Who is copying who's axis or similar?

Hello folks,

I never been really impressed with the novelty of an axis because I have a pair of prunerscissors with excactly the same system.
It is a good idea to have it adapted to knives.
Then i found this:
View

For people who don't see the image, here's the link: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=488545&a=11322146&p=48177164&Sequence=0&res=high

Lemme give you some info on this knife:
Maker: Koyama from japan. picture is a scans from the cover of "Passion des Couteaux" of Mai-july 1998, Nr 55.

I don't believe axis or arc locks existed before then.

This brings me to a problem: what to think of the current axis-arc locks? Cheer with the crowd - never been my style - or think something bad of the axis/arc locks?

I am *NOT* pointing any fingers.. I don't blame Benchmade or SOG. They make good knives and I use 'm daily.

But still..this pic gives me mixed feeling towards the current axis/arc lock knives.

Lemme know your opinions.

Greetz, Bart.

------------------
"If the world wouldn't SUCK, we'd all fall off !"

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Cosmic Superchunk

Cosmic Superchunk

Joined
Jan 28, 2001
Messages
3,709
I like Benchmade's Axis lock because it allows use for both right handed and left handed people. SOG has the Arc lock, Cold Steel has the "Ultra lock" and Gerber has the Bolt Action type lock on the Chameleon folder. I think they are good alternatives for those who don't like liner locks or lock backs.
 
The Axis lock was found by the patent office to be worthy of a patent.

But what is the point? Is anyone going to pass on some of the best folding knives available because there is nothing entirely new under the sun? Does it make sense to compare knives to garden tools in terms of novelty?

Sorry, a little puzzled. Mixed feelings about the Axis lock? I don't get it. It is about the most reliable and functional folder lock I have been able to get my hands on. That's how I feel about the Axis lock. Knowing something similar exists on a pair of pruning shears doesn't change that for me.
 
Just for the purposes of discussion, does anyone happen to remember when Mr. McHenry and Mr. Williams first started using the Axis lock design?

Even if this wasn't prior to '98, with all due respect to Mr. Koyama, it would appear on the surface that the Axis lock is a definite improvement over the lock system pictured in Bart's post.

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Semper Fi

-Bill
 
It wasn't until 1999 before I saw Benchmade release it. I don't think Benchmade could have obtained a patent (#5737841) for it if someone else had claimed the design before Bill McHenry and Jason Williams did.
 
Axis is single most practical and impressive lock on market right now, considering its strength, resistance to wear, ambidexterity, and smoothness. What is there not to like?
 
While I haven't been able to check out the Cold Steel Recon I folder with their "Ultra Lock", I compared Benchmade's Axis to SOG's Arc Lock and to me, The Axis lock operates much more smoothly than the Arc-Lock. By the way, didn't Cold Steel have another line of folders dubbed the Ultralocks before jumping on the bandwagon to imitate the Axis lock?
 
el cid,
I don't believe that Benchmade actually holds the patent for the Axis lock. It's my understanding that McHenry and Williams own the patent and have merely licensed it to Benchmade.

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Semper Fi

-Bill
 
I fully agree with you people that the axis lock is one of the best under the sun.
But if someone asks who invented it I used to say McHenry and McWilliams... now I don't know. hence the mixed feeling..not about the quality or functionality of the lock, but about it's origins.
(I'm used to speaking dutch-forgive me if I express something wrong in English)

I think the picture looks more like an arclock.. and Koyama used the lock type as lock and opening system. He has a spring as back, so if you release the lock, it operates like a auto. He also has manual version - whithout spring.

What would you people think of an axis auto with a full working axis lock and a full stainless spacer? Now that would be a killer wouldn't it?

BTW..who invented SOG's arclock?

Greetz & thanks for your replies folks

------------------
"If the world wouldn't SUCK, we'd all fall off !"

You can E-mail me at any time....guaranteed reply !

member of the BKS
http://www.expage.com/belgianknives

My knife-page :
http://www.student.kuleuven.ac.be/~m9710483/index.html
 
I think that ultimately, it will be teams of lawyers that figure out if the SOG and CS locks are similar enough to the Axis lock to warrant legal action. It has more to do with patent law expertise than knife expertise. BTW, I have handled several CS Recons and the pivot action is gritty and grabby. Nothing like a BM Axis lock.
David

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AKTI# A000150
NC Custom Knifemakers Guild member
NC Knife Knuts member
 
True David.. and that is excactly what I find sad. The creators of the locks in question *KNOW* if they came up with the idea or if they took it from some-one else.
If I were to copy something, I'd ask permission if it is really apparent.
To invent a lock design is very different from modifying it. I respect the inventors a lot more. But in this case...who are the inventors? Only the people in question will ever know. If only they could be straightforward and say that they did modify "those other guy's" lock... I wouldn't mind. I'd respect the honesty of the company in question.
But this situation cannot have 4 or more inventors who - all at once - invent a very similar lock. Chances are they actually all independent invented their locks, but i don't believe that. This is too convient all at once.
The truth is known by a certain group of people... and now the companies decided lawyers only can figure out the truth..
rolleyes.gif
rolleyes.gif
rolleyes.gif
. yeah right. like the ever figure out the whole truth.

------------------
"If the world wouldn't SUCK, we'd all fall off !"

You can E-mail me at any time....guaranteed reply !

member of the BKS
http://www.expage.com/belgianknives

My knife-page :
http://www.student.kuleuven.ac.be/~m9710483/index.html
 
I believe I've seen it explained here before that the Axis lock is essentially just a clever variation of the much older bolt type lock, the main difference being that the bolt was activated from the spine, while the Axis is obviously operated along the handle slabs.

From what I can remember of that post, the moral of the story was that, where folder locking mechanisms are concerned, there really hasn't been anything truly new or revolutionary developed in some time.

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Semper Fi

-Bill
 
Anyone have any guesses on how the lock in Bart's picture works? It is exactly backwards from similar locks. That is, when the 710's blade is fully open, the bolt (and button) is pulled forward onto the blade tang by the omega springs. To unlock the knife, you pull the button backwards. In the picture above, the knife is locked open and the button and bolt are all the way to the back.

Regarding the origin of these lock types -- whose main feature is that a bolt is pulled forward by springs to block the blade tang -- didn't the Gerber Bolt-Action pre-date them all by quite a few years?

Joe

 
...And is that bolt action a Blackie Collins design?

-Razor

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AKTI #A000845
And tomorrow when you wake up it will be worse.
 
And the one design that everyone overlooks came in between the bolt-action and the axis. Timberline had the Neely Lock on their Timberlite models. The blade has an elongated pivot hole with a spring in it. When you open the blade it springs back into the handle to lock. To unlock you pull the blade straight forward, then pivot closed. Inside the molded handle is a stud that is stationary up in about the same place as an axis pin. The axis lock is the same locking style as the neely. The only difference is that in the neely, the blade moves; in the axis, the stud moves.
I like both styles really, I have two Timberlites(one small, one large)and one BM 705. There are two main differences between the two. The neely has no choice but to be a very tight pivot between the handle and the blade, with the spring right there in the blade if it loosened up it would not work or lock up correctly. The other problem that it has is that the two surfaces between the blade and the stud are perfectly flat and not concave like the axis(the stud fits in a groove on the tang of the blade). This means that with extra pressure(or a spine whack) you have a much greater chance of the lock failing on you.
I have nothing against the axis lock, it is just that everyone hollers about all of the "axis rip-offs" and mention the bolt-lock but never the neely lock, which preceded the axis by two or three years. If you do a search on patents there is a thread in which Paracelcus discusses patents fairly completely and provides a link to the U.S. Patent Office directly to the axis lock patent. In that page they do reference back to the neely lock also.

Take care.

Andy

Here is the link to the thread that I mentioned:
http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum64/HTML/000808.html

Good luck.

[This message has been edited by Andy Wilson (edited 05-09-2001).]
 
Andy,

That's interesting, I never knew how the Neely lock worked. Even knowing that, I still don't give the Neely lock that much credit. It's a lock that I have always thought was a terrible idea -- if your blade gets stuck and you pull back a little, the damn thing unlocks! And indeed, we've gotten the predictable reports of cut fingers from people foolish enough to actually put their Neely lock folder to use.

The axis lock is so different in outcome than the Neely lock that I'm certainly not willing to say the axis is a copy with minor changes. There are very important changes in design, and also in the resulting reliability. My opinion is different from yours: the Neely lock is an evolutionary dead-end between the old bolt-and-spring locks like the bolt action, and the current top of the evolutionary ladder, the axis. I'd be surprised if any of the designers of current locks that use bolts and springs -- axis, arc, rolling, etc. -- were influenced a whole lot by the Neely. But, I definitely don't know that for sure, so you could very well be right.

Can someone explain to us definitively how the bolt action worked?

Joe
 
I'm not too strong in patent regulations so I'll not discuss this matter.
But please take attention to lock release button's position at this picture. The blade is opened and seems to be locked but the operation button stays in rear position. Probably the user should push it forwards to unlock the blade.
And now look onto your Axis Lock or Arc Lock knife. The button stays in front position when blade is locked and you should pull it rearwards to unlock the blade, isn't it?
In my humble opinion pictured knife's internal construction could differ a lot from both Axis Lock and Arc Lock. The similar look of operation button probably is not enough to accuse someone of ripping-off...


[This message has been edited by Sergiusz Mitin (edited 05-10-2001).]
 
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