What's with all the de-assisting?

[willc]

Some knives just feel better with the AO removed.
The ZT 0566 is the perfect example for me.

I still like the AO feature on other knives though, the Leek is one that I really like with AO.
Really it is all up to personal preference.

 

[TX_planes]

OP, thanks for posting the question. I have often wondered by one would buy an A/O only to de-assist the knife. I now understand why. There are several valid reasons.

 

[Charlie Mike]

The wave mod just doesn't work reliably with the AO.

 

[AF]

I de-assisted my mini barrage because I couldn't easily close it one-handed.

 

[EZ Bake]

Sorry to hear this, I had heard that AO was legal everywhere though with so many state laws changing not to mention how any LEO might interpret laws I guess it's not surprising.

Don't forget city ordinances - this becomes a huge pain and is one of the reasons I de-assist.

The other is that I often let other folks use my folders and I hate having to warn them and then worry about them hurting themselves or dropping my knife because it springs out and they weren't expecting it.

I've also become way into having a folder whose action is smooth as glass. I find that breaking a folder in and then disassembling, cleaning, and polishing the washers on a leather strop with some 3.5 micron paste and then adding a good lube makes for a machine that works beautifully without any need for an assist spring.

I will say that I like my assisted opening knives, but one of my favorite knives, is my ZT 801, partly because it has symmetrical scales, but partly because it is so smooth of an action--unassisted.

That thing is pure awesome isn't it? I'm loving mine.

 

[Comeuppance]

Several reasons for me:
- I don't trust AO, as I don't like the idea of a knife accidentally opening on my pocket and the fix - safeties - add unnecessary complication to the operation of the knife.
- Fewer parts = less potential for failure.
- I don't like the extra force needed to close AO knives.
- I'm all about the feel of smooth, manual pivot action.
- AO knives are restricted in many areas
- Noise reduction - too much of a THWACK draws attention
- I mentally associate AO with subpar knives *coughSOGGERBERSMITHANDWESSONSCHRADEBOKERMAGNUMFURYcough*

 

[grownstar]

Got this bad boy in the mail yesterday. First time trying a Blur de-assisted. I like it!

 

[Charlie_K]

So how exactly does one go about de-assisting a knife anyway?

 

[Comeuppance]

So how exactly does one go about de-assisting a knife anyway?

Removing the spring, then adding a detent hole in the tang if needed.

 

[grownstar]

So how exactly does one go about de-assisting a knife anyway?

Just depends on the make and model, really. For example, my Blur already had a detent hole drilled into the blade. All I needed to do was open her up with my Torx bits, take out the torsion bar and put her back together. Viola! It now fires just as fast when I want it to, or I can slowly/deliberatly roll the blade out.

Other models, like my Kershaw Knockout, have no such detent hole. If you take the torsion bar out, there will be no force keeping the blade closed. It will be flapping all over the place. So you would have to take the knife apart, find exactly where the detent ball rests when closed, and drill a hole into the blade. I have no experience doing this, but I did just send that same knife over to Charlie Mike and he's gonna do that mod for me.

As far as knives with springs, well I don't have much experience in that department. Perhaps another member can sound off on that one?

 

[Blackie Scantling]

My first assisted flipper was a Kershaw Kuro and is my current EDC. Driving home from Wallyworld I was flipping it open and planning on how to de assist it because although I liked everything else about it size, blade design I didn't think the flipper was necessary and didn't think it could match the reliability and speed of my manual Kershaw. I practiced with it to try and get familiar and up to speed and ended up breaking the skinny wire linkage. Kershaw sent me a new one and I think I have the speed thing down now to where I'm happy with it.
I wished I had asked for two wire linkages though to keep one as a back up because someday, like everything else, this model I'm sure will be discontinued.

 

[midnight flyer]

I think it is a knife culture thing. Since I have been hanging around here for about 5 years or so, most folks want exactly what isn't available.

Someone will post an announcement that a new knife is coming out from a favorite manufacturer, only to disappoint many that is isn't coming out in their favorite steel.

Another time a new knife will be widely acclaimed but won't be purchased because although they have five different handle material choices, some only want a material that isn't available.

Same thing with blade shapes, sheaths, finishes, etc.

And I think for some they like to tinker and make the knife "their own" by a tiny bit modification. In the now defunct Kershaw forum (maybe the first version) it was noted by Thomas that it was easy enough to take the torsion bar out of most Kershaw knives and that some models were designed with that ease in mind.

For me, since there are so many thousands of knives out there available practically overnight, I simply buy what I need/want in the first place. I have both and gladly use both assisted and non assisted.

Robert

 

[fetzer85]

The Kershaw Blur is probably the best example I can think of personally. I really like the design of the knife. The handle & blade proportions are nearly perfect for me, but I don't like the assisted open feature. Why not? Many reasons.

For me it adds no benefit, only liability. I have no trouble opening my knives with one hand. If this wasn't the case (ie. arthritis, injury, etc.) then I may very well consider them. Also sometimes my wife, daughter, friend, etc. asks to use my knife (or I offer it) and I don't want them having to deal with a knife 'flying open' for no real reason. Honestly, if you're a non-knife person opening an assisted knife, I could easily see some models coming out of your hand. There are other reasons but those quickly came to mind.

You're right, it would be nice if all assisted models came with an unassisted counterpart however that often is not the case.

 

[Snipe315]

To me, this sounds a lot like the old Revolver vs Semi-auto handgun debate.

Some feel AO knives are too "tactical", less reliable, and offer less control. They feel a manually opening knife can be just as fast, more reliable, and offers more control then any AO system. Times & technology change as do people's preferences.

 

[midnight flyer]

SNIP

...I don't like the assisted open feature. Why not? Many reasons.

For me it adds no benefit, only liability. I have no trouble opening my knives with one hand. If this wasn't the case (ie. arthritis, injury, etc.) then I may very well consider them. Also sometimes my wife, daughter, friend, etc. asks to use my knife (or I offer it) and I don't want them having to deal with a knife 'flying open' for no real reason. Honestly, if you're a non-knife person opening an assisted knife, I could easily see some models coming out of your hand. There are other reasons but those quickly came to mind.

I can understand all of those reasons and appreciate the intelligent response. Good stuff.

But for me, the assisted openers do well. I have been working in the trades for the better part of 40 years now, and my hands are arthritic. Not awfully so, but in the cold weather sometimes they just won't work. Thankfully, I live in South Texas!

The assisted open makes it easy to get the blade out and properly locked up. This is a big boon when the hands are not playing well that day, if I am wearing gloves, or if I am trying to cut/trim something while holding onto a ladder or scaffold support.

As for lending my knives, I pretty much quit doing that as most folks don't know how to treat them. It wasn't a safety issue for me, it was the fact that if lent it might come back after having been used as a scraper or prybar.

On the other hand, I almost always carry two knives. I carry a large work knife and then a smaller traditional pattern. If I am not at work or doing a project with my amigos all I carry is a medium stockman or something small along those lines. To me the whole assisted open just makes it a better/easier tool for me to use for work. Even when at a client's house I can let the blade flick open with the spine on my pant leg and then gently open it if I am worried about the client's perception. Since all my AOs are larger knives, they rarely see the light of day unless I really need them simply because I don't want to listen to any commentary from non-knife people.

Robert

 

[rsngfrce]

Throwing in my two cents as a relatively new collector.... at first I thought assisted knives were THE WAY TO GO and could not understand why anyone would prefer non-assisted knives. While I have many assisted knives and don't foresee myself de-assisting any of them, as my collection has grown, I have developed a great appreciated for 'good' non-assisted knives (and by 'good', I am referring specifically to their ease of opening). Of the top of my head, I feel that my SpyderCo Tenacious and my Ontario Rat 1's and 2's (all non-assisted) open far more easily and smoothly then any of my assisted knives that I can think of. (Side question: The Ontario Rats open/close so well, why in the hell do they feel the need to add assisted-opening to them this year? I supposed because a lot of people still don't realize how good a non-assisted knive CAN be). Also, while relatively uncommon, I find the assist in some knives to be so week that I have to still flip my wrist to get them open (SOG Slimjim is one of these for me, but I'm considering sending that back for warranty service). On the other hand, I find my ZT 0550 (non-assisted) very difficult to open, the thumb studs seem to me poorly positioned to allow the knive to be open and I have yet to develop the ability to open it consistently (though the thumb studs ARE very effective at making my thumb sore). So, where I currently stand is that a good non-assisted knife is better than most assisted knives, but most assisted knives are better than poorly designed non-assisted knives.

 

[fetzer85]

I can understand all of those reasons and appreciate the intelligent response. Good stuff.

...

Robert

Thank you sir. All your points also make sense. I guess that just goes to show that respecting differences makes more sense than saying WHY WOULD SOMEONE EVER...

(Side question: The Ontario Rats open/close so well, why in the hell do they feel the need to add assisted-opening to them this year? I supposed because a lot of people still don't realize how good a non-assisted knive CAN be).

...

On the other hand, I find my ZT 0550 (non-assisted) very difficult to open, the thumb studs seem to me poorly positioned to allow the knive to be open and I have yet to develop the ability to open it consistently (though the thumb studs ARE very effective at making my thumb sore).

Agreed 100% on the RATs...they fly open with maybe 1/4 of my flicking effort. We all have our likes though so all the fans of AO knives will try them I'm sure.

My 0550 is definitely harder to flick open than say my RATs however I can still flick it open 100% of the time. I make sure the stud is firm on my thumb just below the nail, that my hand is far up enough on the handle to allow my thumb to make a full flicking motion, and then give it a nice hard flick directly up. (not out) Does the blade move smoothly & easily once it's past the detent? If not you may consider loosening the pivot screw ever so slightly. If it does move easily though then I have a feeling your just fighting a strong detent. If it's within your comfort zone you could try removing a super slim amount from the detent ball to ease the opening.

 

[stog75]

Throwing in my two cents as a relatively new collector.... at first I thought assisted knives were THE WAY TO GO and could not understand why anyone would prefer non-assisted knives. While I have many assisted knives and don't foresee myself de-assisting any of them, as my collection has grown, I have developed a great appreciated for 'good' non-assisted knives (and by 'good', I am referring specifically to their ease of opening). Of the top of my head, I feel that my SpyderCo Tenacious and my Ontario Rat 1's and 2's (all non-assisted) open far more easily and smoothly then any of my assisted knives that I can think of. (Side question: The Ontario Rats open/close so well, why in the hell do they feel the need to add assisted-opening to them this year? I supposed because a lot of people still don't realize how good a non-assisted knive CAN be). Also, while relatively uncommon, I find the assist in some knives to be so week that I have to still flip my wrist to get them open (SOG Slimjim is one of these for me, but I'm considering sending that back for warranty service). On the other hand, I find my ZT 0550 (non-assisted) very difficult to open, the thumb studs seem to me poorly positioned to allow the knive to be open and I have yet to develop the ability to open it consistently (though the thumb studs ARE very effective at making my thumb sore). So, where I currently stand is that a good non-assisted knife is better than most assisted knives, but most assisted knives are better than poorly designed non-assisted knives.

Rsngfrse: I don't remember where I saw it, but read the 0560 and other 05XX non- assisted knives are designed to be opened using the flipper. The 'thumbstuds' are actually blade stops and not designed to be thumbstuds used for opening. Who knew? I didn't, and couldn't figure out why for the life of me couldn't even overcome the detent let alone open and deploy the blade using the 'thumbstuds'. That's when I did the research and found that little nugget of information. Who knew the geometry and placement of the thumbstuds were so critical.

After a closer inspection, noticed the distance of the blade stop relative to the axis of the pivot is quite small compared to the distance of other knives with a true thumbstud. Made sense- That distance doesn't provide the 'moment arm' needed to comfortably use blade stop as a thumbstud. It can be done, but not without damn near poking a hole thru my thumb. Sorry for geeking out there, but I HAD to find out for myself the WHY.

 

[jon1all]

Many others have already chimed in, but as a person who generally doesn't like AO knives I'll give my $.02 as to why I don't like 'em and why I de-assist them... if they'll allow it.

1) I don't like it when a razor sharp piece of steel fights back when I am trying to close the knife. If you've ever had your thumb slip off the blade when attempting to close it and had the blade accidentally re-deploy you'd probably appreciate my perspective. If you've ever had wet or sweaty hands and had the handle of a knife inadvertently push across your palm as you were trying to close it because the spring fought you and the traction on the spine of the handle gave out (and then either dropped or almost dropped the knife because of it) you'd see why I dislike AO.

2) AO ruins the smoothness of the pivot. Perfect case in point is the ZT0566 AO knife. De-assisted the 0566 is an incredibly smooth knife. A joy to deploy and close. AO completely negates that very desirable smoothness.

3) It can be very difficult to open an AO knife discreetly (at work or elsewhere) without the signature THWACK of the blade slamming open.

4) The spring/torsion bar is just another part to fail. K.I.S.S.

All this said, I do have some AO knives. Those that I could de-assist I have... those that I can't I just live with. But the AO knives I have don't get nearly as much pocket time as the non-AO knives... not even close.

Just my $.02.

 

[Stays Sharp]

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