What's the relative micron size between bare leather, basswood, and balsa strops?

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I did a considerable bit of homework on this topic myself and discovered there were too many variables to make blanket statements, as strop surface, density, abrasive percentage, binder etc etc all play contributing roles in the process. ....

When you look at the effect of stropping in detail (at high magnification) there are basically just two processes occurring. There is what i would call the "wrap-around" effect, which occurs on a compressible surface when the apex is "pushed in" to the substrate - this is responsible for both micro-convexity and burr removal. The second is simple abrasion (and maybe burnishing) from the side which reduces the apex width and improves keenness. These two processes compete with each other to varying degrees, and that is what produces the range of outcomes.


Some of these concepts are illustrated at https://scienceofsharp.wordpress.com/2015/10/30/burr-removal-part-1/ for anyone who is inclined to study the images in detail.
 
When you look at the effect of stropping in detail (at high magnification) there are basically just two processes occurring. There is what i would call the "wrap-around" effect, which occurs on a compressible surface when the apex is "pushed in" to the substrate - this is responsible for both micro-convexity and burr removal. The second is simple abrasion (and maybe burnishing) from the side which reduces the apex width and improves keenness. These two processes compete with each other to varying degrees, and that is what produces the range of outcomes.


Some of these concepts are illustrated at https://scienceofsharp.wordpress.com/2015/10/30/burr-removal-part-1/ for anyone who is inclined to study the images in detail.

Todd, thanks for the link. Is interesting that most folk who denigrate all forms of stropping generally favor micobevels, which functionally produce nearly the same effect.

To the above you could also add lapping action, if the surface is hard enough, though the "wrap around" effect will diminish in relation to increases in density. At around that point and perhaps much earlier, the effect of abrasive mobility will exert itself with increasing authority. The variety of finishes expand considerably based on substrate density, at what level of resistance the abrasive will free itself from the substrate, how much binder material and how the binder material interacts with the substrate etc etc.

And then as the substrate density increases so might the amount of burnishing.

I recall during one tinkering session looking through my microscope at 640x and seeing a clear, flat microbevel with a defined shoulder, of perhaps 10 micron width produced on a strop made from wax-hardened leather dosed with .5 micron AlumOx - "Whaaat?...". Unqualified statements out the window, there are too many variables.

My apologies for hijacking this thread, I'm not sure we're linked in any way to the OP at this point.
 
What sort of experiment reports would you like to see?
Anything you've published, just link it if you can

HeavyHanded said:
Here's the rub, the straight razor community...blanket statements, as strop surface, density, abrasive percentage, binder ...
Um, wow :) Isn't that just more blanket statements?

HeavyHanded said:
... denigrate all forms of stropping ...
I haven't seen any "denigration" , that seems like a misreading
 
I have nothing published. Without defining the variables there's no point except to share some fiddling about that other people cannot replicate. Something useful might come of it, but also might produce a bunch of unfounded conclusions. I can link to a large number of micrographs and describe the circumstances surrounding each, but will not prove or disprove anything.

If by "Blanket Statement" you mean attempting to isolate the variables then no, that's not a blanket statement. Nor is it a blanket statement to mention that the edge damage that Brent micrographed and Cliff claims to occur, are not present in all other folks research or micrographs. As another example, I am not claiming "stropping makes an edge better" or any such nonsense (that would be a blanket statement). There are a heap of ways to shape, finish and maintain an edge, of which stropping is one - all of which have their pros and cons.

The denigration comment was a general statement not referring to Brent's research, as he actually qualifies many of his conclusions.

And for the heck of it, here is a series at 400x showing some of what I mean re blanket statements pertaining to stropping - first pic is off an India stone, second is the same edge following a few passes on Flexcut Gold on leather strop, last pic is a few passes on Flexcut on paper over the coarse side of the same India stone. Sadly I cannot accurately describe how hard the leather strop was, how much force applied etc etc...

CSV_1.jpg


CSV_2.jpg


CSV_3.jpg
 
I often read the claim that there are "too many variables" and therefore it's impossible to "prove" anything. However, that's what makes a problem suited to the scientific method, rather than the trial & error, engineering approach.

In my opinion, the first step to understanding stropping is to set aside the concept of "grit" or at least the assumption that grit and keenness/sharpness are correlated.
 
I often read the claim that there are "too many variables" and therefore it's impossible to "prove" anything. However, that's what makes a problem suited to the scientific method, rather than the trial & error, engineering approach.

In my opinion, the first step to understanding stropping is to set aside the concept of "grit" or at least the assumption that grit and keenness/sharpness are correlated.

Well, you can certainly prove some factors, but wthout context they don't have a lot of predictive value - this is my gripe when folk draw blanket conclusions re stropping (and some other means and technique for that matter). Even when talking about media that are relatively stable like a Norton Econo stone there is going to be a large range of user observations based on individual understanding and execution. For the scientific method to work, we need a question to be answered, a hypothesis based on observable phenomena, and a means to quantify and influence those phenomena.

If we start with the question "what does stropping do to a cutting edge?", we then need to make some observations, but of what - surely just looking at the edge isn't going to cut it. The edge, the strop density and surface characteristics, the abrasive, the amount of applied force, what are we forgetting...? Oh yeah, the type and HT of the steel might be helpful.

The variables are many, especially if your goal is to come up with tests that other people can replicate with accuracy. Lacking that it is still interesting to note what's happening with impromptu noodling, but at the best one can only spot gross trends and not anything predictive. Leaving terms like "grit" aside, one could at least build a model of one abrasive sample in a handful of applications and the observable effects, whatever they might be.

I tossed most of my notes with exception of the formulas, but when mixing up the compound for my Washboard project I noticed even small tweaks to the abrasive mix and binder ratios made a difference, and that all on the same test surface. On top of that, every additional sheet of paper changes the unit pressure and amount of surface give - changing the finish on the edge, the amount of edge wrap, rate of loading, contribution of burnishing...

To put it together I'd have to begin with Shore A and D durometers. Then one can figure out a comparative means of measuring/estimating unit pressure, leading (I would think) to a very good predictive model of edge rounding at given geometries per edge width/applied force/speed (all controlled for by steel type and RC of course!). We're already getting into it pretty deep at this point and haven't conducted a single test, but how else to put the results in context. I am certain if you checked a handful of commercial and homemade strops the values would be all over the map, as would the abrasive holding force of different compound binders and their abrasive content. Sounds crazy, but these are all variables that don't exist to the same extent with most sharpening stones yet have a lot of influence.

In the micrographs above that is the same abrasive but with very different unit pressures although IIRC applied force was nearly the same.

This is why I don't consider most of what's out there on the topic to be research so much as observations based on tinkering - therefore not worthy of conclusion outside the specifics of the actual tinkering/individual.

I suspect anyone who really delves into this without being paid good money to do so might rapidly lose their mind.
 
And for the heck of it, here is a series at 400x showing some of what I mean re blanket statements pertaining to stropping - first pic is off an India stone, second is the same edge following a few passes on Flexcut Gold on leather strop, last pic is a few passes on Flexcut on paper over the coarse side of the same India stone. Sadly I cannot accurately describe how hard the leather strop was, how much force applied etc etc...

And yet, I take it that the pictures aren't happenstance or accidental outcomes, correct? That, if you were inclined to do so, you can reliably repeat your results using some "method" and that you do so anyway - except probably for the documentation part, right?

(And I'm not doubting your integrity at all because I very much like that last picture) That last picture looks too perfect. There's also maybe a "touch and feel" part of the process that can't be scientifically quantified like a professional golf swing. They can try and break it down for you but, really, in the end there's a lot happening to be able to say, do this and that using whatever to get such a result.
 
And yet, I take it that the pictures aren't happenstance or accidental outcomes, correct? That, if you were inclined to do so, you can reliably repeat your results using some "method" and that you do so anyway - except probably for the documentation part, right?

(And I'm not doubting your integrity at all because I very much like that last picture) That last picture looks too perfect. There's also maybe a "touch and feel" part of the process that can't be scientifically quantified like a professional golf swing. They can try and break it down for you but, really, in the end there's a lot happening to be able to say, do this and that using whatever to get such a result.

I absolutely could, yes. In fact those pics are a few years old and my technique is improved including my micrograph taking abilities, so it would be even more apparent. I could also guide someone else to do so, but maybe not without detailed instructions.

The effect IS impressive, and edge rounding is very mild. The edge went from off the stone shear cutting paper and shaving a bit of arm hair, to shaving arm hair and crosscutting paper, to treetopping hair. Believe it or not I recall making a reference nick in the bevel above the image area, so all three images are essentially of the same region.

The unit pressure of the abrasive and underlying stone is so high if a piece of grit gets caught between the two it will deform the edge - push it out like a fold in a drape, with very little force. I get a similar effect on a Washboard but the abrasive presentation tends to be much more aggressive rather than the effect of the paper over the stone - which tends to make a very polished edge but with very little tooth left - as evidenced from the images. Also the Washboard has a uniform pattern that prevents "breakout" pressure spikes that can arise from uneven/singular points of contact.

This is Flexcut Gold off a hard leather strop coming off the India stone. Note the finish is somewhere between the earlier softer leather strop and the stone over paper.
Gold_640.jpg


And this one is .5 CrO on paper over a Washboard - note how the abrasive tracks are more defined than the nominally larger Flexcut on paper over a stone, despite being a finer abrasive. Also note that some folks believe abrasives in that range are only capable of burnishing when applied to a strop - this also not true as the edge was done on 600 grit wet/dry prior to the compound treatment. To top it off, this is over two sheets of paper - over one sheet the abrasive tracks are even more pronounced. Scale upper left is just under 4 micron.

CrO_400_2layers_zpsaa813ba3.jpg


Also note there there is essentially zero edge rounding. In fact when the strop surface becomes hard enough the "failure mode" is microfracturing of the apex, with very little rounding aside from what is induced by the user, or what is revealed as the previous grind pattern is worn away.

This is really getting at what I mean when I say statements that begin with "Stropping is..." really need more description, and also why it is not easy to get an overall handle on it. Yes one can readily point to single examples but to extrapolate conclusions based on that would not be a good idea.

Edit to add:
it would be relatively easy for folks to experiment using a sheet of paper over a stone at various amounts of force etc. One the things you will also notice is there is a difference between using the smooth side of the combination stone and the coarse side (less rounding off the coarse side). You will notice that plain paper over the coarse side of a stone induces more burnishing than the fine side (evidenced by increases in shine on a satin finished surface), which barely produces any even with a comparable amount of force.

Is even likely, going back the OP, that you will see differences in using the balsa and bass wood wet or dry, after scuffing up the surfaces with sandpaper or a hacksaw blade etc etc.
 
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Well, you can certainly prove some factors, but wthout context they don't have a lot of predictive value - this is my gripe when folk draw blanket conclusions re stropping (and some other means and technique for that matter). Even when talking about media that are relatively stable like a Norton Econo stone there is going to be a large range of user observations based on individual understanding and execution. For the scientific method to work, we need a question to be answered, a hypothesis based on observable phenomena, and a means to quantify and influence those phenomena. ....

There are many ways in which the scientific method can be applied. I have earned my living for the past 25 years applying the scientific method to solving problems no less complex than this one. You are correct that we need to identify questions to be answered; however, my experience has been that nobody who frequents internet forums cares about the answer to those questions unless they seem to confirm their pre-existing beliefs.
 
Well, Todd, Martin,

Your posts are educational and I appreciate all the effort & sharing/teaching. Some of us do like the theory being put to test.
Thank you! :thumbup:
 
There are many ways in which the scientific method can be applied. I have earned my living for the past 25 years applying the scientific method to solving problems no less complex than this one. You are correct that we need to identify questions to be answered; however, my experience has been that nobody who frequents internet forums cares about the answer to those questions unless they seem to confirm their pre-existing beliefs.

Yeah, it can be tough to counter folks biases (myself included). Especially if they are proficient in one method or technique and not another they are very susceptible to believing the issue is the suspect technique itself and not their application of it. I had to eat my entire boot after taking a close look at the process of steeling.
 
I absolutely could, yes. In fact those pics are a few years old and my technique is improved including my micrograph taking abilities, so it would be even more apparent. I could also guide someone else to do so, but maybe not without detailed instructions.

If ever you decide to start teaching your secrets or methods, please sign me up. Very impressive edges.
 
Hey, thanks for that.

I have a bunch of videos under "Neuman 2010", and the first video on the website linked below is a good primer. A bit remedial in some respects, but then it all comes back to basics. Start at the 7 minute mark to skip the product specific intro.

I recently made one showing some fine tuning freehand:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuGwd9YZ8_g

And the application of it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DWdfhnpBe0

I am a huge proponent of listening with the fingertips and sharpening primarily on tactile feedback. The rest is simply managing the mechanics so one can take advantage of that feedback.

Was well down that road by the time I came up with the Washboard concept, but no doubt it cemented my ability to control not only angles, but edge to grind path and side to side consistency. In fact it was one of the beta testers that pointed out to me the tactile boost, I initially felt the value was 100% as a strop/base texture for film and paper mounted abrasives.

In the the "fine tuning" video I make mention of how helpful consistent grind angles are to me when trouble shooting, removing burrs etc. I don't consider myself an expert by any means, but then when it comes to sharpening stuff I also don't bestow that title lightly on others either. I could (and do) go on and on with the specifics of my entire philosophy such that it is, should you care to ask - burrs, edge trailing vs edge leading, stropping, steeling, high carbide steels etc etc - some of which I actually have a handle on :D. The hard part is getting me to shut up...

Martin
 
Martin,

Thanks for the video update. On shorter video where you went full speed, what is the reason of several long pulls to the left around minute 1 into the video?
 
Chris "Anagarika";15816218 said:
Martin,

Thanks for the video update. On shorter video where you went full speed, what is the reason of several long pulls to the left around minute 1 into the video?

Chris, because I work at a 45° path to the edge, the very heel where it meets the ricasso will develop a small triangle of unground steel behind the intersection of heel and ricasso, right at the plunge. To make sure I nail it, I will jump in on the edge just above that point to first establish my angle and then a few long passes to grind it as tight as possible. I'm not going to sweat a slight flare, but an obvious one is no good.

The same method on the opposite side is right around 26 seconds - establish the angle and then a few longish pulls. I don't scrub when doing that move, have found just a few long pulls is more steady. The area is too small to really scrub, and having contact with the ricasso at the same time negates a lot of the tactile awareness, so is the one spot where I go by muscle memory.

Doing it like this also saves the outside corner of my waterstones and wet/dry over WB from getting beat up when working at a fast pace.
 
Thank you. I learned a lot although my method is stone in one hand and knife in the other. The principle is the same though, keeping constant angle & what's effective to control wobble. The 45°sweep is very useful to me.
:thumbup:
 
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