Who likes soft steel on knives?

[A.P.F.]

For me, civilization peaked at S30V. (Says he, with an M4 Bradley in pocket.)

 

[Steven Andrews]

I generally prefer hard steels, but I do have a Sebenza.

 

[Gator97]

Three hours? Really? To sharpen a knife?

I specifically said flat rock as it is used in the context of those explanations for low HRC and ease of field sharpening
You said:

...whereas a softer steel could be sharpened on any old flat rock you should happen to find.

I had no idea you could find norton whetstones in the field and bush. Packed in a blue boxes at that.
BTW, if you or those original posters had clarified, we call industrially made sharpening stones "flat rocks" I wouldn've posted at all

With respect, that might be the best you can do with a flat rock, but you're selling the whole flat rock concept a little short .

No, mater of fact I can do a lot better than that, but...
According to you and the photo you post, bush and outdoor in general, is littered with Norton sharpening whetstones.
I'm just curious, do you seriously propose that the "old flat rock" mentioned in original posts is same as Norton sharpening stone? Last time I checked sharpening stones were either synthetically made, or mined from very specific places.

And if you have that stone with you... Especially that you post for me a whetstone, which implies you also have a water to go along with it. For one, Spyderco Sharpmaker, complete with 2 sets of rods would probably take as much space.
Second, having whetstones and all that on you, what's the biggie sharpening ZDP-189, considering you are good with "flat rocks"?

 

[Gadgetaholic]

Very popular explanation. I've heard that before a lot. Although, one thing that is very certain, softer knives are more cost effective for the manufacturers to make, in short and long term. Production is faster, costs less and induces less wear and tear on the equipment. It's definitely a serious reason. Abusive users, most likely inexperienced in sharpening is another point worth considering. Altough, with all respect to 1095 and 170-6C neither is a super steel by any stretch of the imagination.

I would like to point out that the KA-BAR tech did say "very slightly lower in rockwell hardness" and to me that doesn't suggest that they made the knives soft. When I use my BK-9 for chopping & batoning I like to know that the knife is tough, but experience also tells me that from the way it holds its edge well while chopping hard wood it surely has good hardness and the edge retention is up where is needs to be. For a large knife with a 9" blade that is good at chopping I would say that 15-20% increase in toughness is well worth it as long as not too much hardness is lost. I would not call 1095 CroVan a soft steel by any stretch of the imagination.

I agree, there are cases when that is the case, but there are also light use knives and then lower hrc and added toughness gains me absolutely nothing, while I loose edge retention and cutting ability(because I have to grind thicker edge)...

For light use knives I would think that they aren't going to be losing cutting ability overly fast due to only having light use. But there are always other options to suit what you want in a knife - buy a ZDP-189 if hardness matters more than toughness. All I know is that my VG-10 knives take on a crazy sharp edge, slice tomatoes like they aren't even there and can be back to crazy sharp with a quick strop.

 

[Sword and Shield]

As for the ease of the field sharpening, I don't buy it. The best you can do in the field with a flat rock it to either realign the edge, or minor a touchup. No way one can grind a new bevel, i.e. really sharpen a knife on that rock in any sensible amount of time. 2-3 touchups on that soft steel knife and the edge will be gone and you need a real sharpener to sharpen it, or spend few hours on that flat rock. Which begs the question, why exactly it is user friendly to have someone grind his knife on the stone for 3 hours in the bushcraft/survival situation? Harder and more wear resistant steel may not need sharpening at all with the same workload. Besides, how big of a problem is it to pack DMT diafold or simething like that in your pocket or your field knife sheath pocket if you expect surviving in the bush that long, with that mcuh of a knife work?

Have to disagree. I've done more than a few field sharpenings, and taken a completely blunt knife to working sharp fairly easily- river sandstone is great for this purpose. As for being able to do this only a few times, got to disagree there, too- my record is 2 weeks, with daily sharpening on a chunk of Ohio sandstone, and the knife was still usably sharp when I was done.

This was over a 2-week survival course, and outside sharpening gear was forbidden. My Ka-Bar got dull every day, got sharpened every night, and repeated the cycle.

 

[Gator97]

I would like to point out that the KA-BAR tech did say "very slightly lower in rockwell hardness"

Considering that in most of the cases it is very hard to get steel RC exactly at a given value, e.g. 58HRC precisely... We're always talking ranges.
So, "very slightly" is a vague term to begin with and with hardness we're talking 1-2HRC tolerances at the spec, so that "very slightly" most likely is at least 1 hrc if not more.

and to me that doesn't suggest that they made the knives soft.

No, I think the keyword was "softer". Otherwise, it's a piece of steel and it ain't soft by any definition.

I would not call 1095 CroVan a soft steel by any stretch of the imagination.

I didn't call any steel soft. And IMHO, without specifying actual HRC value and designed use it is meaningless to call the steel hard of soft. What is the criteria? 60HRC can be soft for one application and can be hard for another.

For light use knives I would think that they aren't going to be losing cutting ability overly fast due to only having light use.

No, I was not referring to loss of the sharpness,s but cutting ability as in the initial edge angle. 5-8 per side angles can't not be sustained by steel below certain RC values. Even 15deg per side becomes a problem for 54-56HRC steels. Sustain means used for cutting w/o being deformed on 1st cuts.

All I know is that my VG-10 knives take on a crazy sharp edge, slice tomatoes like they aren't even there and can be back to crazy sharp with a quick strop.

I can say the same about ZDP-189.

 

[Gator97]

Have to disagree. I've done more than a few field sharpenings, and taken a completely blunt knife to working sharp fairly easily- river sandstone is great for this purpose.

I do not question the ability of certain types of stones to sharpen the knife. After all, all of the natural sharpening stones are just that. What I do question is the statement that "any flat rock can do that", and the availability of those flat rocks, plus their performance on the average.
Again, there are no stones available in many environments, of any type. In other environments you might have limestone type stuff which is soft and crumbles readily.

As for being able to do this only a few times, got to disagree there, too- my record is 2 weeks, with daily sharpening on a chunk of Ohio sandstone, and the knife was still usably sharp when I was done.

I'm not a mineralogist But, I looked up "Ohio Sandstone", and this is the map for it. Which shows that Ohio Sandstone quaries are very localized. In other words, it's not very likely I can go hiking here in CA and find suitable flat ohio sandstone, in fact I won't find it at all. And I suspect not every sandstone is equal to that one in terms of abrasive power.
Besides, you didn't specify how much time you had to spend daily sharpening the knife with that stone.

This was over a 2-week survival course, and outside sharpening gear was forbidden. My Ka-Bar got dull every day, got sharpened every night, and repeated the cycle.

Well, ok that was your survival course and part of the game.
Now, tell me, what would be your advantage with softer knife + ohio sandstone combo over another guy who had harder knife + DMT diafold over the course of the same 2 weeks?
My bet is that guy would have to spend less time sharpening.

 

[DennisStrickland]

when going to the field its simple as you put on your boots to index your equipment to remember the small dmt diamonds. now we can all be happy whether using a hard or soft steel.

 

[A.P.F.]

when going to the field its simple as you put on your boots to index your equipment to remember the small dmt diamonds. now we can all be happy whether using a hard or soft steel.

Far too simplistic, Dennis.

 

[VTguy]

I see rocks are a touchy subject around here

 

[Hawkings]

I see rocks are a touchy subject around here

Don't you be badmouthing our rocks, ya hear :grumpy:

 

[shecky]

I won't say I prefer soft steel, as super hard steels are simply awesome to behold and use. But I do appreciate steel that will deform before chipping, for actual edc users. A deformed edge can be easily touched up and still work. A chipped edge takes more extensive work and can be a major pain in the butt in the field, sometimes requiring surprisingly extensive regrinding. Made worse by "field conditions" usually meaning "no power tools". I find chipped edges occur more often with the hard steels. Thus, softer steels get used more often for real work.

 

[knarfeng]

So, as I read through the posts so far, I see many folks talking about liking AUS8 and Buck 420HC. I also see non-stainless mentioned a lot.

There is nothing "soft" about Buck 420HC, nor about a lot of AUS8, nor even a lot of non-stainless. But they ARE all steels that don't have a lot of carbides. They have low abrasion resistance, not necessarily low hardness. There's a difference.

Let us use Buck 420HC as an example. I LIKE Buck 420HC and have measured the hardness of several of my Buck blades. They measured 59HRC. I don't count that as soft. Yes, it is below the 63HRC figures I see mentioned above. But it is still a respectable hardness. I have Spydercos and Benchmades in VG10 and 154CM that I measured and got the same hardness as the 420HC. But the Bucks sharpen easier and don't hold an edge as long when doing side-by-side manila rope cutting.

So if the Buck 420HC is just as hard as the Spyderco VG10, why does the VG10 hold an edge way longer? Why is the VG10 harder to sharpen and harder to take to the razor edge I get so easily with the 420HC? Because the 420HC does not form carbides and the VG10 does. The carbides do two things. They put little chunkies in the edge that are abrasion resistant. They make the blade edge abrasion resistant. That means they are harder to sharpen. The carbides also make it harder to get a razor edge. They are harder than some of the grinding stones. When you have an alloy with a lot of Vanadium carbide such as M4, well, there a lot of folks who spend a lot of time with diamond stones and diamond paste strops. And since diamond is about the only sharpening medium that is harder than Vanadium Carbide, they can get that ultrafine edge that others of us get so easily in a few minutes using a simple stone with 420HC. You can sharpen those uber alloys without the fancy diamonds and you can get a good working edge that will last and last. But it won't be quite as sharp as that initial razor edge on the 420HC. It's a trade-off.

So perhaps some of us should differentiate between "soft steels" and "low carbide steels". I do. I don't like soft steels. I do often like low carbide steels (including carbon steels, and low alloy steels) because they are easy to sharpen with simple tools to a very very fine edge. But I am also a fan of high carbide content steels. What I reach for depends on what I'm goint to do with the knife.

 

[hardheart]

I think the advantage would be that you can sharpen a soft steel with a diafold, and still sharpen it if you lose the diafold, if there are natural abrasives in the area. If you have something of a very high carbide fraction and you lose your sharpener, you're a little harder up. Still, I and many others have sharpened high alloys on natural quartz and garnet stones. It is slow, but can be done. Sandstone can do some coarser work.

 

[fujita yuji]

Purpose comes first and hardness comes after that.
Sharpening hard edge is difficult compared to soft edge so that
if the edge is supposed to cut soft things, softer edge will be preferable.
In case of abrasive things, steels with hard carbide will be better.
In case of cutting/carving hard material, hardness will be required.

 

[Slim to None]

my zdp189 caly jr and caly 3 are both great knives. That said, sharpening both of them is a major pain compared to sharpening up a CV sodbuster jr, 1095 GEC barlow, or even an s30v sebenza.

If I had to choose one steel out of all the above, I'd go with the CV. Reputedly it's pretty close to 1084m, which is good stuff.

 

[Dorito Monk]

No, mater of fact I can do a lot better than that, but...
According to you and the photo you post, bush and outdoor in general, is littered with Norton sharpening whetstones.
I'm just curious, do you seriously propose that the "old flat rock" mentioned in original posts is same as Norton sharpening stone? Last time I checked sharpening stones were either synthetically made, or mined from very specific places.

I'll tell you what. I'm a little to smashed at eht moment to give a flyring crap, alright? .

Since you seem to be obsessed with the semanticks of various sharpmen ing methods, I'll tell you what: Tomorrow, I will go grab one of the vaguely flat rocks out of my friggin back yard and sharpen up my Gerber Big rock. Hell, the rock doesn't even have to be flat 449a steel, very soft, recently had a bad run in with some concrete. At high speedd. The edge is all forkeds up. I'll go sharpen up this knife and tell you just how well the rock performed, okay? Just for kicks, let's see if your pretentious comments are well founded

 

[Gator97]

Why exactly are my comments pretentious Because I doubted norton waterstones in the bushes?

 

[jpvjr]

Hi guys,

Who prefers softer steels on knives rather than the new hard stuff?
And what is your preferred soft steel?

I have an old (25+ yrs) CV Soddy by case you can strop on the palm of your hand. This is ideal, I don't know why they make their new CV as hard as they do.

 

[Leftoverdj]

Matter of taste, folks, and more edge retention vs sharpenability than hard vs soft. Me, I prefer my knives to be easily brought back to full sharpness over extreme edge retention, but I ain't gonna argue with those with the opposite opinion.

As to field sharpening, it ain't gonna come up often, but anything abrasive can be used to sharpen. Some might do a better job, and some might take more ingenuity, but they'll all work.