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Who verifies the tests that we see

beera said:
#

So we should have an independent body for testers. And all people who think they come up with something good, submit their work to this body and it should be totally on merit and qualities and categories, no politics

no politics

I don't think a knife with S30v would win but again, the personal is political

:D

This kind of purely scientific testing body seems pretty important to you; you might just be the person who ends up creating it.
 
I'm wondering who would pay these people to do the testing? It couldn't be the manufacturers or makers, because then you would have a conflict of interest.

Another problem that comes to mind is the number of different knives there are. There is no way that the people doing these tests would ever be able to get to all the models that people would be interested in. That means that you may never see a test of a knife you are interested in, or it may be tested long after you are in need of the information.
 
Which is exactly why there's review and passaround forums!

Seriously.

- as mentioned there's no way a single person or knife mag could evaluate all the knives that come out.

- Only people working as distibuted, parallel reviewers can handle the load.

- IMO you can pretty much get an over all understanding based on looking at the mutliple reviews.

-
 
beera said:
So we should have an independent body for testers.

It exists (essentially the public) and people do offer knives to review (pass around forums for example). Agreement isn't universal on the quality of the feedback, but this holds for everything, even scientific journals are not all equal in terms of respect/quality. I'd like to see more feedback on stones personally, I can think of at least a half a dozen people immediately on the forums who would make an excellent review panel.

-Cliff
 
Cliff Stamp said:
It exists (essentially the public) and people do offer knives to review (pass around forums for example). Agreement isn't universal on the quality of the feedback, but this holds for everything, even scientific journals are not all equal in terms of respect/quality. I'd like to see more feedback on stones personally, I can think of at least a half a dozen people immediately on the forums who would make an excellent review panel.

-Cliff

It exists but there is no academy

no school of thought

Its all political
:)

We should make a knife study degree
:)
and academics

Its the only way to escape poletics
:)
 
It does exist formally, it would be a branch of materials engineering, you can find published journal articles performance of steels, and geometrical aspects. You could easily make it your formal field of study for graduate work. Moving beyond that into a consumer reports type of publication on actual specific products, as it exists now it runs publically on the internet with no formal editing. You can of course yourself edit the work, you could create a compliation webpage, act as editor, interview the reviewers, summarize results, start an online magazine, or dedicated forum, etc. .

-Cliff
 
Fulloflead, you see ads that match stories in all magazines. Thats how the it works. The magazines know in advance what stories will run and when, in fact they put out a list. Then companies that make those products, see the sense it placing ads for say their tantos when a magizine is running a piece on tantos. This is common for all types of magazines when a boating mag does a story on family runabouts, there will be lots of ads for family runabouts. Next month when they review deck boats the number of deck boat ads will reflect that.
 
Lone Hunter said:
Fulloflead, you see ads that match stories in all magazines. Thats how the it works. The magazines know in advance what stories will run and when, in fact they put out a list. Then companies that make those products, see the sense it placing ads for say their tantos when a magizine is running a piece on tantos. This is common for all types of magazines when a boating mag does a story on family runabouts, there will be lots of ads for family runabouts. Next month when they review deck boats the number of deck boat ads will reflect that.

I know how it works. My girlfriend works in publishing and I used to too.

A REPUTABLE, ETHICAL magazine/newspaper, etc. will have an editorial staff that's SEPARATE from their Ad staff; each of which act independantly from each other. Mix the two at ALL and you lose credibility. It makes it look as if you they bought ad space in return for a good writeup.

Yes, publications will solicit advertisers by saying, "Hey, we're doing a special issue about Bass Fishing. Do you have any Bass products you'd like to put in front of potential customers", and this would be totally legit and admirable. However, when you say, "Hey, wanna buy some ad space? We can write a nice review of one of your products and put your ad on the facing page." Then that's slimey.

I'm not saying that's what they're doing. I'm saying it LOOKS like that's what they're doing.

Gun rags are worse. I once read one where the writer had to plug the brand of every item he touched during his "test" from his hearing protecters to the sand bags he rested the gun on. What a shame.

.
 
beera, no offense, but why do you need somebody to tell you how good a knife is. This forum alone offers plenty of suggestions what you could buy. Why don't you go out, buy a couple of knifes and figure out for your own what you like and what you don't. Much more effective than reading in a journal or high gloss magazine what supposedly the best steel or knife is. For about 20 editions of the typical high gloss knife magazin, you get already a very nice knife and you can always trade it, if you don't like it.

I will admit, I get a bit annoyed at people that read x number of reviews and afterwards know exactly what the best *enter category here* is, but never actually held one in their hands. Reading reviews is fine, if you want to narrow your choices down or if you want to avoid a dud. But I think one shouldn't push it too far. I mean, you can even participate in the passaround. What review could possibly beat "owning" one for a day?

....And you have no idea about the politics in academia. There were times at which I have wished I had gone into politics instead of science...at least in politics people are trustworthy and honest....in comparison :barf:. Trust me, the Korean guy that got caught with his stem cell research is not an isolated case..... But that is a different story.
 
HoB said:
....And you have no idea about the politics in academia. There were times at which I have wished I had gone into politics instead of science...at least in politics people are trustworthy and honest....in comparison :barf:. Trust me, the Korean guy that got caught with his stem cell research is not an isolated case..... But that is a different story.

I'm actually curious as hell.:confused:

.
 
HoB said:
beera, no offense, but why do you need somebody to tell you how good a knife is. .

Because they cost money?

It would be nice if failures (lock failures especially) and negatives/positives were illustrated with photographs and side by side comparisons.

Perhaps a print/online magazine devoted exclusively to torture knife testing?

I would buy that.
 
They exist, outdoors magazine is on-line and hosts a lot of reviews of exactly this type, not tactical knives, generally axes and blades for wood working.

-Cliff
 
Why don't we have journals or forums that are like scientific journals of physics for example

Reviews are never going to be scientific because they use a sample size of one to evaluate a product. Magazines get products to review for free from the manufacturer and you can bet that the manufacturer is going to make sure they receive one of the better samples. Forum reviews are generally a random sample but you never really know if the reviewer got lucky or unlucky in receiving a good or bad knife from the assembly line.
 
fulloflead said:
I'm actually curious as hell.:confused:

.

Not him, but I can input from my research as an undergrad. Fudging of results is extremely common, as it doesn't take much to "drop" a plate on the floor or "forget" to add a series in.

I said once that I can make any data say anything I want them to, if I have enough time.
 
Lots of scientific research is done on single sample, most of the work in CIA, which is my field, is done on single bottles of gas, no one I know of actually buys several and repeats the work. Single shot samples only mean you can't estimate the population variance independently for that attribute which is single sample, this isn't required for scientific work unless your goal is of course to obtain the population variance for that attribute.

In general you would bound the results by the QC of the manufacturer/maker, and thus unless they were horrible with huge defect rates, the result for one shot sampling would be expected to pass the standard significance values. To clearify, how many defects do you think a custom maker sends out of his shop? Lets assume he is fairly sloppy and messes up on heat treatment or grinds so badly that one out of 20 knives is significantly difference from standard.

Even this very high defect rate is not high enough to surpass the standard significance rate for confidence which is 5%, thus if all makers had similar you would expect 1/20 of the reviews to give skewed data, in general this holds for published work in any journal. It is also unlikely that this is actually close to the defect rate.

No work is 100% in that you are perfectly confident that what you see is actual relation, even with multiple samples. All it does is give you more confidence, it isn't a binary equation where one is right and the other wrong. At most you can say is something like there is a 3% chance this relationship is just random, which means 97% of the time what you propose is real, however it also means 3% of the time it isn't. No matter how many samples you do this can never be made 0/100%.

There are also lots of reviews with multiple trials, I have worked with many blades of the same style, and then you can cross correlated to other blades of the same geometry or steel to expand the sample and confirm results and then check with other reviewers, just like you would working in a lab. You just don't consider what you do in one piece of work but look for ways to reference everything else you have done and what other people have done, it doesn't have to be idential for this to be useful.

You also of course contact the maker/manufacturer and discuss expected/warrentied performance with them, and if you want most will provide multiple samples, but since they are hand picked you have to assume a bias. If you really want to get a solid performance of population variance you would get a decent sample size from multiple shipment dates from various shifts and so on.

But as noted, it isn't necessary to have a population variance for the information to be meaningful, it would of course make it more meaningful, and the more you had the more meaningful it would be.

-Cliff
 
I love Bladeforums for reviews. You can usually get the comments of a number of users, and eventually learn the goods and bads of every knife. You've got to remember that review bias isn't always a bad thing. Some people are very picky about ergonomics, but very forgiving about edge retention. Other people have a different scale of criteria that makes them happy. People focus on aspects that are most important to them. Sooner or later, if the knife is good and popular enough, many people post their opinions, to where you can see all sides of the story in great detail. Then you just use your god-given common sense to separate the truth from the BS. Just do a search on the Benchmade 710 or Sebenza. No one review tells all, but the culmination of admittedly biased opinions really tells the story.

You'll never get a truly inbiased review. It won't happen. We all have our own expectations and preconceptions. If you hang out in the industry long you, you forge
 
Buzzbait said:
You'll never get a truly inbiased review. It won't happen. We all have our own expectations and preconceptions.

You may have a bias for example against black blades, however the work becomes biased when you let your preference effect the way the blade is described and specifically refuse to consider opposing viewpoints. There are lots of people who don't do this, Mike Swaim had lots of preferences for knives, he also did lots of work which was unbiased because he didn't just showcase what he wanted, consider :

http://groups.google.ca/group/rec.knives/msg/261085be7198bc8f

He notes his own preferences several times, but presents the data and not just the conclusions so the reader can judge for themselves, instead of for example using his own preference for flexibility totally control the perspective on the knives. His judgements at the end are biased, as they are all based on what he wants, but he states the criteria clearly and it is clear he isn't manipulating the tests to showcase purely his viewpoint.

As well he presents lot of data data without judgement, more so in other work for example the axe vs machete work, or the tactical blade comparison, etc. . You can easily do a review and just present the data and not give your judgements, or make it clear what is your judgement and offer opposing viewpoints. This would again be unbiased. He was also open to discussion about the results and not simply using them to push a personal and unfair viewpoint. That again would be biased.

Your arguement, if held rigidly, would hold for all scientific research, and thus all journal articles would be biased because everyone writing them has their own preference based on data analysis (mean vs median vs abs statistics for example). However as long as you state what you are doing, and don't choose one over the other to intentionally portray an unfair result or ignore contrary studies/work, to suit some personal preference, very few people would judge the work to be biased. I have never seen anyone actually use that arguement, it generally gets applied to details and then you discuss methods to remove the bias. Statistically bias means something else, basically a systematic source of error which is essentially the same effect from a different source.

-Cliff
 
Sorry Cliff. I'm not buying it. For example, part of a knife review should include comments on ergonomics and grip security. Any comments on ergonomics and grip security would be biased, as the fit of the knife to your individual hand is obviously biased. You couldn't have a clue as to how it would feel in somebody else's hand. These are aspects that are driven by the particular reviewer. Grip security can effect cutting performance as well as lock reliability, so things now begin to escalate.

Also, you are wrongly assuming that all aspects of a knife are tested. It “Reviewer A” doesn’t give a darn whether he can chop with a particular slipjoint, his bias is reflected in what he has not presented. It probably never even occurred to “Reviewer A” that anybody would be stupid enough to chop down a tree with a tiny slipjoint, but there is always that one exception to the gene pool. How about using a closed folder to pummel someone in self defense? How often is this tested?

You’re also forgetting the effects of the human subconscious. To pretend that it is not there, does not make it go away.
 
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