WHich is more important?

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Plainsman

Joined
Apr 5, 1999
Messages
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STRYVVER brought up a good 'debate' under my topic of "largest single item" and I thought I'd start a new thread on just that 'debate.'

WHICH is more important: Having a water container or a knife?

Personally, I feel that I could accomplish a LOT more with a knife than a water container. The knife allows me to build where the water vessel has limited uses. NOW having a knife AND a water vessel is much better. Therefore, if I don't have one, then having a knife, I would SOON build one!

A water vessel is definitely IMPORTANT, but I don't think it is more important than the knife.

Depending upon the area, I would improvise a water vessel from any of the following:
bark of some trees such as birch
the skin of an animal
the stomach of an animal
a piece of stout fabric-maybe waterproof...
a piece of log, using burn, scrape/cut technique (this would probably take the longest and most effort)
Finally, in the RIGHT place, I may try to find some clay and improvise a clay bowl...Using the roll and stack and shape method would be easiest.

Short of being in the desert, a water vessel can usually be improvised within enough time to keep you alive. Hence, I would feel more secure with a knife.

How about your opinion?

BTW, THANKS STRYVVER for the great discussion!
smile.gif




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Plainsman :)
primitiveguy@hotmail.com

You use what you have on you, then you improvise! :)
 
Plainsman,

I would tend to agree with you. Excessive amounts of water are just too heavy to be carrying around, unless this is a necessity. I believe water is best stored in your stomach ("Drink it if you got it"). If I need to, I can always improvise some way to store or carry water. I know its possible to improvise a knife. I know I'm going to get bashed, because someone can probably make a better knife out of a pine cone and a grasshopper, but if I had to choose I would rather have my Busse #5 than a canteen.
 
I am not sure which is more important truthfully. In my mind they are both things that should not be done without, essentials as it were. But I will say this, I am MORE LIKELY on any given day to be without a water container than a knife. I am never without at least one knife upon my person, whereas I seldom carry a water container (possibly it might be a good idea to carry a condom, oh my explain that to my wife ). Now in my truck there are both again, as well as my wifes van. But if somethign happened at work or while I was traveling with someone else in their vehicle, then I am most likely to be without a contain, so I guess that means the knife is more important to me for everyday.

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Lee

LIfe is too important to be taken seriously. Oscar Wilde
 
I think in my case a knife. There's lots of water here, but a lot has giardia - so being able to make a Kettle out of bark would be important. Lots of bark too, and I can make containers quickly rather than carry one around.

Jimbo
 
Great topic... great debate...

I would have to say a knife. The knife is a multi-use item and I can improvise many things with it. The water container limits me to one use.

However, water is extremely important and finding, procuring, and storing it is an extremely high priority!

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Greg Davenport
http://www.ssurvival.com
Are You Ready For The Challenge?
Are You Ready To Learn The Art Of Wilderness Survival?

 
I would say that having a method to acquire clean water is more important than a knife. Let me stick a disclaimer in here that this is for a situation that you expect to be rescued from.

If my choices, with nothing else on my person, were between a knife and an empty canteen, I would take a knife. If I had matches, I would take the canteen. The water container needs some way to make the water clean. If this is a bottle of iodine tablets, and liquid water exists in your climate, that works.

It is easier for me to improvise a shelter without a knife than it is to improvise a water container with a knife. I can make a passable lean-to with my hands and a rock or two. I can make a snowshelter without ever looking at a knife, and I can break off fir branches for a mattress with my hands. I can't purify water without a container, nor melt snow.

Don't get me wrong, I do not intend on replacing the swisstool with a few plastic bags in it's sheath, but if you are carrying things for survival, put those plastic bags and iodine tabs up there at the top of the priorities list with the blade.


Stryver
 
The knife is a MUST HAVE ITEM. With a knife, you can make anything else you need to get by.

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"Actions speak louder than words"
 
I'd much rather have a water container and no knife than have a knife and no water container! I'm used to hiking where water is not abundant, and I'm used to packing in 4 to 6 liters of the heavy liquid in the event the spring is dried up at my destination. I can also carry clean water directly from a good source and hike past a couple day's worth of contaminated muddy streams.

What will a knife do that is more important than transporting water? I take it I don't have a gun, so I'll have no animals to harvest. And I am fully capable of breaking branches with my bare hands if I have to build a shelter.

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-Gregory Zolas
tinsta@hotmail.com

[This message has been edited by Happy Camper (edited 02-14-2000).]
 
With a knife you can make a water container, with a water container you can't make a knife. That settles it for me.

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I pretend to work,
they pretend to pay.
 
A good argument for a hollow handle knife. The handle is the perfect place to store water purfication tablets and a couple of condoms. This was the original idea for this design anyway.

Quote from "Randall Made Knives: By Robert L. Gaddis.

On 8 January 1963, Bo received a nicely typed letter from Capt. George W. Ingram,Medical Corps, United States Army. We was then with the 94th Medical Detachment and flew about Vietnam in old CH-24 Helicopters. Not to quote the whole article just to repeat a little history. Capt. Ingram in the text of his letter explaned why he wanted a hollow handle knife and this is the list of what would be stored in the handle.

matches,water purification tabs,Dexadrine, and Demeral.

Sounds like this would be his last piece of gear to be ditched. Just the basics for E&E while waiting for a rescue.

A smart man living in Indian country.

Sorry for the digression from the main thread it just came to mind and the quote I just wanted the right people to get the credit.

Cheers,

TS

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Guns are for show. Knifes are for Pros.
 
A knife is not a must have item. Here in the environment I am in, there are a few must have items. In the winter, the first is body heat. If I dropped you outside, right now, naked, with a knife, you'd be dead before you could get a fire built. I could drop you with matches, a cup of gasoline, and a knife, and you'd probably be dead. And it's warm right now, it in the positive F scale, small though the positive numbers may be.

Having body heat, (Meaning you are properly clothed) you need water. Dehydration hinders decision making, and decreases the metabolic rate of your body, lowering your cold tolerance. One day without water in an arctic environment will have you dangerously dehydrated, and unless you started fully hydrated, two will have you close enough to dead that it won't matter. Right now, I'd consider eating ice and snow, but last month, when it was -40, I sure as heck wouldn't put snow in my mouth.

A knife does little or nothing for building a snow shelter, and though it will make starting a fire a little bit easier, I can break off enough branches to start one all by myself, and as long as I have some kind of firestarting tool, I can have a fire.

Do not get me wrong, I do believe a knife is a valuable tool, and I carry one every day, but in many environments, and especially outside my door right now, it is not the thing that would be highest on my list, and it might not even make in the top five.


As far as making a water container with a knife, it ain't an easy job. If you've done it, you know, if you haven't, try it. And then try melting snow in this container you've made. I'll take an empty coffee can any day.


Stryver
 
Well said, Stryver!

As much as we all love knives, a reality check will indicate that other more mundane items take priority.

I haven't always lived in the desert; I lived in the northeast, where surface water was not drinkable due to giardia and sometimes animal feces.

My hats off to all those who can make portable water containers from scratch in the wild, and even more applause to those who can manage to bring their water to a boil in them!

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-Gregory Zolas
tinsta@hotmail.com
 
i don't need to take either, since i can make both but given a choice either is fine, can't imagine a situation wher i would be without one due to having the other. Clay properly heated works good for both, so does some rocks, a knife will aloow me to skin an animal, (alo make weapon or traps to kill tat animal) the skin can then be used as a cooking pot, just remember to keep the water line above the fire, also a skin can be used in conjuction with hot stones and tongs just keepputting in the stones until the water reaches boiling. A knife is to usewful for me to be without i would make its construction a priority in most situations.

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Sanity is overrated, simply a moonbeam spilling pearls on a dark and treacherous sea.
j . p hissom
 
Ok, let's look a little bit closer at this issue.

First we need to determine what kind of situation we are talking about. Survival of course, but those situations can be very different. They can be short- or long-term, for fun or out of an emergency. And it’s always possible to come up with a scenario in which you exactly need that specific item you want to promote
wink.gif
(My favorite emergency survival tool being a satellite cell-phone and the knowledge to tell others where to find you)

But let’s assume you’re in an survival situation where your goal is to sustain your health for a couple of days with the minimum or equipment. Of course your first concern is (besides air) warmth. If you can’t obtain that, all other issues are moot. (I don’t go into details that it’s possible to make fire with the help of your knife.) Your next need is water. Notice I said water and not water-container. If your vehicle breaks down in the middle of nowhere or you crash-land in the wilderness you most likely will have some sort of material which is suitable to store water in (the advantage of rain cloth: sleeves make for a very nice water-bags). But first of all you need to have some water. Once you have that, your next concern is shelter, then food. In both cases you’ll be glad to have a knife. Then does it matter if you can store the water somewhere? Do you actually have the need to carry water around? And how far can you go with the water you can carry anyway?

The goal is to find water and stay with it. Not only for convenience but also because that’s the most likely place to find fish/game and eventually other people .

So in general I would happily give up a water container for a knife, but NEVER water for a knife.

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I pretend to work,
they pretend to pay.
 
I agree situation determines the priority of needs and what you must have or improvise. Greg often posts his 5 needs list. I agree 100% with his first three, though I would debate his last two for your average lost person.

The first is shelter. There are a few extreme climates where without adequate shelter to begin with, be it clothing or structure, you will be dead before you can fix your situation. These places demand that such shelter be placed ahead of all other needs, and a knife frequently can not meet these needs. In many temperate climates, it can.

The second is signaling. Signaling rarely needs a knife, though the task will be easier with tools. Ground signals, however, can easily be constructed without a knife, and if fire is available, it can be used by itself as a signal, and to create a multitude of other signals.

Third is sustenance. Water is first, period. In short term situations, water can be the only need, you can easily go a few days without food even in the worst climates, if you have sufficient water. Knives are mediocre in supplying water, especially compared to other available tools. When water is readily availabe, and liquid, it needs purification if you plan on spending more than a day or so out. If you have no purification, it is better to be sick and hydrated than dehydrated and suffering from that. A knife will not purify water unless you can start a fire with it and create a cooking vessel. Both of these fall somewhere on the other side of easy without other materials, and with other materials, a knife becomes nice, but not necessary.

If water is available frozen, then it is desirable to melt it first. If you are sufficiently warm, there is little harm in eating it, but if you can melt it, it's better for you. A knife will not melt snow unless you can create a fire and a cooking vessel. If you have a firesource, most of a knife's work is done. Again, using a knife for this falls somewhere on the far side of easy, and having other materials makes a knife wholly unnecessary.

Lastly are areas without surface water of any kind. Here you will get water from underground sources or from plant matter. Some plants can produce water by eating them, others will need some kind of still to get the water. These need not be purified, in general, but do need to be harvested and rendered. Here a knife is useful, but not as useful a a clear garbage bag or a shovel. Getting water is not easy here, but a knife makes it better. But again, having other materials makes a knife merely a luxury.

So, in two out of three types of environments, providing you meet any urgent personal protection needs, the first three of the survival needs can be met without a knife, given a fire source and a pot. Since your average person cannot build a fire with only a knife, I would say that a knife comes third or lower on the needs list, beneath a fire source and a water purification source (A pot, or metal canteen). In extreme environments personal protection preceeds all of these things.

I can make a fire with only a knife. I prefer not to, but it is a skill/knowledge I posess. I can also make a cooking container with a knife (Drop hot stones in as opposed to heat over fire). I think the average person, and maybe even a decent chunk of those here, would be hard pressed to accomplish those things, if they could. I would much prefer to have a firesource and a pot and no knife than have a knife and be forced to create those things.

Stryver
 
Ok, lets get back to the original thread. Water or a knife, one choice for survival.

Being realistic: one can live without a knife but water is an essential element of life.

One can travel with a water container.

To make a container, I hope you have a lot of time and if your not sure of the water safety boiling is a problem. One would need lots of rocks to bring water to a boil.

Lets try to be realistic.

This all depends on the situation and time.

Wolf.

[This message has been edited by The Wolf (edited 02-18-2000).]
 
Now you have me curious; How do you make a water boiling container with your knife? (just in case I need to know some day)



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-Gregory Zolas
tinsta@hotmail.com
 
in oder to make a container for boiling water you need an animal skin, (preferably large) e.g. a deer, you skin the animal scrape te hide, then using a tripod string the skin up into a pouch, fill with water, the skin will not burn if the fire is kept below the water level, the heat and liquid allow the leather to expand and the water sweating keeps the leather from burning.

FYI it realyy does depend on where you are

another basic use for many knives is strpping bark and cutting coniferious plants for sap from which a water container can be formed

another method of heating water is to carve a bowl and use the rock in that

of course clay can bee dug in some areas and used for rope pottery ( a fire is needed)

many things can be made without a knife including a knife in many situations but a knife is a multipupose tool capable of being used to create many things in an easier manner.

what can a water container do to aid you in the construction of anything including another container if it should spring a leak?

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Sanity is overrated, simply a moonbeam spilling pearls on a dark and treacherous sea.
j . p hissom
 
I have tried to make a water container with a knife...several times...to no avail. Then I found a better way. Build a fire take a coal and set it on the log you were intending to carve into a container. Blow on the coal and it will burn into the wood, of course, you will have to use several coals, but it doesn't take long and you can use small stones and sand to scrape out the ashes and charcoal.

I'd take a water container over a knife in about 80% of the situations out there. But I'd take a bic lighter over anything else!

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An eye for an eye leaves everyone blind.
 
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