Which steel for a custom?? I need help

The best recommendation that I can give is keep using your Bravo 1 for the Hard use, battoning logs, splitting some bone, spitting deer pelvis's...........

Have a nice custom knife made, more of a slicer/cutter in something in the S90V range and keep it in the pack and just use it for game cleaning, skinning, processes meat. It would be nice and light, thin so it will really cut well and really hold an edge.

I would think that's what most of the custom guys will tell you also......
 
I have used a decent amount of 4V so far and really like it. I heat treat it to 62-63 and the one I am using now is ground Thin. It is about .010" behind a 24* cutting edge. I filled a 90 gallon garbage can with cardboard cut by the knife. While there was edge degradation I was able to get it back to a good sharpness just by stropping. I am not a fan of batoning and I consider it abuse to a knife, but I know there are guys that think that is the only way to cut something. I have not batoned with this knife yet, but it's day is coming. I only do this to test for edge stability. My other 4V test knives I batoned with were not as thin as this knife and held up extremely well. I can easily tell you that 4V has better edge retention than 3V, but I have never pushed either steel to the point of testing toughness.
 
I batton basically to test my knives. I spend a lot of time in the woods, and want to know that what I have is plenty durable just in case. I usually have a heavy duty tomahawk on me too. Rmj, or storm crow's. But sometimes I'm out on horse back with just my knife. Never know what you'll need it for, but I would rather know it wont fail me. I have my folder in my pocket if I need a little slicer. I have been looking for a single fixed blade that can do what I need it to do. Not cut vegetables. I dont eat them anyway. But skinning an animal, and quartering it, a heavy fixed blade does just fine. Just dont like to stop to sharpen in the middle of working an elk when its getting dark, Or skinning a beef, or pig. Thats really all I use my knives for. But knowing the blade will go through bone if I need it to. Thats why Im getting a custom done. Something that fits me. Im thinking 4v will be a good choice, considering vanadis is difficult to find. I was watching a you tube vid of a knife research in vanadis getting pounded on by a hammer, thats what got me interested in that steel. Plus the reviews say it holds a better edge than 3v. More carbon and vanadium, with uddeholms technology. Sounds almost perfect for my uses.
 
rodriguez7 said:
I batton basically to test my knives. I spend a lot of time in the woods, and want to know that what I have is plenty durable just in case. I usually have a heavy duty tomahawk on me too. Rmj, or storm crow's. But sometimes I'm out on horse back with just my knife. Never know what you'll need it for, but I would rather know it wont fail me. I have my folder in my pocket if I need a little slicer. I have been looking for a single fixed blade that can do what I need it to do. Not cut vegetables. I dont eat them anyway. But skinning an animal, and quartering it, a heavy fixed blade does just fine. Just dont like to stop to sharpen in the middle of working an elk when its getting dark, Or skinning a beef, or pig. Thats really all I use my knives for. But knowing the blade will go through bone if I need it to. Thats why Im getting a custom done. Something that fits me. Im thinking 4v will be a good choice, considering vanadis is difficult to find. I was watching a you tube vid of a knife research in vanadis getting pounded on by a hammer, thats what got me interested in that steel. Plus the reviews say it holds a better edge than 3v. More carbon and vanadium, with uddeholms technology. Sounds almost perfect for my uses.
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With the bolded area... You are right back in that that knife doesn't and won't exist....

The steels that will give you that much more edge retention than 3V aren't going to do the rest....

So you are right back to needing two knives again...

CPM 4V isn't the answer you are looking for..... One of two things will happen...

It will lose it's edge way too fast because the hardness is lower to get the toughness that is needed.... Still won't be as tough as 3V and likely chip out...... For the use you want this is most likely.....

It will chip out because the hardness is too high to get the small increase in edge retention over 3V.....
 
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It's like " all purpose " flour " , it does it all but never well. If you want the best product you get the appropriate flour ,bread flour for bread, cake flour for cake . And HT it properly [bake it !! ]
 
Have you considered PD 1 or M4 as a possible steel choice?
 
mete said:
It's like " all purpose " flour " , it does it all but never well. If you want the best product you get the appropriate flour ,bread flour for bread, cake flour for cake . And HT it properly [bake it !! ]
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Yeah... LOL

But with a tank at .030" behind the edge and 20 degrees per side or so it really wouldn't matter all that much, M4, S30V, ELMAX, M390, 4V........ 3V, etc.....

Any of those steels will hold up due to the blade and edge geometry..... As I understand now that we are talking about a tank...... :D

Heck, I would even go with S90V or 10V with that kind of geometry... I bet one could pound them through bricks...... ;)
 
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My suggestion is get in contract with Big Chris tell him what you want the knife to do, and let him pick the steel that he feels will best suit your needs.
 
Mike Stewart said he liked 4V quite a bit. Said Vanadis 4E is extremely similar. I'm sure you know that already. He said he's planning to produce some stuff in 4V because of how well it held up to his tests. Hate to speak for another man, though, so I'll let you find him for the specifics. Plus, there are several reviews of 4E and it's been a resounding success for those who've used it. Lack of marketing for 4V/4E is the only thing I can think of as to why it's not in use ALOT more. Every person said it's more than tough enough for all but the most ridiculous use, it keeps a great edge, I guess close to S35VN, and is reasonably corrosion resistant. They say the edge is really hard to chip. Personally, I think that as soon as spyderco and KAI put it out in a folder, it'll skyrocket in popularity because of its qualities of both high toughness and edge stability and retention. It's what most people ask for. FWIW

rodriguez7 said:
I batton basically to test my knives. I spend a lot of time in the woods, and want to know that what I have is plenty durable just in case. I usually have a heavy duty tomahawk on me too. Rmj, or storm crow's. But sometimes I'm out on horse back with just my knife. Never know what you'll need it for, but I would rather know it wont fail me. I have my folder in my pocket if I need a little slicer. I have been looking for a single fixed blade that can do what I need it to do. Not cut vegetables. I dont eat them anyway. But skinning an animal, and quartering it, a heavy fixed blade does just fine. Just dont like to stop to sharpen in the middle of working an elk when its getting dark, Or skinning a beef, or pig. Thats really all I use my knives for. But knowing the blade will go through bone if I need it to. Thats why Im getting a custom done. Something that fits me. Im thinking 4v will be a good choice, considering vanadis is difficult to find. I was watching a you tube vid of a knife research in vanadis getting pounded on by a hammer, thats what got me interested in that steel. Plus the reviews say it holds a better edge than 3v. More carbon and vanadium, with uddeholms technology. Sounds almost perfect for my uses.
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Ankerson said:
Those steels aren't going to give you much more than 3V will already, you would have to jump to the next level to see any real difference in edge retention.

But then if you start talking about edge retention the hardness would have higher than what you have now, but you would lose toughness....

It's all a trade off, to get one thing you have to give up something else..... That's the way it works, there is no magic to it.

Tougher steels = Less edge retention

More Edge retention = Less Toughness
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What's the next level?
 
Looking over pd-1, it looks pretty dam interesting. I cant seem to find much info. on it. Any one know how it compares in toughness to cpm3v?
 
mete said:
I wish he would detail "hard use" . Blood is not 'highly acidic' but it's acidic + salt + iron [hemoglobin ]. All work together to rust. A stainless steel would be nice .Other than that ? well 3V has enough stuff in it to make it rust resistant .I don't have actual experience with others in that list. How you treat your knives is important too.A diver should always rinse off knife after diving and don't store it in the sheath. Blood and other corrosive thins should always be cleaned even if it's just to wipe off the blood and moisture .
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One of the issues I am noticing with the term "hard use" is how variable it is. I think on knife forums you are most likely to see hard usage being implied in a sense that the usage will see an extreme in which edge retention, toughness, corrosion resistance, or more than one feature is best-suited for that type of usage, but it does not apply to "abuse". In my mind, that's something like splitting wood or using one piece of wood and the knife to baton its way through another piece of wood. But on the other hand, someone could also imply usage that does constitute "abuse", in which it is arguable that no knife and no knife steel is really appropriate for the task. I suppose things like prying, running over the knife with a tank, using it for a climbing peg, or putting it into a vice and tying a rope to the handle and the tow hitch of a golf cart could quality.

I use the term "hard use" myself a lot, and the more I read here, the more I realize I need to be more specific.
 
Also another steel, the maker recommended I look into is z-wear, similar somewhat to vanadis. Any one have any first hand use with this steel? And how it might compare to pd-1?
 
Also another steel, the maker recommended I look into is z-wear, similar somewhat to vanadis. Any one have any first hand use with this steel? And how it might compare to pd-1?
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It is essentially the same steel as PD#1. Both are powder steels, both have the same composition along with CPM Cruwear, ingot cruwear and now discontinued Vascowear.

3V is a cousin to this steel but with lower carbon to make it tougher. PD#1 will have a bit less toughness for a gain in wear resistance over 3V. 4Vshould have a similar gain in wear resistance over PD#1/Z wear/Cruwear with somewhat less toughness. I haven't tried 4V yet but it looks like something right up my alley. I have been a fan of this class steel since it's days of being called Vascowear, made by Vasco Pacific. It was first put in a production folder back in about 1980? or so in a Gerber Sportsman 2 folder as "V" steel. They are a rare variant of that old discontinued line and are scarfed up on the secondary market pretty quickly.

It was never a really popular steel with custom knifemakers but it did have it's fans in guys like me. The newer powder steel versions should be easier to make knives out of.

It is an upgrade to D2 wear and toughness wise with lower corrosion resistance than D2. It isn't up to CPM M4 wear resistance when done correctly though so you can say it's in between D2 and CPM M4 wear resistance wise. Don't know about 4V yet but it looks good to me. Pretty tough and pretty wear resistant. This class makes great hard use folders.

Joe
 
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^^ Joe pretty well hit the nail on the head. PD 1, 4V, Vandis 4, and Z Wear, they are all basically in the same very small arena. Extremely similar compositions with just very very minor differences. I have been looking into these steels a lot lately as I just made some knives from Z Wear and wanted to really see how they compared. So far of that group PD 1 is may #1 choice for a really hard use knife. I made a large camp knife and was not easy or gentle with it, and it came away without even a burr on the edge. PD 1 is currently only available in .220" thickness for knives. I have been in contact with several people about some thinner stock, which should come available later this year.
On Z Wear, I just reground a 5" bladed knife I made to a zero convex and then added a micro bevel. I did this to test both edge retention and stability. The edge is about .005" behind the edge. The micro bevel is less than .010" tall on it's own so that gives you an idea how thin the edge is. So far edge retention is superb, but with the little chopping I did last night some small burrs did show but no chips. The edge was still extremely smooth when drug across the thumbnail. These will easily be removed with an XX fine diamond and strop.
What you have to remember here is that I am working with an edge just thicker than a hair on your head. The knife you will want made is going to have an edge that can be measured with a machinist scale (ruler). I will eventually test to extreme edge failure on this very thin cross section.
 
Big Chris said:
^^ Joe pretty well hit the nail on the head. PD 1, 4V, Vandis 4, and Z Wear, they are all basically in the same very small arena. Extremely similar compositions with just very very minor differences. I have been looking into these steels a lot lately as I just made some knives from Z Wear and wanted to really see how they compared. So far of that group PD 1 is may #1 choice for a really hard use knife. I made a large camp knife and was not easy or gentle with it, and it came away without even a burr on the edge. PD 1 is currently only available in .220" thickness for knives. I have been in contact with several people about some thinner stock, which should come available later this year.
On Z Wear, I just reground a 5" bladed knife I made to a zero convex and then added a micro bevel. I did this to test both edge retention and stability. The edge is about .005" behind the edge. The micro bevel is less than .010" tall on it's own so that gives you an idea how thin the edge is. So far edge retention is superb, but with the little chopping I did last night some small burrs did show but no chips. The edge was still extremely smooth when drug across the thumbnail. These will easily be removed with an XX fine diamond and strop.
What you have to remember here is that I am working with an edge just thicker than a hair on your head. The knife you will want made is going to have an edge that can be measured with a machinist scale (ruler). I will eventually test to extreme edge failure on this very thin cross section.
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Nice. :)

Should do very well I think. :D
 
This was one of the more intelligent threads I've read here in a bit.
Though similar in subject to some previously posted threads i.e. The Oneder Blade, Big Chris and Ankerson
provided just the right amount of technical input to make it an enjoyable read and finish it to it's entirety.
Thanks guys!
 
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