelievable stresses, especially considering the thin geometry they run. Will they handle chopping rocks? Of course not. But that’s a geometry factor, no? Isn’t that the point?

Again, I’m not telling you one is right or wrong. And yes, I use plenty of steels that are intended for greater abuse, preferring both CPM-3v and S7 for things of that nature, but the observation I made was that sharpening and ‘working chips out’ isn’t that much more work with the appropriate abrasives.

 

[Crag the Brewer]

I see you added this comment.

The observation I made was carefully worded to include steels ‘like 4v’. I think that could be simplified to include steels other than ‘simple steels’. I would also argue that AEBL doesn’t fall into the category of ‘simple steel’, but I digress.

Nonetheless, let’s continue with 4v and cutting competitions. The reason it has effectively dominated that arena is because for the trials it sees, with the geometry needed to compete and win, that is the best alloy to support near-kitchen knife geometry to optimize cutting ability while also having enough toughness and wear resistance to withstand the ‘obstacles’ of the course. Those blades see unbelievable stresses, especially considering the thin geometry they run. Will they handle chopping rocks? Of course not. But that’s a geometry factor, no? Isn’t that the point?

Again, I’m not telling you one is right or wrong. And yes, I use plenty of steels that are intended for greater abuse, preferring both CPM-3v and S7 for things of that nature, but the observation I made was that sharpening and ‘working chips out’ isn’t that much more work with the appropriate abrasives.

Yes, I edited to add that almost instantly after first posting, Well before comments from/to my post. Not to sneak anything in.

Thanks for you commenting.
Good conversations.

 

[Matthew Gregory]

To keep all this in context, here’s a shot of the geometry on my CPK ‘race’ grind competition chopper.

This is the same knife, same geometry that’s been dominating the race circuit. Horses for courses, for sure! Geometry is everything - all we can do with alloy and heat treat is hope to support that geometry through careful selection.


Edited to add that this is in Vanadis 4e - virtually identical chemistry to 4v. I’m pretty sure the new ones Nate is making are in 4v, now.

 

[beeinak]

Comments like this fascinate me.

Perhaps I’m just oblivious to how other makers use alloys like CPM4v, but I don’t find them any more or less difficult to maintain, or at least not dramatically so. Perhaps this comes down to a function of poor geometry?

This is the original Mattchettay I made, almost a decade ago. The owner uses it to clear his property, and the properties he oversees, as well as for firewood prep. He uses it all the time, and it lives in his pickup. When he sent me this photo, he told me he’s only needed to sharpen it three times. In nearly TEN years.

I think that may speak to his uses of the tool more-so than any magic attributable to the alloy, but he also said it’s really not much work to sharpen - it just hasn’t needed it much.


I don’t think there’s anything inherently wrong with 80CrV2 - lots of my friends work with it, and I think in their hands it makes a great knife. I don’t see a heck of a lot of it in the cutting competitions, though, yet 4v is just about the de facto choice for that arena.

Everyone has their own reasons, though. Gotta do your own thing, your way.

That is a great looking blade!

 

[ScarFoot]

I see you added this comment.

The observation I made was carefully worded to include steels ‘like 4v’. I think that could be simplified to include steels other than ‘simple steels’. I would also argue that AEBL doesn’t fall into the category of ‘simple steel’, but I digress.

Nonetheless, let’s continue with 4v and cutting competitions. The reason it has effectively dominated that arena is because for the trials it sees, with the geometry needed to compete and win, that is the best alloy to support near-kitchen knife geometry to optimize cutting ability while also having enough toughness and wear resistance to withstand the ‘obstacles’ of the course. Those blades see unbelievable stresses, especially considering the thin geometry they run. Will they handle chopping rocks? Of course not. But that’s a geometry factor, no? Isn’t that the point?

Again, I’m not telling you one is right or wrong. And yes, I use plenty of steels that are intended for greater abuse, preferring both CPM-3v and S7 for things of that nature, but the observation I made was that sharpening and ‘working chips out’ isn’t that much more work with the appropriate abrasives.

Are you heat treating the 4V and 3V yourself? If so, how hard is it to get consistent hardness numbers? I make my knives thinner than a lot of people so I’ve been looking at some “higher end” steels for edge retention on thin grinds with lower d.p.s. edges but I don’t have a cryo setup yet. I don’t want to mess with a higher dollar steel until I can heat treat it closer to its full potential. Especially with it as expensive as it is now.
I am getting ready to dip my toes in the Procut waters. I’ve got a few sticks of it but haven’t made anything out of it yet.

 

[Matthew Gregory]

Are you heat treating the 4V and 3V yourself? If so, how hard is it to get consistent hardness numbers? I make my knives thinner than a lot of people so I’ve been looking at some “higher end” steels for edge retention on thin grinds with lower d.p.s. edges but I don’t have a cryo setup yet. I don’t want to mess with a higher dollar steel until I can heat treat it closer to its full potential. Especially with it as expensive as it is now.
I am getting ready to dip my toes in the Procut waters. I’ve got a few sticks of it but haven’t made anything out of it yet.

I do all my own heat treatment, including cryo. I have trust issues.


Devin has said it countless times, but he’s not the only one I’ve heard it from - heat treat is the one place where a properly set up ‘home heat treater’ can meet or exceed the pros, for a variety of reasons. I would urge you to pick up a liquid nitrogen dewar and dive in - my guess is that steels you’re already using may benefit from sub-zero temperatures and beyond. And, of course, you can use any damn steel you feel like fooling with, then, too!

I’ve yet to try ProCut, but there are already alloys I use that meet or exceed its capabilities, many of which offer other advantages or improvements. For a new guy, or the bladesmith that’s not already heavily invested in other alloys, it’s a no-brainer. I gave up hitting steel with hammers years ago…

 

[ScarFoot]

I do all my own heat treatment, including cryo. I have trust issues.


Devin has said it countless times, but he’s not the only one I’ve heard it from - heat treat is the one place where a properly set up ‘home heat treater’ can meet or exceed the pros, for a variety of reasons. I would urge you to pick up a liquid nitrogen dewar and dive in - my guess is that steels you’re already using may benefit from sub-zero temperatures and beyond. And, of course, you can use any damn steel you feel like fooling with, then, too!

I’ve yet to try ProCut, but there are already alloys I use that meet or exceed its capabilities, many of which offer other advantages or improvements. For a new guy, or the bladesmith that’s not already heavily invested in other alloys, it’s a no-brainer. I gave up hitting steel with hammers years ago…

I do all stock removal. Just invested in new heat treat and tempering ovens and a hardness tester this year but haven’t gotten a dewar yet. Right now I’m trying to keep things priced reasonably for the average customer but now that I’m getting better at grinding I’d like to start offering a few “higher end” options. I do all my own heat treating too which is why so far I only work with steels I could get consistent results with using my old oven. It sounds like Procut can be somewhat forgiving in terms of general heat treating but also benefit from cryo. I figured since it’s a lot cheaper than CPM-3V or 4V right now it would be a good stepping stone and I really won’t have to change prices much. Plus I just wanted to try something new.

 

[Matthew Gregory]

I do all stock removal. Just invested in new heat treat and tempering ovens and a hardness tester this year but haven’t gotten a dewar yet. Right now I’m trying to keep things priced reasonably for the average customer but now that I’m getting better at grinding I’d like to start offering a few “higher end” options. I do all my own heat treating too which is why so far I only work with steels I could get consistent results with using my old oven. It sounds like Procut can be somewhat forgiving in terms of general heat treating but also benefit from cryo. I figured since it’s a lot cheaper than CPM-3V or 4V right now it would be a good stepping stone and I really won’t have to change prices much. Plus I just wanted to try something new.

Dewar is a spendy purchase, but if you’re anything like me, you’ll gripe and wring your hands together, gnashing of teeth, vicious internal debating about whether or not you can afford it or justify it… then have the sick sweats after committing to the purchase.

And then forget all of the agony of the decision after realizing how many doors it opens.

It’s gotten to the point where I’m barely making half a dozen knives in a year, and I still GLADLY refill my dewar when it needs it, knowing that when the urge to make something strikes, I’m ready for it, and no steel is outside of my capabilities.




Follow your muse. Life is too short to hesitate.


Besides, you could be wasting the money on something truly tragic, like golf or your children’s education.