What's The Most Detailed & Precise Counterfeit You've Seen So Far?

[strategy9]

I know not all that long ago, thanks to targeted ads and browsing cookies, I was semi regularly seeing ads on Facebook from companies boldly and openly claiming $50 "microtech" knives with no shame at all. Each time I'd tag microtech in the comments and report the sellers, but was always amazed how many people in the comments were praising the companies and/or couldn't wait to get their orders...

I do for the most part, try my best to only buy from authorized dealers. Probably 15 or so websites I browse through from dealers I trust come to mind. I have bought some secondary market knives here on the exchange, as well as a few hard to find and discontinued knives off auction sites, but far more often than not I buy new and buy direct from sources I know. If fixated on a certain brand/model and I'm having trouble finding in stock, I'll often go to the manufacturers site and check their "find an authorized dealer" links to locate and scour through some other lesser known stores and dealers sites out there I never would have thought of otherwise, even if the prices of some of those boutique shops are a bit higher.

 

[not2sharp]

Who to watch out for and where they are being sold is kinda important. Without that information the rest is a bit ambiguous. How's anybody supposed to know they are buying a fake if the important details keep getting hidden? Kaela at Winkler has told me that Winkler is having a hard time stopping them as it is, why not try helping by getting this out there so nobody falls for the fakes and buys one ? This has been discussed before on the Winkler thread and elsewhere without issue.....

Then again, as soon as we identify a defect the faker can use that to improve his product.

N2s

 

[Arathol]

Then again, as soon as we identify a defect the faker can use that to improve his product.

N2s

Look at it this way.....
This is supposed to be the largest and best knife forum. People come here every day for help with all sorts of problems, and fakes, clones and counterfeits are a common concern. Everybody complains that these are being sold and circulated, but when they are discussed the thread gets axed. Maybe if this forum actually had all the information available that can be supplied by those who know about such things, those not familiar with such things could get educated and would not be so easily duped. Yet here we are talking about which ones are the best.....?
I think we need to stop sticking our heads in the sand and stop pretending that we are somehow preventing fakes by not talking about them. I'm sure that there are a lot of makers and potential buyers who would like to see the people and places that make and sell fakes outed in a way that is visible and easy to find.

 

[not2sharp]

Look at it this way.....
This is supposed to be the largest and best knife forum. People come here every day for help with all sorts of problems, and fakes, clones and counterfeits are a common concern. Everybody complains that these are being sold and circulated, but when they are discussed the thread gets axed. Maybe if this forum actually had all the information available that can be supplied by those who know about such things, those not familiar with such things could get educated and would not be so easily duped. Yet here we are talking about which ones are the best.....?
I think we need to stop sticking our heads in the sand and stop pretending that we are somehow preventing fakes by not talking about them. I'm sure that there are a lot of makers and potential buyers who would like to see the people and places that make and sell fakes outed in a way that is visible and easy to find.

As I see it there are two issues: 1) the theft of intellectual property, whether in part or in whole. And, 2) The theft of both intellectual property and trademarks.

The former would be the infringement of patented design and technology without the owners permission. This could result in very similar knives, but they would still respect the original owners trademark. They are not intended to deceive but are designed to share in the market created by the original designer. Examples would include the endless versions of the Buck 110, or Western W49 Bowie produced by a wide range of manufacturers. However, since patents are a rare thing in knives, most of the technology is mature and in wide circulation, I have no problem with homage knives. With the exception of patented designs/technology, they represent the normal functioning of a competitive market.

Our problem is with the latter type of knives, which not only play with the design, but are produced with the intent to deceive. With modern tools these are becoming increasingly difficult to discern. We have all been burned by some of these, even in industries like aviation, medicine, food, construction and electronics where the risks are greater and the technology far more involved. The best of these would be beyond the ability of most buyers to detect; even, if you handed them a real certified version to hold in hand as a sample and asked them to chose between a real and faked knife. Often the differences will come down to material quality, production processes (such as heat treatments) or minute differences in tolerance (which may fall within the range of normal production).

We can arm ourselves with known defects and restrict our purchases to only well established dealers or the actual maker, but at best we would be able to say that the knife is not a known fake. At some point the industry may developed an AI tool capable of reading a few images and providing a probability rating in its genuineness, but we are not there yet and given the rich diversity of the knife business we may never get there.

N2s

 

[Arathol]

As I see it there are two issues: 1) the theft of intellectual property, whether in part or in whole. And, 2) The theft of both intellectual property and trademarks.

The former would be the infringement of patented design and technology without the owners permission. This could result in very similar knives, but they would still respect the original owners trademark. They are not intended to deceive but are designed to share in the market created by the original designer. Examples would include the endless versions of the Buck 110, or Western W49 Bowie produced by a wide range of manufacturers. However, since patents are a rare thing in knives, most of the technology is mature and in wide circulation, I have no problem with homage knives. With the exception of patented designs/technology, they represent the normal functioning of a competitive market.

Our problem is with the latter type of knives, which not only play with the design, but are produced with the intent to deceive. With modern tools these are becoming increasingly difficult to discern. We have all been burned by some of these, even in industries like aviation, medicine, food, construction and electronics where the risks are greater and the technology far more involved. The best of these would be beyond the ability of most buyers to detect; even, if you handed them a real certified version to hold in hand as a sample and asked them to chose between a real and faked knife. Often the differences will come down to material quality, production processes (such as heat treatments) or minute differences in tolerance (which may fall within the range of normal production).

We can arm ourselves with known defects and restrict our purchases to only well established dealers or the actual maker, but at best we would be able to say that the knife is not a known fake. At some point the industry may developed an AI tool capable of reading a few images and providing a probability rating in its genuineness, but we are not there yet and given the rich diversity of the knife business we may never get there.

N2s

While much of this may be true, its also just a regurgitation of the standard forum rhetoric. It doesn't take into account that there is a secondary market that does not have "established dealers" or "actual makers". More knives are sold on the secondary market than anywhere else. Also, it seems to assume that nobody should even buy a knife on the secondary market, and that everybody can afford to buy a new knife from a dealer.
How many posts about knives that may be fake involve knives from the secondary market or bought from some other online source or a table at some show? Pretty much all of them in fact...... used knives, knives you can no longer get, or have long waiting lists or are just prohibitively expensive new. Why? Well, nobody should have to question a knife bought direct from a dealer. Lots of members here have even commented that the best $200 knife is a used $400 knife. Where does "buy it from a dealer" fit in there? How is somebody supposed to know that the seller hasn't bought a box of well made fakes from China and is selling them as new/used for half of the retail price of a real example? If the information on such a seller or those knives is put out there, then maybe so many won't be duped. Hiding the issue doesn't do anyone any good.
There are a lot of fakes out there, and the secondary market and other web based sources are where many are being sold. It seems to me that stifling any information about these fakes, including who is selling them and where, is counterproductive and not at all hindering those people. All its doing is contributing to the problem by allowing it to continue. If members here were allowed to discuss fakes more openly, the information would be out there if somebody needed it. This is after all the worlds largest knife forum and one of the first that comes up in a search engine, and as such should be the best source of information.....and it would be......if it were allowed.
Also, as to whats allowed, that is a bit selective too. You can't say that vendor x is selling fakes on ebay marked as being from a certain well known makers, but over the years much has been made about fake vintage knives being sold by named sellers, knives made from parts, knives with new blades welded to original tangs, etc. There are a lot of threads on this, how spot the fakes etc. These people have been outed and their activities revealed, why not the fakers from China that are actually stealing from current makers?