What's the fascination with 80CrV2?

Matthew Gregory said:
Dewar is a spendy purchase, but if you’re anything like me, you’ll gripe and wring your hands together, gnashing of teeth, vicious internal debating about whether or not you can afford it or justify it… then have the sick sweats after committing to the purchase.

And then forget all of the agony of the decision after realizing how many doors it opens.

It’s gotten to the point where I’m barely making half a dozen knives in a year, and I still GLADLY refill my dewar when it needs it, knowing that when the urge to make something strikes, I’m ready for it, and no steel is outside of my capabilities.




Follow your muse. Life is too short to hesitate.


Besides, you could be wasting the money on something truly tragic, like golf or your children’s education.


😬
Click to expand...
Do you have a readily available model dewar? I’ve been researching but am not sure which one I want. I have 27” ovens, I know I probably don’t want anything that size but something in the chopper size range would probably be sufficient.

I quit trying to justify cost a long time ago. If it’s something I need to do the job right I save until I have enough money to get it.
 
ScarFoot said:
Do you have a readily available model dewar? I’ve been researching but am not sure which one I want. I have 27” ovens, I know I probably don’t want anything that size but something in the chopper size range would probably be sufficient.

I quit trying to justify cost a long time ago. If it’s something I need to do the job right I save until I have enough money to get it.
Click to expand...


Let’s move this out of this thread. I fear I’ve already been too disruptive. Shoot me an email and I’ll reply to you when I have a chance.
 
Last edited:
Great steal. Easy to sharpen, widely available, tough, can grind thin, easy HT and workability (easy for makers to fabricate).

If I made knives, all I'd offer is: 80CrV2, 3V, and Magnacut.
 
Back on topic,
As our derailment has shown there are certainly other higher performing steels available but they generally come with more complex heat treat protocols. 80CrV2 makes a perfectly serviceable knife and it’s very easy to work with. I don’t think makers are fascinated with it so much as they’re confident in it. Over the last few years I’ve used a lot of it and I know through testing I can get a very fine grain structure and very consistent hardness results with a simple heat treatment process.
 
If I recall correctly, I think it was from Larrin Larrin or some other metallurgist, that simple steels are more difficult to heat treat because they have very tight parameters to work with.

Steels with more alloying elements could be harder to get the absolute optimal result, but are are more flexible and forgiving in heat treatment.

I know some makers who make and heat treat their own blades in simple steels and more "high end" steels, and the time put in is way more expensive than the difficulty.

A very personal opinion, I think brands that sell high end and mass production 1095 or 80CrV2, that cost more than my customs, are borderline scam.
 
Last edited:
ScarFoot said:
Back on topic,
As our derailment has shown there are certainly other higher performing steels available but they generally come with more complex heat treat protocols. 80CrV2 makes a perfectly serviceable knife and it’s very easy to work with. I don’t think makers are fascinated with it so much as they’re confident in it. Over the last few years I’ve used a lot of it and I know through testing I can get a very fine grain structure and very consistent hardness results with a simple heat treatment process.
Click to expand...
I think makers like CPM154 for the same reason in stainless steels. Smaller makers who do things in-house often dial in a heat treat for their preferred steel and like to stick with it.
 
Deino said:
If I recall correctly, I think it was from Larrin Larrin or some other metallurgist, that simple steels are more difficult to heat treat because they have very tight parameters to work with.

Steels with more alloying elements could be harder to get the absolute optimal result, but are are more flexible and forgiving in heat treatment.

I know some makers who make and heat treat their own blades in simple steels and more "high end" steels, and the time put in is way more expensive than the difficulty.

A very personal opinion, I think brands that sell high end and mass production 1095 or 80CrV2, that cost more than my customs, are borderline scam.
Click to expand...
I don’t agree with any of this. Some simple steels like 1095 and W2 are a bit finicky but if you have any control of your heat whatsoever they’re not terrible. Heat treating 80CrV2 is so simple it’s boring. The last 20-30 knives I’ve made in 80CrV2 haven’t varied in hardness outside the normal variance of the tester.

Right now CPM-4V is roughly 4x the price of 80CrV2 if you can even find it. So, what’s the point in paying 4x the material cost and significantly more in machining/grinding cost for a steel if you’re not going to get an optimal heat treatment on it? That much difference in cost ($30-$50 per knife) is too significant for most makers to absorb without raising knife prices which ultimately costs them customers. Add to that the fact that the overwhelming majority of potential buyers at a show don’t know the difference between 4V and a tin can and you’ll find that you’re far past the point of diminishing returns.

I’m looking at using some of the higher end steels but I know to heat treat it properly I’m going to need to invest a lot of money in equipment and several hundred dollars worth of steel just for testing before I ever make a knife to sell out of it. Even then I’ll mainly just be doing it because I think it’s neat.
 


Roughly 27 minutes in, Larrin discusses the variation among 80CrV2 producers and the effects on final results in heat treat. This was part of the incentive to develop ProCut.

None of this is a big deal if you take the time to determine what’s happening, and apply whatever processing is necessary to the steel you’re using, assuming it needs it. But, and to Deino’s point, that processing likely doesn’t need to happen with more complex steels. From an anecdotal perspective, I have never experienced a higher alloy failure to meet manufacturer spec in heat treat that wasn’t due to being my fault. It’s the simple steels that are the ones that seem to have the widest variation in ‘as-delivered’ stage, and many of them need significant processing by the maker to achieve an optimal state, whether this be high temperature soaks to break up coarse spheroidized carbides, or DET anneal steps, or thermal cycling. All of these things don’t need to happen with any of the PM steels.

As long as the maker knows about it, and knows what to look for, and is equipped to deal with it, it’s not a problem, it’s just part of the process. I point this out not to dissuade anyone from using these steels - just providing some of the realities of it.
 
Many makers that use 80CrV2 always have same supplier and have also tuned in their processes to optimize the HT. So, different manufacturers having their steel different under microscope shouldn't be an issue for a maker that did some testing and experimentation with various heat treats.

We also know that 80CrV2 is easy to work with, and is cheap and widely available.

That combined with ease of sharpening, great toughness, great edge stability and support of thin edges... well we can all see why it's popular.
 
Crag the Brewer said:
Edge Geometry, handle design, and Makers reputation is More important to me!
Click to expand...

I wish more people would pay attention to what you're saying here, especially "knife designers".

The handle design is, arguably, the single most important feature on a knife. It's definitely the one that will impact use the fastest.

I don't care how great the steel and heat treat are, if the handle is crap, I'm ditching that knife the first chance I get.

Edge geometry has got to be the most misunderstood or ignored aspect of a knife (for general users, not aficionados/enthusiasts, etc.). The ares by work tuff gear is the perfect example. "It's unbreakable! It's so tough!" Yeah, it's basically a thick hatchet. Try using it like a knife. (I actually like a good number of work tuff gear knives, not crapping on the brand.)

When I explained edge geometry to my 2 contractor friends and my nephew using my kitchen knives, a spyderco military 2, and a benchmade it was like showing a caveman fire for the first time. I had them cut paper first, then cut carrots, and potatoes.

Larrin has pointed out all of this on his site through his experiments though.

Hammer67 said:
People should use knives more than look at charts.

IMHO. :cool:
Click to expand...

I completely agree. However, when I was new to knives, I just wanted the "best". I had no idea there were so many factors and considerations with a knife. I didn't even know what to buy to start using. When you have limited funds, you agonize over buying a knife because you might make the "wrong" choice and be stuck with it. So you look for summaries/opinions to tell you what "the best" actual is. Enter charts.

That's how I was and that's what got me started on my journey.

The problem with "charts" is you basically have 2 options, but they're opposite extremes.
1. Sites like bladehq with poorly constructed charts that list knife steel attributes, which leads people to believe that the steel is all that matters.
2. Sites like knifesteelnerds that are too long, in depth, and confusing for someone (who doesn't know what they're unaware of) looking for a simple and/or quick answer.

In my experience, most people want a lightsaber, something that never goes dull, and an indestructible prybar all in one. They have no idea about edge geometry, lateral stress, the difference between rolling vs chipping, hrc/heat treat, burning the apex of an edge, etc. They're ignorant to the compromises caused when going to fat in any one direction.

They either settle on a steel and call it good or some think "pay more, get more". Nevermind that maker x sells a knife with that steel for $100 while maker z sells it for $300. The differences don't cross their minds and it's easy to become overwhelmed by all the choices/options/factors.
 
carnifex knifeworks said:
I completely agree. However, when I was new to knives, I just wanted the "best". I had no idea there were so many factors and considerations with a knife. I didn't even know what to buy to start using. When you have limited funds, you agonize over buying a knife because you might make the "wrong" choice and be stuck with it. So you look for summaries/opinions to tell you what "the best" actual is. Enter charts.

That's how I was and that's what got me started on my journey.

The problem with "charts" is you basically have 2 options, but they're opposite extremes.
1. Sites like bladehq with poorly constructed charts that list knife steel attributes, which leads people to believe that the steel is all that matters.
2. Sites like knifesteelnerds that are too long, in depth, and confusing for someone (who doesn't know what they're unaware of) looking for a simple and/or quick answer.

In my experience, most people want a lightsaber, something that never goes dull, and an indestructible prybar all in one. They have no idea about edge geometry, lateral stress, the difference between rolling vs chipping, hrc/heat treat, burning the apex of an edge, etc. They're ignorant to the compromises caused when going to fat in any one direction.

They either settle on a steel and call it good or some think "pay more, get more". Nevermind that maker x sells a knife with that steel for $100 while maker z sells it for $300. The differences don't cross their minds and it's easy to become overwhelmed by all the choices/options/factors.
Click to expand...

For sure. It's also easy, when one is new to the knife game, to be convinced that steel is the most important thing, when it's really not.
 
Last edited:
80crv2 is simple, effective, and, in the right hands, can even win competitions, like the Forged in Fire: knife or death season 3 finale. The gentleman who won that season 3 competition, Dan Weston, had a panabas (if memory serves me well) forged in that steel. If it's good for that, what's not to like? By the way, the season two winner, Keith Hill, forged his sword out of 5160, I think, and the sword that won season 1 in the hands of the very talented Michael Allenson was Forged in 1075, another simple and very effective steel.
 
Last edited:
If the Varusteleka Skrama were ~$200 I never would have bought one. The steel is perfect for its intended use and the price is right.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top