Which is stronger: REKAT roller lock vs. liner locks vs. Axis lock?

[Cliff Stamp]

John, in the middle of a cut, something happens suddenly to cause the blade to twist in your hand. The force that you were using to cut the material now is applied directly across the back of the blade. Stabs and hard thrusts can also be influenced by the same kind of effect.

What causes the twisting? Well it could be an outside influence on you which could effect your grip or it could directly exerts a force on the material you are trying to cut. It could even be an irregularity in the material itself (that was the case with the wood).

Does this generate enough force to break a lock? Well that depends on the individual and how strong the lock is. I have failed locking folders with downward pressure of one hand using far less force than I apply when cutting heavy materials.

The critical point is that it is possible for the force to be generated against the lock so as to make it fail during normal cutting. The effects that this can have are dependent on the force of the cut and the strength of the grip of the user. Of course the simple fact that the blade undergoes a sudden torque can cause some locks to fail, some liner lock are sensitive to this.

Not to mention of course the "tactical" folders and the kind of forces that a fighting folder could expect to see.

-Cliff

 

[Sergiusz Mitin]

Cliff,
I always value your opinion very high but honestly here I was somewhat surprised. I have needed some time to think about this and to convince myself that my not-the-best English didn't cause me to miss something.

Are you rating yet unborn Busse Combat folder over really existing and proven knives? Hmmm, it would be quite hard challenge for me to discus is something non-existing better or worse than something existing is. I'm afraid I couldn't rise to the occasion in this discussion, maybe someone else could...

Well, let's look onto the new Buck - Strider. I do not have one and I even have no opportunity to hold one. Following Dexter Ewing's presentation on "What's new" forum and Misque's initial impressions on "Knife Review & Testing" forum (sorry, I did not note links) I can consider that this knife doesn't include any innovations in lock design. It is well known liner lock with titanium liners which you numerous times claimed as unreliable and prone to fail. I personally have nothing against liner locks, BENCHMADE AFCK and SPYDERCO Starmate are still my favorite carry knives. But as to Buck - Strider entire design it looks fairly overbuilt and somewhat overpriced, in my opinion at least. This could be the next trial to build "folder as strong as fixed blade" or "survival folder for wilderness" - both ideas are quite senseless for me.
And you are rating this knife design over BM and REKAT knives? OK, it's your right but believe me, very many people wouldn't agree with you. I would be very curious to know how much Buck Striders are sold in comparison with BM 710's...

In this background the discussion about 200 pound application with one hand exertion is quite redundant for me. Maybe you can do it... OK, but I can't and I'm choosing the knife for myself. But even if I could do it - God gave me some deal of intellect to do not try to replace a fixed blade with a folder and a prybar with a knife.
Let's remind ourselves that one of this Forum tasks is to disseminate knife proper and as result safe use.

Maybe this is somewhat silly comparison, but... My car certainly will be crushed heavily if I would bang the concrete wall at 30 or more kilometers per hour. Does this means I should drive with tank daily?

I also can't to imagine what common has customer support of BM or REKAT with their locking device strength and reliability. Or what way good (or bad) customer support can influence certain knife usefulness for serious tasks?
As to steel choice, maybe ATS-34 both BM and REKAT use for the most their blades is not the ideal steel, maybe... But tell me please which steel is ideal?

Like each normal man I also have some my own preferences, I can like one company and do not like another. But this is nothing to do with this discussion topic.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Sergiusz, yes I would rate the Busse Combat folder over many blades even though I have never seen one and don't think as of yet a prototype even exists. I do this based on experience with other Busse blades.

It is the same thing for example that would let me recommend Phil Wilson for a light utility hunter to someone who wanted a high performance cutting blade. I would not have to handle it in order to bet heavily they would be very pleased with its performance.

It is well known liner lock with titanium liners which you numerous times claimed as unreliable and prone to fail.

Some yes.

And you are rating this knife design over BM and REKAT knives?

Am I 100% secure that the Buck/Strider is a strong and reliable folder. No. Do I think based on using Striders blades and discussing issues of very heavy use with them that it would be a very good bet - yes.

b]very[/b] many people wouldn't agree with you.

That wouldn't be a first.

do not try to replace a fixed blade with a folder and a prybar with a knife.

I have knives that are can be used as pry bars and there are folders (uluchet) that can hold their own with fixed blades even under very heavy use; thrusting, chopping, splitting, throwing, digging and prying.

My car certainly will be crushed heavily if I would bang the concrete wall at 30 or more kilometers per hour. Does this means I should drive with tank daily?

If on a regular basis you hit concrete walls.

I also can't to imagine what common has customer support of BM or REKAT with their locking device strength and reliability. Or what way good (or bad) customer support can influence certain knife usefulness for serious tasks?

I have seen Benchmades blades fail under very light use and have seen how they completely fail to stand behind their knives. REKAT has done the same thing with Bob Talor refusing to answer questions when asked about the expected behavior of their blades and in addition not solving problems with returned blades. This leaves me with no confidence in their product.

which steel is ideal?

All of them for specific tasks, the way Benchmade heat treat their ATS-34 just doesn't suit mine.

-Cliff

 

[e_utopia]

Okay, I can't resist any longer.

First, Dew, you asked for an engineering analysis, I took the time to post one, and you completely ignore it? Real mature...

Everyone who keeps mentioning that lock strength is not the most important thing: didn't I mention that in my first post? Yup, it's there. Why do you keep posting this like it is some sort of revelation? Reading the same thing, again and again, is getting tiring. Same goes for reliability; it's back there; both wear resistance and resistance to dirt.

Cliff, seems everyone must be out to get you, huh? Benchmade does not support their knives? Give me a break. Benchmade is often known to replace, at their own cost, knives which were obviously damaged through abuse, even when the customer has said that the knife was abused and they would pay for the repairs. This is one of the reasons why most of my factory knives are from Benchmade.

And, we seem to be seeing you showing your true colors. As I've said previously, you base your reviews on your own pre-concieved assumptions. While it is appropriate to say, sight-unseen, that a certain knife will very likely be high quality, saying that a folder by a company which up to now has only made fixed blades will be high quality is obvious prejudice.

Professor, don't bother trying to make sense of Cliff. He decides what will happen, than arranges a review accordingly to make that happen. Handle ergonomics alone make the Buck Strider less than optimal as a hard-use folder. But I forget, the amazing Postage Man said it is, so it must be!

Cliff, again: you obviously have a lot to learn about how to properly use a knife if you can get the blade to end up spine-first when whittling. I mean, that's just insane. I've never even seen little kids do that. What were your qualifications, again? I mean, even Benchmade's 705, which is rather small in my hand, could not end up twisting in my grip under and use which would not be causing a pretty decent amount of damage to my hand.

Sergiusz, I think you are starting to see some of the many problems with Cliff. He will decide ahead of time what is good and what is not, then tailor a review to show that. As in titanium liners, for example; they just aren't as strong as steel ones of the same thickness, so why would a knife with Ti liners be good for hard-use? Because Cliff has decided it, so it must be true.

--JB

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e_utopia@hotmail.com

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Professor :

[gunting]

It looks a little specialized for my purposes

If you are not looking for a combat blade then many of the design aspects are indeed wasted. It would not be how I would want a utility blade. However there are some features that I would like to see on a utiliy knife such as the kinetic opening ramp.

I understand they redesigned it (the locking mech) slightly to make it more user-friendly; apparently it was hard to release one-handed.

I have one of the first two prototypes and a new one. The only change that I can see is on which side of the handle the liner is against. The release action is identical to a liner lock but it is on top of the blade.

The problem with liner releases of course is that the easier you make them to close, the easier they close when you don't want them to.

-Cliff

 

[Joe Talmadge]

I don't put too much credence in these numbers knife companies come out with, explaining how strong their locks are. Are these companies even testing the same way?

As far as lock strength goes, my experiences with both Axis and Rolling Lock lead me to believe that both these formats are fine for hard use. There are probably some liner locks out there -- like the Strider, perhaps -- that also are suitable for hard use, again speaking strictly strength-wise.

My main problem with the Strider for hard use is that the handle is the classic rectangle shape. Just handling it for a few minutes at a booth is uncomfortable. I can't imagine using this folder hard for any length of time. Add in the terrible blade-to-handle ratio, and the tanto grind they chose, and it's definitely not high on my list. I'm sure it's very well-designed for what Strider had in mind for this knife, but for my working needs (including my hard use needs), there are much better choices. The best thing I have to say about the Strider is that the production values seem excellent, and a step up for Buck. I'd love to see Buck continue this series, perhaps with some custom makers who emphasize different characteristics from the Strider folks.

Why I think the 710 Axis is a superb hard-use knife? Ergonomics are a personal thing, but for me, I can work hard with the 710 for a very long time without getting uncomfortable. Hell, working with the 710 hard for 20 minutes is still more comfortable than just handling the Strider for 1 minute at a booth! The 710's lock is rock solid. The only question in my mind about it is, is the blade strong enough for hard use? So far, it has been for me, but I'll admit to having tested the lock far harder than the blade. For all I know, Cliff will snap the blade in two the first time he uses it. Certainly, Cliff has shown the most interest in knives that have thicker-than-usual spines (Strider, soon-to-be Busse, the Mission, etc.).

Which brings us around to my hard-use requirements versus Cliff's. Ergonomics are key, and since they are very subjective, Cliff's and mine might severely diverge. Beyond that, needs for performance, carryability, etc., might also diverge. The nice thing about Cliff's statements is that he almost always explains himself. So when his explanations make it clear that his criteria don't match mine -- as they do in this case -- I know to give his statements less weight.

Joe

 

[Dew]

Originally posted by e_utopia:

First, Dew, you asked for an engineering analysis, I took the time to post one, and you completely ignore it? Real mature...

A moment. I haven't yet finished my FEA. (g)

Sorry that my sarcasms were too subtle to you. I didn't expect that you would buy my "ocean-front property in Arizona."

I didn't ignore your analysis. I was so impressed with your through knowledge that I became speechless.

My background is in EE and I have 0 knowledge on this discussion. So with a bag of popcorn in my hand I now sit back and enjoy the show.

Peace.
Dew.



[This message has been edited by Dew (edited 08-31-2000).]

 

[Cliff Stamp]

[Joe :

I don't put too much credence in these numbers knife companies come out with, explaining how strong their locks are.

That depends on how they use them. REKAT kept mixing up the 1000 number. When I asked Bob Talor about it there was confusion about if it was a force or a torque. It was refered to in ways like 1000 in/lbs of force per torque. That means nothing.

However when I asked Strider about the folder I was told how much force was applied in a certain manner at a specific distance from the pivot and the type of failure it caused. A big difference.

My main problem with the Strider for hard use is that the handle is the classic rectangle shape. Just handling it for a few minutes at a booth is uncomfortable.

Ergonomics on most of the Strider blades are very poor. I would say that the folder is actually better than the cord wrap in this respect so imagine how comfortable it is. However they do make ergonomic grips - but the cord ones outsell them 10:1 .

They simply do not rate ergonomics very high. When Marion commented about the poor comfort of the WB awhile back I think it was Mick who said something like "Ergonomics - what's that?

" Grip security is what they rate as important.

his criteria don't match mine

For a hard use folder I want a strong and secure lock. I want a grip that is very stable. I want a blade that is very strong and durable with a reinforced tip.

I carry multiple blades always, at least one will be a highly efficient cutter in the same league as the Deerhunter. This is obviously not the use class the Strider folder is in. But it does fit a role I would have a place for.

-Cliff

 

[Joe Talmadge]

Originally posted by Cliff Stamp:

For a hard use folder I want a strong and secure lock. I want a grip that is very stable. I want a blade that is very strong and durable with a reinforced tip.

Strong and secure lock, check.

I'm not sure what you mean by stable grip -- do you mean a secure grip? For me, I want a grip that's secure, but for hard use, it must be comfortable, especially for extended use. To some extent security and comfort can be tradeoffs, although some designs do a good job and maximizing both. For me, though, a highly-secure handle that is not comfortable for hard use means blisters and pain that I'd rather not have in my hands. If a folder falls below my comfort minimum (as the Strider does), no amount of security-of-grip can make up for it. Although in the case of the Strider, for me, the grip wasn't even that secure.

Blade that is very strong and durable with a reinforced tip. Here's where we definitely part ways. I used to think I wanted a reinforced tip, but I've come to the conclusion I want the tip to pierce easily, which means thick reinforced tips are out. Obviously for harder use, needle-thin tips are out, but in the piercing-ability/tip-strength tradeoff, I lean much further towards piercing ability than you do. Blade strength is important, but I suspect my blade strength minimum requirements are below yours.

Again, no right or wrong here, just highlighting our different requirements for hard use folders.

I carry multiple blades always, at least one will be a highly efficient cutter in the same league as the Deerhunter. This is obviously not the use class the Strider folder is in. But it does fit a role I would have a place for.

-Cliff

Given how you use your knives, that seems to make sense for you. For me, the Strider doesn't fit any role I have for a folder.

 

[Sergiusz Mitin]

Wow, Friends! It seems we are starting next endless thread where nobody remembers the initial topic of discussion

I'm quite curious will it be longer than Talonite mile-long serial or not? I would be happy to obtain at least 1/10 of such response in each my review but it seems to be in dream area...

We are living in curious times when the largest response obtain the most silly threads, yet unborn things are claimed better than existing, lock strength is confused with reliability and knife hard use is replaced with improper one

Well, have a good time in this thread but without me, please

See you in another threads!

 

[Rob Simonich]

Cliff, you said about REKAT.
REKAT has done the same thing with Bob
Talor refusing to answer questions when asked about the expected behavior of their
blades and in addition not solving problems with returned blades. This leaves me with no
confidence in their product.(copied from above post)

I asked Bob Taylor about this as we are doing a collaboration together. Do you have proof to back this up other than old posts in the forum? And also, did you make the statement that you can ruin any knifemaker? I am NOT trying to start a fight, I would just like an answer, even by e-mail. Thanks.

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www.simonichknives.com

 

[JoHnYKwSt]

Cliff,

In your reply to my post, you avoided my questions more than answered them.

I said:

You're saying that the wind which pulled at the canvas and pulled the rope was strong enough to bend your liner from your liner lock or shear or bend the pin in your axis lock to make it fail? You're saying you were actually strong enough to hold onto the knife during this very sudden occurance and held on tight enough with one hand that the liner or pin bent? You're saying the wind was strong enough to cause this? How does making a cut of 1" thick rope cause the knife to twist and have such a heavy force applied to the back of the blade to bend the liner?

Cliff replied:

John, in the middle of a cut, something happens suddenly to cause the blade to twist in your hand. The force that you were using to cut the material now is applied directly across the back of the blade.

You also talked about whittling and how that can cause bent liners or bent axis/rolling locks.

Both of these explanations are so absurd I do not know why you even bother attempting to back them up.

[/quote]Does this generate enough force to break a lock? Well that depends on the individual and how strong the lock is. I have failed locking folders with downward pressure of one hand using far less force than I apply when cutting heavy materials.[/quote]

Of course those examples do not generate enough force to break the locks. Who do you think you are? He-Man? They may cause the lock to fail (slipped liner), but that has nothing to do with lock strength. That is a reliability issue, which is of the utmost importance to a lot of people here including me.

Stabs and hard thrusts can also be influenced by the same kind of effect.

Another reliability issue.

Cliff, I think it's about time you admit that you are wrong. The purpose of these forums is to learn the truth, and the truth is you could not give me an example in which, after a certain point, ultimate lock stregnth is even a concern. Being a respectable person means you know when you are wrong and you admit to it. You don't go on giving absurd counter arguments. Save whatever respect you have left and admit you were wrong.

Wishing he was a master of the universe who could break locks by whittling or cutting rope --Johnny

 

[Mike Turber]

This thread has gone from fact, to fiction to damn near fantasy.

The original question is a simple request to see which would fail first, a Liner Lock, Axis lock or Rolling lock.
Here is the question in case we have forgotten.
"Which is stronger: REKAT roller lock vs. liner locks vs. Axis lock?"
"Which is stronger? Just wondering which would fail first? Thanks in advance."

The argument over who has the strongest locks will never go away. I am looking at a bumper sticker which states "Cold Steel, World's strongest, sharpest knives" BULL ****!

Whenever I hear someone claim their lock is the strongest I just roll my eyes. Not because I don't believe them but more because the claim should lay with the consumer, not the manufacturer.

But one way to look at it is that we are men & men run the companies we buy from. They make a claim and we, being men, want the best there is so we can brag about it. I have made claims about Busse knives being the best production fixed blades you can buy, I still believe they are although Camillus now makes the best buy which used to belong to Cold Steel. Things change folks. Deal with it

Cliff's claim above about the Busse folder is preposterous. I like Busse knives, Jerry is my friend, I have given input into the design even, and I would bet money that their folder will kick ass, but I would not claim it will be better than the Axis or Rolling lock until I learn more about it - and I know a good bit about it now. It will be one kick ass folder but lets hold that discussion until it comes out.

Back to this. There have been remarks made in this thread that have me in a possible legal scenario so I am locking it down and making a couple of decisions based on this and other threads.

I will make this remark about locks. The Rolling lock is perhaps the strongest on the market today based on what I have seen and the results of tests done by Sal Glesser. Here is his results in his words.

Stompy - We've only tested a few of Rekat's Rolling Lock knives, more as a favor to them so they can refine and develop. Really can't say which is the strongest.

They tested very favorably. Stronger than any other lock we've tested. Sometimes the steel in the knife makes a difference, but most of the knives that we've tested will destroy the knife before the blade steel actually breaks.

If the blade steel breaks, this generally tells us that the hardness isn't ideal and permits us to go back to the heattreat. It is a deveolment tool for Spyderco.

The Rolling Lock tested stronger than any of the liner locks that we have tested so far, but that doesn't mean that there aren't some out there that are stronger than those tested.

I trust Sal and believe his tests are fair and honest, especially since he does not make the rolling lock. The jury is still out on their new lock which will be in the Gunting but I would venture a guess it will kick some ass too.

The Buck Strider is a solid kick ass knife but I seriously doubt the lock it uses would in any way come close to an Axis, much less a Rolling lock. But I remind you I have not officially tested them and I would be happy to do so if I could.

Maybe the next time CJ or Chuck and Les play golf they can talk about licensing the Axis into Buck product?

Now, I carry a commander and a Combat talon II both as my every day carry and both use a liner lock or variation there of. I have never had either fail but I know for a fact that the Commander will not beat the Axis or Rolling lock as far as strength. But they work fine for me for the uses I use them in daily.

Feel free to start another thread but stay on topic. Any more here say or diatribe and I will lock that one too.

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Best Regards,
Mike Turber
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