Which axe for felling dead trees?

[Square_peg]

I guess I didn’t realize how big a problem the ash borer is for you guys. Here in Washington, the department has a bulletin about it, but I wonder how much of that is chicken littling because Ash is kind of an ornamental here. We certainly don’t have any sizable even-aged stands.

They eat the cambium layer, right? Any evidence of them infesting other species?

Parker

EAB has made it to the NW and is expected to kill our native Oregon ash. https://www.portland.gov/trees/eab

 

[EngrSorenson]

I'm under the impression for dead logs/ really hard stuff I want a thinner profile with a stouter secondary bevel?

Seems folks have gotten side-tracked with the nature of the task, which is more interesting and possibly the biggest rub, but I feel you need an answer to your question.
Experiences may vary, but with dead wood I think you've got the right idea.
Thicker bit profiles aid in busting out chips in green wood because green wood is spongier and generally you can penetrate more with a less penetration-oriented profile.
Making big chips is relatively easy.
With dead wood it doesn't budge as easy- the thinner bits help to recover some of the missing penetration, and still can lever out chips, though they tend to be a bit more "sticky".

I like the Woox Forte axe for a boys axe-sized alternative to a more typical axe. The design gives a high centerline ridge to a generally thin bit profile.
I find it's a good compromise for cutting dead stuff.

And to this, might I add that an EN 12492 compliant hard hat is the way to go. Most helmets we see are ANSI Z89.1 compliant, which protects from a direct strike from above. But if you get thrown, or if a branch comes from an unexpected angle, you may need front/back/side impact protection, and only the Euro standard of EN12492 addresses protection from multiple strike angles.

Not only is this probably good advice, this is probably the nerdiest safety comment I've ever read.

Now as far as bumming around I'm with you all day

So now I know who's making those sounds when I'm in the woods.
Just come over and say hi... jeez.

Anything over 80 or 90 feet here causes me some real butt pucker, because at that point if there's anything under them I need to climb out of the bucket to top them out.

You're a brave man. The thought of being 90 feet in the air in a bucket makes my butt pucker.

EAB has made it to the NW and is expected to kill our native Oregon ash.

I'm really sorry to read this. those suckers are everywhere. Wish we could train squirrels to eat them.

 

[Wild Willie]

So now I know who's making those sounds when I'm in the woods.
Just come over and say hi... jeez.

Edit to add HI THERE!!!

And as far as being 90 feet up goes.... There is no bucket at that point, I'm in leg irons and a climbing saddle.

I didn't want to deliberately sidetrack the thread, my concern is with the unpredictable circumstances that can arise cutting anything in the woods, much less dead wood that isn't going to hinge properly.

 

[EngrSorenson]

I didn't want to deliberately sidetrack the thread, my concern is with the unpredictable circumstances that can arise cutting anything in the woods, much less dead wood that isn't going to hinge properly.

oh look who's worried about the safety of others, huh?

Felling trees wasn't always scary, then I learned all the ways to die felling a tree.
Now felling trees makes me sweat.

 

[Sidehill Gouger]

I guess I didn’t realize how big a problem the ash borer is for you guys. Here in Washington, the department has a bulletin about it, but I wonder how much of that is chicken littling because Ash is kind of an ornamental here. We certainly don’t have any sizable even-aged stands.

They eat the cambium layer, right? Any evidence of them infesting other species?

Parker

Our native is Oregon Ash. Have a number scattered around the timber on my home place

 

[Sidehill Gouger]

Another vote for a chainsaw and I've done my share of falling with both. Like some of the others have said, a near miss getting killed will make a believer out of you. If you have to use an ax I would go with the traditional double bit swamper on a 36 in handle. Just make sure its sharp!

 

[Blue Sky]

…much less dead wood that isn't going to hinge properly.

At risk of derailing further, how would you compensate for that?

 

[Square_peg]

Anything over 80 or 90 feet here causes me some real butt pucker

You're a brave man. The thought of being 90 feet in the air in a bucket makes my butt pucker.

Highest lift I ever had to go up in was an 85-footer. Small movements cause significant sway at that height. Sloooowwwwww is good. And yes, I experienced a high pucker factor.

 

[EngrSorenson]

Highest lift I ever had to go up in was an 85-footer. Small movements cause significant sway at that height. Sloooowwwwww is good. And yes, I experienced a high pucker factor.

This makes me feel better. I’d be melting down around 40 feet.

 

[Wild Willie]

Highest lift I ever had to go up in was an 85-footer. Small movements cause significant sway at that height. Sloooowwwwww is good. And yes, I experienced a high pucker factor.

Never did one that high, I was on 70 footers for a long time. I actually miss that, because they save a lot of climbing.

This makes me feel better. I’d be melting down around 40 feet.

The thing to remember is, 40 feet will kill you just as fast as 90 feet so it's all mental.


Don't fear the fall... Fear the landing.

 

[Danke42]

I've spent the last few years working with land managers in a working forest that has a licensed woodlot, a footprint that involves city and provincial boundaries and a lot more.

Every feller I know with a licence treats standing dead timber with an over abundance of respect. In most cases they'll just leave it for the wind or other natural causes to solve. In the cases of a danger tree they spend a lot of time in planning and prep and they will use a chainsaw.

If the land managers for whatever reason forbid power tools it would be good to know where this place is and why. In a the dry season in some spots you can't even use shovels. But when it's winter or rainy it's all good.

If there is a land manager then they are responsible for those dead trees and why they have been left. There could be birds or other wildlife living in them or if they are infested there is a specific way they have to be cleaned up. If you just drop them and leave as is the bugs from one tree will infest many more.

Otherwise this sound like some sort of TikTok challenge vying to become a new verse in "Dumb ways to Die".

 

[Square_peg]

Am gonna be doing a significant amount of dead standing tree felling. I'm looking for the best axe for this. Ideally 30" handle range.

I'm a little confused on what kind of bit thickness/profile I should be looking for. I'm under the impression for dead logs/ really hard stuff I want a thinner profile with a stouter secondary bevel?

If anyone with more knowledge than me could fill me im on the best profile for dead wood that would be much appreciated, as well as recommendations for axes under the $150 mark.

Thanks

So getting back to the original question, I'll speak about bucking dry hardwood. In general the chip pops easier in dry wood because it doesn't flex and "springload" the wood, binding the ax. So I would recommend using an axe with slightly thinner cheeks (but still convex) to allow more penetration but a little wider bevel angle at the bit to prevent the edge from rolling or chipping.


Here's a good explanation of grinds. The original poster, moosecreek trails, is an experienced FS Ranger working the Montana/Idaho area. He has a ton of wilderness and backwoods experience. He's sharing a communication he had with an old timber sports pro. The advice the pro gives should be read as gospel.

Ax Grinds letter

Response From a Gentleman Involved in timber sports for Years. His Opinion, gained by years of chopping. Good stuff,But I am sure some will disagree. Moose Good to hear from you the other day! I looked around a bit but found no sort-of literature on axe grinds but for my own notes...

www.bladeforums.com

 

[Square_peg]

So I would recommend using an axe with slightly thinner cheeks (but still convex) to allow more penetration but a little wider bevel angle at the bit to prevent the edge from rolling or chipping.

FWIW, the last few new axes I've purchased from Council Tool met this description. Their cheeks are a little thinner than I would like for bucking green west coast softwoods - but still adequate. With just a little edge work they would shine bucking dry hardwoods.

I would recommend their Velvicut line or one of their former 1080 (FSS spec) offerings rather than their current 1060 offerings (come get me, Benjamin ).

 

[EngrSorenson]

I would recommend their Velvicut line or one of their former 1080 (FSS spec) offerings rather than their current 1060 offerings (come get me, Benjamin ).

Benjamin can have the night off- I got this.

Rabble rabble rabble rabble…

 

[RedWolf4]

So getting back to the original question, I'll speak about bucking dry hardwood. In general the chip pops easier in dry wood because it doesn't flex and "springload" the wood, binding the ax. So I would recommend using an axe with slightly thinner cheeks (but still convex) to allow more penetration but a little wider bevel angle at the bit to prevent the edge from rolling or chipping.


Here's a good explanation of grinds. The original poster, moosecreek trails, is an experienced FS Ranger working the Montana/Idaho area. He has a ton of wilderness and backwoods experience. He's sharing a communication he had with an old timber sports pro. The advice the pro gives should be read as gospel.

Ax Grinds letter

Response From a Gentleman Involved in timber sports for Years. His Opinion, gained by years of chopping. Good stuff,But I am sure some will disagree. Moose Good to hear from you the other day! I looked around a bit but found no sort-of literature on axe grinds but for my own notes...

www.bladeforums.com

Thanks for sharing!

 

[Square_peg]

So getting back to the original question, I'll speak about bucking dry hardwood. In general the chip pops easier in dry wood because it doesn't flex and "springload" the wood, binding the ax. So I would recommend using an axe with slightly thinner cheeks (but still convex) to allow more penetration but a little wider bevel angle at the bit to prevent the edge from rolling or chipping.


Here's a good explanation of grinds. The original poster, moosecreek trails, is an experienced FS Ranger working the Montana/Idaho area. He has a ton of wilderness and backwoods experience. He's sharing a communication he had with an old timber sports pro. The advice the pro gives should be read as gospel.

Ax Grinds letter

Response From a Gentleman Involved in timber sports for Years. His Opinion, gained by years of chopping. Good stuff,But I am sure some will disagree. Moose Good to hear from you the other day! I looked around a bit but found no sort-of literature on axe grinds but for my own notes...

www.bladeforums.com

I believe the author of that letter to moosecreek trails made a brainfart or typo when he wrote,

"For this reason you don't want any convex surfaces. Though it has long been recommended by some to make a convex surface of the chisel just behind the edge these make very sticky and dishy axes that won't go in the wood very deep anyway."

It is a concave edge that is sticky. Not good for an axe but good for a wedge to take purchase in a hardwood.

 

[littleknife]

I am out of my depth here, but I would like to ask anyway.
Wouldn’t a softer edge like the one on the current regular line of Council Tools axes be acceptable for a dead wood too? I guess there would be more dulling than when used on green wood, but wouldn’t brittleness be less likely too?

Also, wouldn’t axes optimized for Australian hardwood, like the Hults Bruks Arvika 5 Star one, be good for the dead wood?

 

[EngrSorenson]

I am out of my depth here, but I would like to ask anyway.
Wouldn’t a softer edge like the one on the current regular line of Council Tools axes be acceptable for a dead wood too? I guess there would be more dulling than when used on green wood, but wouldn’t brittleness be less likely too?

Also, wouldn’t axes optimized for Australian hardwood, like the Hults Bruks Arvika 5 Star one, be good for the dead wood?

I don't think most people could tell any practical difference between well tempered 1060 and 1080 carbon steels.
1080 would work just fine, and so would 1060.

Now Square Peg's grizzled hands could probably tell grain orientation and wedge wood type just from a casual heft.
Square Peg also prefers 1080.

 

[Square_peg]

Also, wouldn’t axes optimized for Australian hardwood, like the Hults Bruks Arvika 5 Star one, be good for the dead wood?

An Arvika 5 Star is marketed for Australian hardwoods not optimized for Australian hardwoods. To my knowledge it's C-50.

I don't think most people could tell any practical difference between well tempered 1060 and 1080 carbon steels.

It's the difference between a Legitimus and a Homestead. It's the difference between a Woodslasher and a Flint Edge. A few days of seriously using the axe will show you the difference between a homeowner axe and a professional axe.

 

[EngrSorenson]

A few days of seriously using the axe will show you the difference between a homeowner axe and a professional axe.

Yeah, I got it SP, only a real professional axeman could tell the difference, and if I can’t tell the difference, I just haven’t cut enough wood to have the credentials.

Could all the real professional axemen please raise their hands?