What's the relative micron size between bare leather, basswood, and balsa strops?

[Rey HRH]

I take it that bare leather, bare basswood, and balsa would be the smallest micron size for stropping otherwise, it wouldn't make sense that people put stropping compounds on them that are sometimes even 0.1 micron or the most popular green chromium oxide which is around .5 micron.

But when comparing bare leather, bare basswood, and balsa - which would have the smallest micron size? would think balsa would have a 'smaller micron' profile than basswood being that it's softer than basswood. Am I right? And where would leather come in?

 

[DeadboxHero]

That's a great question yet at the same time there is no abrasive particles so how can there be a micron size? I believe the results of these different mediums is based on burnishing, moving, realigning metal versus abrading, removing, shaping metal.

I'm open to learning though.

 

[bucketstove]

I take it that bare leather, bare basswood, and balsa would be the smallest micron size for stropping otherwise, it wouldn't make sense that people put stropping compounds on them that are sometimes even 0.1 micron or the most popular green chromium oxide which is around .5 micron.

But when comparing bare leather, bare basswood, and balsa - which would have the smallest micron size? would think balsa would have a 'smaller micron' profile than basswood being that it's softer than basswood. Am I right? And where would leather come in?

Hi,
I don't think I've heard of that before, stropping on bare wood as an actual step in polishing

Consider post11508452

The natural silicates in leather are reported to be sized from 0.1 down to 0.01. (Whether these reports are accurate or not is anyone's guess.)

This quoted number corresponds to Sodium silicate which is 2 to 100 nm in diameter or 0.002-0.1 micron or ????-160,000 grit

Also consider that these other sub micron abrasives do not reduce the width of smallest apexes , which normally seen on edges are about 0.3-0.5 microns ... The razor guys say it improves comfort and ease of face shaving.

 

[bucketstove]

That's a great question yet at the same time there is no abrasive particles so how can there be a micron size? I believe the results of these different mediums is based on burnishing, moving, realigning metal versus abrading, removing, shaping metal.

I'm open to learning though.

I think mostly realignment and cleaning(dirt wiping) considering how low on the Janka hardness basswood and balsa are rated.

On the other hand, there are those bamboo Phytolith things Bamboo Strike-A-Light

 

[HeavyHanded]

I take it that bare leather, bare basswood, and balsa would be the smallest micron size for stropping otherwise, it wouldn't make sense that people put stropping compounds on them that are sometimes even 0.1 micron or the most popular green chromium oxide which is around .5 micron.

But when comparing bare leather, bare basswood, and balsa - which would have the smallest micron size? would think balsa would have a 'smaller micron' profile than basswood being that it's softer than basswood. Am I right? And where would leather come in?

You will need a SEM to even begin the discussion (probably). All of these will be soaking up bioavailable silica salts and other minerals, most of which are in salt form - dissolved in water. Some uptake of oxides likely but to what extent I cannot imagine based on what's available in the soil or feed.

Any oxides that are part of the hide or cellular walls of the plant will be well embedded and likely only a very small percentage of their size will be exposed.

Good question...

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

I wouldn't worry at all, about the size of the natural silicates in most woods or leather. Unless the wood is actually dirty (with sand, other external grit, etc), you'll never notice it. I've occasionally stropped an edge on bare wood (balsa, basswood, oak, poplar) to knock burrs off; most recently, just a day or two ago on the polished bevels of a scandi laminated blade (Helle). That particular blade is laminated with 18-8 stainless, which is quite soft and will show scratches easily. When stropping on the bare wood, I looked for evidence of that and didn't see any new scratches at all. Whatever natural silicates are in the cellular structure of the wood (I think it's in cell walls, but I'm not certain of that), they're extremely small and nothing like the 'grit' we use in polishing or abrading our edges. As quoted from Stitchawl above, those silicates are likely orders of magnitude smaller than even something like green compound or sub-micron diamond. In 'stropping' with bare wood, I generally equate it with simply aligning a very fine edge, perhaps with a tiny bit of burnishing thrown in. Not much there to do any more than that.


David

 

[Rey HRH]

Hi,
I don't think I've heard of that before, stropping on bare wood as an actual step in polishing

Consider post11508452

This quoted number corresponds to Sodium silicate which is 2 to 100 nm in diameter or 0.002-0.1 micron or ????-160,000 grit

Also consider that these other sub micron abrasives do not reduce the width of smallest apexes , which normally seen on edges are about 0.3-0.5 microns ... The razor guys say it improves comfort and ease of face shaving.

I appreciate the link. Although, lots of information that makes my head swim at the moment.

I've read here that people strop on just about anything from newspaper, glossy magazine pages, leather, balsa, with or without compounds. I've taken it as stropping is a step in final sharpening or maintaining sharpness. Polishing may be a side effect or as some say "refinement" that adds to sharpness, although I know I think the debate is far from settled with regards to toothy vs smooth.

All i wanted to know is, since I just got myself about 4 square feet of genuine horse butt leather and 8 pieces of basswood, 6 of which I've cut to 3" x 10". I just wanted to get in my head how to arrange some sort of strop progression/selection ending with bare leather smooth side no compound. I suppose next to that would be smooth leather with .1 micron cbn or diamond followed by .5 micron. Don't know where flesh side up would fit in and what compound to use; although I know some say flesh side is for convex edges. Not sure where bare basswood would come in, if at all.

What I can contribute to the discussion is, I think I found an excellent deburrer in between stages. While some drag the edge through cork or wood or the scotch brite side of a kitchen sponge or a slightly higher angle on the same media they're using, I found 3000 trizact "sandpaper" used in car painting with it's ~6.5 micron to be faster and more effective and more reliable coming off stages above 800 Grit, 22 micron.

 

[HeavyHanded]

In general, I've noticed that plan copy paper can make scratches on steel (when used over a Washboard or coarse stone) that approximate to 6k JIS. This is not consistent - I cannot "sharpen" with a sheet of plain paper - and likely the result of fillers or whiteners in the paper. Virtually any compound applied over the top tends to eliminate this occurrence, but if I'm shooting for a really bright polish, I will not use plain paper above a "6K" finish, especially on broad bevels, though I will use it as final burnishing pass if the polish is not a driving concern.

The mineral content of wood at least has been studied as regards to ash. I have used wood ash as a stropping compound when camping and it worked very well. The percentage content of silca and aluminum oxides in ash is very high, with (as best I can find) sizes as small as submicron. I imagine it will depend on the location in the tree and the mineral content of the surrounding soils.

Bound up in the plant's cellular structure I have no idea where it would fall as an abrasive mineral size, or if it occurs with a frequency that would show when stropping.

When it comes to the leather you have a further complication, as any oxides have to get past the digestive wall - an easy trick for salts, but not so much for oxides, most will be excreted back out. Some for sure will be taken up but who knows at what size it can pass and at what concentration the body will begin to flush out excess.

Also, the tanning process, if I understand correctly, will introduce silicates into the mix in addition to what's in the flesh. I am probably speaking out of turn, but some tanning and curing processes seem to be geared toward flushing the most mineral content as possible to make the leather more supple, but this doesn't seem to be the norm. I have no idea what the average veg tanning process might contribute in terms of small oxides, or if the process for horsehide is any different than for cow hide.

Anyway, if applying compounds or abrasives to the material, the basswood is liable to make it cut a bit more deeply than the leather, even if cased hard. Any binder applied in addition to the abrasive in your compound is liable to negate all or most all of any inherent polishing effect the base material might have had.

For the rest, using it plain - just polish up a few samples and try them out - you should come up with a progression concept pretty quickly if there's one to be had.

 

[HeavyHanded]

A little more poking around on this topic as it fascinates me on several levels.

Solid particles as large as 5 micron and maybe larger can pass across the intestinal wall (very surprised) and move through the bloodstream, but cannot be taken up at the cellular level unless they are many times smaller - nanometers.

So just a guess but I'd imagine the micron range on any of the items to be anywhere from >5micron down to sub - sub micron, and at percentages all over the map.

Oh well, at least I confirmed good results from stropping on ashes isn't all in my head...

 

[DeadboxHero]

A little more poking around on this topic as it fascinates me on several levels.

Solid particles as large as 5 micron and maybe larger can pass across the intestinal wall (very surprised) and move through the bloodstream, but cannot be taken up at the cellular level unless they are many times smaller - nanometers.

So just a guess but I'd imagine the micron range on any of the items to be anywhere from >5micron down to sub - sub micron, and at percentages all over the map.

Oh well, at least I confirmed good results from stropping on ashes isn't all in my head...

Like wood ashes?

 

[bucketstove]

I appreciate the link. Although, lots of information that makes my head swim at the moment.
...
What I can contribute to the discussion is, I think I found an excellent deburrer in between stages. While some drag the edge through cork or wood or the scotch brite side of a kitchen sponge or a slightly higher angle on the same media they're using, I found 3000 trizact "sandpaper" used in car painting with it's ~6.5 micron to be faster and more effective and more reliable coming off stages above 800 Grit, 22 micron.

Hi,

Did you buy sandpaper online or in a brick and mortar store? What store and how much ?

for comparison, sharpmaker fine rods are about ~6 microns and ~15 bucks, and ultra fine rods are about 3 microns ... but even a single sheet of sandpaper ought to last "forever"


more reading basically says if you have jig/ultrafine sandpaper, don't bother with strop

BrentBeach/Sharpen/3m
Stropping/Lapping


I tried stropping on various papers , without compound, it mostly wiped clean the dirt/swarf from the edge, no improvement in cutting ability that I could see

FWIW, I deburr with double angle edge leading passes with under 100 grams of force (under 20 when my hand is steady) on 150-320 grit stones
I can shave easily and whittle beard hair ,
I cannot whittle head hair yet but sometimes I can force it / fake it
even the burr is sharp enough to whittle beard hair but not head hair

 

[HeavyHanded]

Like wood ashes?

Like right out of the edge of the fire pit. I have a small puck shaped natural silt stone I bring along, works great with water and makes a comparable edge to 400-600 grit. The shape some available wood to a flat if nothing naturally occurring is handy and apply some ash, strops up great - shaves arm hair very cleanly. I've stopped bringing medium sized knives when camping now and do 80% with my hatchet, the rest with a 3" Mora classic or similar.

I did some looking into it spurred buy this thread and the forestry service (among others) has ID'd quantities of silica dioxide and aluminum oxide as high as 40-50% of the total ash content. Maybe not ideal for some stainless but works great on the carbon steel of my hatchets and machetes.

 

[stitchawl]

Here is the definitive answer... There is NO difference between the micron 'size' of the natural silicates found in ANY organic substance.
The difference is in 'quantity' and 'availability.' The actual size is variable, but not dependent on which organic matter it's in.
The skin of your palm has the same size silicates as does Russian Leather Horsehide. There is just not as much of it on the surface of your skin as can be found on the surface of a piece of horsehide that has been properly processed via the 'Russian Leather' treatment. Your hand will work just as well, and produce just as good an edge, but require MANY more strokes than the processed horsehide due to the quantity of silicates available.


Stitchawl

 

[DeadboxHero]

Like right out of the edge of the fire pit. I have a small puck shaped natural silt stone I bring along, works great with water and makes a comparable edge to 400-600 grit. The shape some available wood to a flat if nothing naturally occurring is handy and apply some ash, strops up great - shaves arm hair very cleanly. I've stopped bringing medium sized knives when camping now and do 80% with my hatchet, the rest with a 3" Mora classic or similar.

I did some looking into it spurred buy this thread and the forestry service (among others) has ID'd quantities of silica dioxide and aluminum oxide as high as 40-50% of the total ash content. Maybe not ideal for some stainless but works great on the carbon steel of my hatchets and machetes.

Wow, cool stuff

Thank you

 

[Rey HRH]

Hi,

Did you buy sandpaper online or in a brick and mortar store? What store and how much ?

for comparison, sharpmaker fine rods are about ~6 microns and ~15 bucks, and ultra fine rods are about 3 microns ... but even a single sheet of sandpaper ought to last "forever"


more reading basically says if you have jig/ultrafine sandpaper, don't bother with strop

BrentBeach/Sharpen/3m
Stropping/Lapping


I tried stropping on various papers , without compound, it mostly wiped clean the dirt/swarf from the edge, no improvement in cutting ability that I could see

FWIW, I deburr with double angle edge leading passes with under 100 grams of force (under 20 when my hand is steady) on 150-320 grit stones
I can shave easily and whittle beard hair ,
I cannot whittle head hair yet but sometimes I can force it / fake it
even the burr is sharp enough to whittle beard hair but not head hair

Thanks for the new reading material. I see it presents one side of the debate. I can't fault him for his methods and the results he got. Experientially, I have the same result but I put it on my technique or lack thereof. Plus I like the argument that barbers use it and it appears to work.

One part of his argument is a non-argument: he says if you hone down to .5 micron then stropping will only worsen your edge. I think that's an obvious fact in light of his discovery that .5 micron advertise can actually contain bigger particles.

I bought the sandpaper (with soft backing) from the online jungle. I bought the 3000 and 5000. but looking at the size difference, 3000 would be most effective and there's no point to using the 5000. It's about 4 microns. The price was about 8 bucks, free shipping.

 

[Rey HRH]

Like right out of the edge of the fire pit. I have a small puck shaped natural silt stone I bring along, works great with water and makes a comparable edge to 400-600 grit. The shape some available wood to a flat if nothing naturally occurring is handy and apply some ash, strops up great - shaves arm hair very cleanly. I've stopped bringing medium sized knives when camping now and do 80% with my hatchet, the rest with a 3" Mora classic or similar.

I did some looking into it spurred buy this thread and the forestry service (among others) has ID'd quantities of silica dioxide and aluminum oxide as high as 40-50% of the total ash content. Maybe not ideal for some stainless but works great on the carbon steel of my hatchets and machetes.

I had a great grandmother who had access to a bakery that used wood in their ovens. She would get the ashes and used it to clean her pots and pans. What you say is aligned with her practice.

 

[HeavyHanded]

Thanks for the new reading material. I see it presents one side of the debate. I can't fault him for his methods and the results he got. Experientially, I have the same result but I put it on my technique or lack thereof. Plus I like the argument that barbers use it and it appears to work.

One part of his argument is a non-argument: he says if you hone down to .5 micron then stropping will only worsen your edge. I think that's an obvious fact in light of his discovery that .5 micron advertise can actually contain bigger particles.

I bought the sandpaper (with soft backing) from the online jungle. I bought the 3000 and 5000. but looking at the size difference, 3000 would be most effective and there's no point to using the 5000. It's about 4 microns. The price was about 8 bucks, free shipping.

Brent's site is great and no doubt he is making some first rate cutting edges, but there are some assertions on there that don't jibe with my own experience.

Stropping contains many variables, so a blanket statement that applies to it is overreaching IMHO. When he strops he sees it degrade the edge, that might not hold true for a larger sample of individuals and materials. To my understanding, backhoning on films IS a form of stropping, as these 3 mil films are hardly incompressible, just put a micrometer on a sample and observe how little force is needed to squeeze a variety of readings from it. On occasion I actually use blank 3 mil polyester and dose it with diamond dust and binder for a strop - the paper I normally use degrades too rapidly to justify using with the more expensive diamond abrasive.

Lee Valley honing compound has a range of grit sizes on purpose, just as Flexcut Gold. It is intended to restore and refine the edge for carvers especially - folk that cannot stop to resharpen their tools multiple times a day and need a strop with more horsepower. This material has already come under fire from the straight razor community, again due to misapplication of the product.

The Formax microhoning compound sold at Woodcraft has a very tight particle distribution close to .5 micron throughout and is intended to be used as a final step - this would have been a much better choice, especially if any conclusions are to be drawn where quality is dependent on this factor.

@Rey HRH, I generally deburr on the belts by folding the burr taller with a light drag at 90° on a hardwood dowel, then manually remove with whatever belt is mounted. For finish deburring I always end with some hand work. I have yet to find a powered means that is 100% for this step, though plenty close for 99% of users.

 

[bucketstove]

Brent's site is great and no doubt he is making some first rate cutting edges, but there are some assertions on there that don't jibe with my own experience.

Stropping contains many variables, so a blanket statement that applies to it is overreaching IMHO. When he strops he sees it degrade the edge, that might not hold true for a larger sample of individuals and materials. To my understanding, backhoning on films IS a form of stropping, as these 3 mil films are hardly incompressible, just put a micrometer on a sample and observe how little force is needed to squeeze a variety of readings from it.

Hi, I would be interested to read your experiment reports

FWIW, brent isn't exactly breaking new ground with his claim,
seems to agree with verhoeven and cliff stamps work
if you do everything correctly on quality "stones"
then stropping on an improvised stone (leather+compound) degrades the edge

 

[Rey HRH]

Mulling over what I've taken in thus far and I go back and forth.

I can see how soft leather and wood is compared to steel and say how's that going to change the knife. I started to think maybe stropping is simply removing whatever burrs there are on the edge and that makes for a smooth shave. I've felt how burrs on the edge feel against your skin.

On the other hand, Carter Murray makes sense when he says that if it can dull a knife, it can sharpen a knife. But then again, his stropping isn't fancy except for he likes Japanese newspaper as stropping material.

 

[HeavyHanded]

Hi, I would be interested to read your experiment reports

FWIW, brent isn't exactly breaking new ground with his claim,
seems to agree with verhoeven and cliff stamps work
if you do everything correctly on quality "stones"
then stropping on an improvised stone (leather+compound) degrades the edge

What sort of experiment reports would you like to see?

Here's the rub, the straight razor community has a multitude of images taken at higher resolution than Brent or Cliff can muster, showing some amazing edge finish and apex work. This isn't personal preference, if the variables are properly managed one gets good results and if they aren't one won't. If the stones were all that was needed to achieve a great shave they wouldn't bother with strops. And since nobody is paying either of these gents to make their razor shave-ready, I don't see why I would give them the last word on the topic compared to someone like Lynn Abrams.

I cannot speak to Verhoeven's research, but he reported a marked reduction in grind marks etc as a result of using a pasted strop.

I did a considerable bit of homework on this topic myself and discovered there were too many variables to make blanket statements, as strop surface, density, abrasive percentage, binder etc etc all play contributing roles in the process. A "strop" can be made to very closely approximate the effects from a waterstone. It can be anything from a very compressible piece of leather or cuirboulli, to rubber, canvas, soft or hardwood with a variety of surface textures, a resin block loaded with abrasive etc etc and get huge variety of results.

Even within the "traditional" understanding of the word, if someone wanted to make definitive statements about a particular leather strop at a given Shore value and with a given amount of force applied and with a known abrasive quality and quantity, that's a different story. You will find that level of research non-existent or unpublished at the least, yet conclusions abound with little regard for the variables.

As it stands I might as well try to sharpen dull s30v on the underside of a mixing bowl, and when it fails claim that ceramics cannot work steel with any Vanadium carbides. I could even include some micrographs of the dull edge to prove my point...