Who likes soft steel on knives?

[Amaranth]

Hi guys,

Who prefers softer steels on knives rather than the new hard stuff?
And what is your preferred soft steel?

I prefer softer steels on machetes and Bowie knives.

For small pocket knives, I like the "Hard Stuff". CPMS30V, D2, ZDP189 all take and hold better edges and I like cutting with something that's razor sharp.

It all depends on the application or use, there's no "Better" steel for all purposes.

 

[Dorito Monk]

Yowza. Apologies for any distress that last post caused to you BF members, I definitely wasn't watching what I was saying. :foot:

Why exactly are my comments pretentious

Why are your comments pretentious? Not sure. Perhaps you weren't hugged enough as a child? That's an issue for a professional to examine, I'm afraid. No apologies for what I said, as I'm afraid I meant it, but nonetheless I'm sorry for being so crass about it.

 

[Gator97]

Why are your comments pretentious? Not sure. Perhaps you weren't hugged enough as a child? That's an issue for a professional to examine, I'm afraid.

Well, like you said, it's for pros, so let's leave it to them I suspect you don't qualify in that area.

No apologies for what I said, as I'm afraid I meant it, but nonetheless I'm sorry for being so crass about it.

No worries, none required. However, it's be more productive if you provided something more relevant to this thread than cheap personal attacks and nortons in the bushes...

Once again, I don't question the possibility on sharpening a knife on "certain rocks". Question was the availability of such stones in the wild, and I do stand by my statement that it's not that easy, if possible at all, given the area. If you have any proof to the contrary feel free to provide it, I have no problems admitting when I am wrong.
Plus the time required for sharpening with those rocks. Not sure about your skills, but I have seen hardHeart's video, and he seems to have the same opinion that the process is slow.

 

[stabman]

Once again, I don't question the possibility on sharpening a knife on "certain rocks". Question was the availability of such stones in the wild, and I do stand by my statement that it's not that easy, if possible at all, given the area.

That's because you're using inferior American rocks; you should be using fine Canadian rocks.

 

[Hawkings]

Well, like you said, it's for pros, so let's leave it to them I suspect you don't qualify in that area.


No worries, none required. However, it's be more productive if you provided something more relevant to this thread than cheap personal attacks and nortons in the bushes...

Once again, I don't question the possibility on sharpening a knife on "certain rocks". Question was the availability of such stones in the wild, and I do stand by my statement that it's not that easy, if possible at all, given the area. If you have any proof to the contrary feel free to provide it, I have no problems admitting when I am wrong.
Plus the time required for sharpening with those rocks. Not sure about your skills, but I have seen hardHeart's video, and he seems to have the same opinion that the process is slow.

Tried searching for hardHeart on the tube but my google fu is weak, someone help me with a link please.

 

[Dorito Monk]

That's because you're using inferior American rocks; you should be using fine Canadian rocks.

Word. :thumbup:

If you have any proof to the contrary feel free to provide it

Funny how I suddenly need to provide proof to back up the claims of some Kyzliar knife co. representatives who I don't know from Adam .

I'm curious now. I guess this calls for action instead of jabbering over the internet. Behold: a test.

I just went out in my backyard and found a rock. It's not even very flat. Pretty round. It's the first rock I found. Would you agree that this provides an acceptable sample to test the abilities of generic rocks as sharpening implements?

I went into my basement and found my Big Rock. I'll sharpen the Big Rock on the not-so-flat rock and tell you guys how it goes. Would this be an adequate test of the usefulness of said not-so-flat rock as a sharpening implement?

Be back in a bit.

 

[Reeek]

For me, civilization peaked at S30V. (Says he, with an M4 Bradley in pocket.)

For folders, this is my sentiment as well. I feel 100% assured with a well heat treated S30V blade in my pocket. (Loving the GB too )

 

[Dorito Monk]

Hey guys, I'm back. It took me all of about 5 minutes to remove all the chips and flat spots from the Big Rock's blade. Maybe another 3 to smooth it out to a useable edge. It's not the finest edge ever by any stretch, but without even stropping it on my belt, it passes the generic paper-cutting test with flying colours. I've had knives that came duller than this out of the box.

There was a spot at the base of the edge that the rock couldn't reach, just because of the rock's curved shape. For an improvised field sharpening method, I'd say it worked pretty well, especially considering I picked my sharpening system off the ground.

I can provide pics only if I manage to borrow someone's digital camera sometime. I don't think you'll be able to see the edge clearly with my cell's camera...

So, based on personal experience, I'd say that 3-hour estimate of yours, Gator97, was an absolute joke. Now, whether you guys find this test to be adequately scientific or not is a whole different kettle of fish. Personally, I did this purely to see if using a rock would be a viable sharpening method for me in a pinch. Turns out it is. :thumbup:

 

[EDCguy]

I like the steel Victorinox uses. I like sadvic stainless steel, also a fan of aus-8. I don't have much experience with the super steels, but they are too exspensive and hard to sharpen to me. VG-10 is a great steel though. I'm open to trying new steels though.

 

[Gator97]

Funny how I suddenly need to provide proof to back up the claims of some Kyzliar knife co. representatives who I don't know from Adam .

Correction, you were asked to back up your own statements
Now what is funny - you want to believe the statement of someone who you according to your words do not now, and based on your comment below never even tried before.

I'm curious now. I guess this calls for action instead of jabbering over the internet. Behold: a test.

Next time, perhaps you should test first?

I just went out in my backyard and found a rock. It's not even very flat. Pretty round. It's the first rock I found. Would you agree that this provides an acceptable sample to test the abilities of generic rocks as sharpening implements?

Why? You didn't say what it was, and based on what do you assume average rocks are the same all over the places? But ok, let's assume it was average US rock.

Would this be an adequate test of the usefulness of said not-so-flat rock as a sharpening implement?

Your Gerber big rock is made of 440A, Kabars mentioned in this thread are 1095 Cro-Van, Kizlyars 440C or Z60D14. Obviously 440A is the softest in terms of hardness and wear resistance.

It took me all of about 5 minutes to remove all the chips and flat spots from the Big Rock's blade. Maybe another 3 to smooth it out to a useable edge. It's not the finest edge ever by any stretch, but without even stropping it on my belt, it passes the generic paper-cutting test with flying colours. I've had knives that came duller than this out of the box.

So, in total of 8 minutes you sharpened completely dull knife. I'm very skeptical about that, especially that initial state is completely unknown.


The photo here shows 440A blade, common kitchen knife. It took more than 10 minutes to remove all the chips and rolls from that edge, using Bester 500 grit whetstone.


Here's another one, Global chefs knife edge, Chromova 18 steel, 56-58HRC. Quite wear resistant stuff. This one also needed 10-15 minutes to get rid of the chips, although with coarser 220 grit Shapton glassstone.

So, based on personal experience, I'd say that 3-hour estimate of yours, Gator97, was an absolute joke.

Whatever makes you happy Although, it would't hurt if you really read what I posted,

2-3 touchups on that soft steel knife and the edge will be gone and you need a real sharpener to sharpen it, or spend few hours on that flat rock.

If you still don't understand the above, I can post a drawing later tonight, but in simple words, sharpening a secondary bevel at a higher angle is much faster work, although it can't be done too many times and then you are back ot removing the thicker shoulders, i.e. removing a lot of metal.

Based on my personal experience, with 440A and many other steels, I find it very hard to believe that you can do it in 8 minutes even with 440A steel using rounded rock.
Obviously, if you have ever tried doing the same feat with 1095 crovan or even 440C at 58 HRC, which is more likely with the knives listed at the beginning, times would be considerably higher.

 

[hardheart]

I don't use this name on youtube, you would be better off searching the maintenance forum. I can't even log in to youtube because I don't remember the password or which email account I used

How sharp the knife is, or needs to be, is an important detail. I have gotten knives to shave the hair from my arms after sharpening with 36 grit grinding wheels, and the edges at 100x didn't look much better than those 110x pics. They are not durable or keen, but are not a bad approximation of what millions of people get by with daily. Actually, since I can take hair from my arm, they are a heck of a lot better than many.

An arkansas stone or guangzhi polisher is slow compared to a Glasstone or Super Stone, hundreds instead of dozens of passes. But this is for finishing straight razors or getting knives to whittle hair. Maybe I can get together some rocks and try them out on a few knives.

 

[The Government]

If "common stones" work well on soft steels it would be nice to see results on hard steels as well. That would be appropriate for the thread and interesting.

 

[elkins45]

Speaking as someone with a degree in geology I can assure you that not all rocks are created equally. Rocks are made of minerals, and minerals are ranked in relative hardness from 1 (talc) to 10 (diamond) on something called the Mohs hardness scale. A harder mineral can scratch one that is lower on the scale.

For field expedient testing, a knife blade is around 5.5 on this scale and a steel file is at 6.5. Quartz (the main ingredient in sandstone and quartzite and a component of many igneous rocks like granite) is a 7, so any rock composed of quartz would be a good sharpener for steel knife blades.

Calcite (the main ingredient of limestone) is a 3 on the Mohs scale. You could rub your knife against it all day and just get tired hands. Almost the entirety of northern and central KY is covered with limestone, so field rock sharpening isn't an option for me.

The rock you have available determines if sharpening on a rock is even possible.

 

[Reeek]

Me too

Speaking as someone with a degree in geology I can assure you that not all rocks are created equally. Rocks are made of minerals, and minerals are ranked in relative hardness from 1 (talc) to 10 (diamond) on something called the Mohs hardness scale. A harder mineral can scratch one that is lower on the scale.

For field expedient testing, a knife blade is around 5.5 on this scale and a steel file is at 6.5. Quartz (the main ingredient in sandstone and quartzite and a component of many igneous rocks like granite) is a 7, so any rock composed of quartz would be a good sharpener for steel knife blades.

Calcite (the main ingredient of limestone) is a 3 on the Mohs scale. You could rub your knife against it all day and just get tired hands. Almost the entirety of northern and central KY is covered with limestone, so field rock sharpening isn't an option for me.

The rock you have available determines if sharpening on a rock is even possible.

 

[Gator97]

They are not durable or keen, but are not a bad approximation of what millions of people get by with daily.

Well, that was my point. You can get something quickly, but it's neither durable, nor it can qualify as "completely removed chips and nicks"... If you sharpen at the same angle, it'll take longer period each time, if you sharpen at a higher angle,it's faster but then it'll thicken the edge, and at some point you have to remove all that metal. And 1095 CroVan even at 58HRC is not in the same league as 440A at 54-56HRC.

Speaking as someone with a degree in geology I can assure you that not all rocks are created equally.

Precisely! That's why "good flat rock" doesn't make much sense, especially when talking about the country of size like US or Russia.

so any rock composed of quartz would be a good sharpener for steel knife blades.

Basically, I'd have to be somewhat good at geology or mineralogy to pick the right stone.

Almost the entirety of northern and central KY is covered with limestone, so field rock sharpening isn't an option for me...
The rock you have available determines if sharpening on a rock is even possible.

In other words there may not be any suitable rocks, you have to know what to look for and where. All that instead of packing 1 sharpener and getting softer knives...

 

[Peter Parker]

I like a soft steel on a hunting knife so it can be very easily touched up in the field. My custom made hunting knife has a 440C blade RC of 56. That for me is just right since this knife is just for cutting meat! I also greatly like Victorinox's steel too!

 

[Leftoverdj]

"Logic" never matches actual test.

Talc and calcite are both abrasive and both will remove much harder metal over time. I know this because I have done it. They are used as metal polishes on buffing wheels and will not only polish but will round edges if you get heavy handed about it.

Once again, anything abrasive can be used to sharpen.

 

[Gator97]

Well, actual thing was the time involved. Otherwise, nobody debated that things can be abraded with various materials.

Other than that, you are technically and practically correct. I've read about the bronze statue in Vatican if I am not mistaken, worshipers kiss the toe of the statue and during few centuries big toe is pretty much worn off...
Obviously human lips are far less abrasive than the limestone and much softer than even the bronze. Yet given the time...

Air and water are nowhere near as hard or abrasive than other natural materials, but they still manage to erode rocks and everything else.

Again, time scales are different

 

[Dorito Monk]

I remember a video a while ago of a rep. from Kizlyar knives of Russia explaining that they intentionally make all of their knives on the slightly softer side to help with field sharpening - the logic being that super-steels would be difficult to sharpen without all kinds of fancy edgepro-this, DMT-that, whereas a softer steel could be sharpened on any old flat rock you should happen to find.

This was the original claim regarding the ease of field sharpening with softer steels. You'll note who made said claim (some Russian guy), which was then attacked by Gator97. In pointing out that he didn't know what he was talking about, I was tasked with "proving it".

Gator97, my boy, the only claim I made about the subject was that you were selling the notion of using a flat rock in a pinch (ie: having no better option available to you) a little short. Also, that you are being pretentious, but that's just an unpleasant reality and entirely beside the point.

Now what is funny - you want to believe the statement of someone who you according to your words do not now, and based on your comment below never even tried before.

Wow, we love assuming, don't we? Watch out - you know what they say about assumptions, don't you? . Since I haven't said anything about my past experience with field sharpening, where did you get this statement from? Honestly, scratch that, I can use my imagination... :barf:

You didn't say what it was, and based on what do you assume average rocks are the same all over the places? But ok, let's assume it was average US rock.

Again with the assumptions. Good god, man, you're going to have to get those under control. Read what I said: It's a rock. It's round. It came out of my back yard. That's the sum total of what I know about it. Further examination tells me it's sedimentary, probably sandstone, and kind of blue/grey. Why would you assume anything more about it?

Your Gerber big rock is made of 440A, Kabars mentioned in this thread are 1095 Cro-Van, Kizlyars 440C or Z60D14. Obviously 440A is the softest in terms of hardness and wear resistance.

Excellent. I'm glad we agree that the knife is completely and utterly relevant to this thread of discussion. You know, since the thread is called "Who likes soft steel on knives?".

Based on my personal experience, with 440A and many other steels, I find it very hard to believe that you can do it in 8 minutes even with 440A steel using rounded rock.

That would be the same personal experience which led you to understand that it would take three hours to sharpen a blade in the field with a rock, right? Why don't you share some of that personal experience sharpening blades in the field with rocks? Or has this whole position of yours merely been assumption and inference based on your experiences sharpening knives using factory-made sharpening implements? Why don't you clarify your experience for us?

 

[The Government]

As a side note, it is possible that "the common US rock" that is in question is not a native rock at all to the state. If it was found in a back yard it may be part of a gravel foundation or driveway, like many of our residences have and it could have travelled from far away. I dont know much about gravel. -Possibly something to think about?