Who verifies the tests that we see

[STR]

As a user, How do I know that what I get is real information ?

Hi Beera. Been reading this thread since its inception and holding back but finally had to chime in. Real info? Now that is the question. What is real and what is objective? Does objective really even exist?

First information is out there but even after getting it you have to weigh it against your own knowledge and experience to see how it stands up. For example, my compressor says it has a specific output. It is lies. The whole of compressors in general with the air they put out, the capacity and all of it is never right. Never! You simply can't trust what it says so what do you do? You buy the best one you can afford and hope it does what you want it to do.

With knives: To me the best testing and reviews are from the individuals with no ulterior motive. Those with no vested interest that have no reason to be anything but forthright with their views, opinions and experiences. For example when I read of car and drivers 'car of the year' it means nothing more to me than that someone greased someone elses palm enough to get the award this year over somone elses product. Call me cynical.

The end line user is the best way to get a feel for how something works and why I find these forums so valuable, but even then there are factors such as favored over unfavored that need to be taken into consideration. Many write reviews but how good is it for me to write a super review on my Spyderco Ocelot when everyone knows I'm a Spyderco knut? Hard to see me as objective there and I agree with that. I favor them. That will show in my opinion.

As for the steel issues. I see a lot of various models from all makes in my shop. Knives are as different as fingerprints. I have an Ocelot that has never had that great VG10 biting edge that I've seen in others of the same steel. When I get one in that is the way I wanted mine to be I get jealous. Does it mean I got a bad knife? No, just that there are differences even from knives of the same model and even if slight. One bad knife or one bad blade shouldn't be enough to call all bad. Even two can't be enough. On some I've been into I've bought more than one knife of that model. The Buck/Strider 881Mini is a good example. I have bought four of them to find one that I thought stood out above the others and I sold the others for a small loss to get the one great one I was seeking. This doesn't mean that the others were faulty. They were fine for most anyone. I just compared all of them and picked the one I liked best for overall fit and finish, edge performance, lock up and anything else that stood out to me. Its a habit I've developed from seeing how things are in the knife world. Of course not all can do that and certainly not with cars or bigger items, but for me it has been a way to get the best of the particular knife I was after without hurting myself too bad.

Anyway, there are good and bad out there. Its up to you in the end to find them and determine for yourself what is fact and what is fiction in the end. No one, not a scientific team, or graduate study course on the subject can ever satisfy you with answers only you can give yourself.

STR

 

[DGG]

Which is exactly why there's review and passaround forums!

Seriously.

- as mentioned there's no way a single person or knife mag could evaluate all the knives that come out.

- Only people working as distibuted, parallel reviewers can handle the load.

- IMO you can pretty much get an over all understanding based on looking at the mutliple reviews.

-

Dave,

Say it again, some don't get it.

 

[DGG]

With all due respect, the fact that someone is Special Forces, or a hunter, or a shooter, does not make them an expert.

Their knowledge does, which may or may not be a product of their background and/or hobbies.

That said, I think Kim Breed does have a high level of knowledge, and I respect what I have read of his.

A guy or gal that uses a knife daily in their work will have a better understanding of it than a tester for the job he/she uses it for. The tester probably can't duplicate what the daily user does with his knife and how he does it.

For instance, I have a preference for thin flexible fishing knives because I have used them for many years very effectively if I may say so. Some like a much sturdier (stronger they think) fishing knive. Sometimes we get into a debate out on the boat and I'll challenge them to a fileting dual at the dock and whip up big time. Then I have to stop and show them why my knife works so much better and easier than their big hooter does. That's a real world test for a real world user.

I think the differences of opinion are great. They make life more interesting. Heck, they are the reason we have horse races! What is important is not someones else's review of a knife but your review of it. A cursory examination may tell you immediately that even though fit, finish, etc. is A+ the knife just isn't for you. Someone else may think it the greatest thing since sliced bread. That's okay! Nobody is right. Nobody is wrong.

 

[Sal Glesser]

With knives: To me the best testing and reviews are from the individuals with no ulterior motive. Those with no vested interest that have no reason to be anything but forthright with their views, opinions and experiences. For example when I read of car and drivers 'car of the year' it means nothing more to me than that someone greased someone elses palm enough to get the award this year over somone elses product. Call me cynical.

The end line user is the best way to get a feel for how something works and why I find these forums so valuable, but even then there are factors such as favored over unfavored that need to be taken into consideration.
STR

I agree. All of the input is valuable. One must try to take into consideration the knowledge and expeience of the person with the opinion, but they are ALL valuable.

sal

 

[beera]

Hi Beera. Been reading this thread since its inception and holding back but finally had to chime in. Real info? Now that is the question. What is real and what is objective? Does objective really even exist?

First information is out there but even after getting it you have to weigh it against your own knowledge and experience to see how it stands up. For example, my compressor says it has a specific output. It is lies. The whole of compressors in general with the air they put out, the capacity and all of it is never right. Never! You simply can't trust what it says so what do you do? You buy the best one you can afford and hope it does what you want it to do.

With knives: To me the best testing and reviews are from the individuals with no ulterior motive. Those with no vested interest that have no reason to be anything but forthright with their views, opinions and experiences. For example when I read of car and drivers 'car of the year' it means nothing more to me than that someone greased someone elses palm enough to get the award this year over somone elses product. Call me cynical.

The end line user is the best way to get a feel for how something works and why I find these forums so valuable, but even then there are factors such as favored over unfavored that need to be taken into consideration. Many write reviews but how good is it for me to write a super review on my Spyderco Ocelot when everyone knows I'm a Spyderco knut? Hard to see me as objective there and I agree with that. I favor them. That will show in my opinion.

As for the steel issues. I see a lot of various models from all makes in my shop. Knives are as different as fingerprints. I have an Ocelot that has never had that great VG10 biting edge that I've seen in others of the same steel. When I get one in that is the way I wanted mine to be I get jealous. Does it mean I got a bad knife? No, just that there are differences even from knives of the same model and even if slight. One bad knife or one bad blade shouldn't be enough to call all bad. Even two can't be enough. On some I've been into I've bought more than one knife of that model. The Buck/Strider 881Mini is a good example. I have bought four of them to find one that I thought stood out above the others and I sold the others for a small loss to get the one great one I was seeking. This doesn't mean that the others were faulty. They were fine for most anyone. I just compared all of them and picked the one I liked best for overall fit and finish, edge performance, lock up and anything else that stood out to me. Its a habit I've developed from seeing how things are in the knife world. Of course not all can do that and certainly not with cars or bigger items, but for me it has been a way to get the best of the particular knife I was after without hurting myself too bad.

Anyway, there are good and bad out there. Its up to you in the end to find them and determine for yourself what is fact and what is fiction in the end. No one, not a scientific team, or graduate study course on the subject can ever satisfy you with answers only you can give yourself.

STR

Thanks STR,
very informative and intelligent answer
but, Its so much hard work learning. There should be bottom up data and top down info.

We all complain, but there is not real trusted top down information body.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Does objective really even exist?

Yes, it should be trivial to realize this is true, objective simply means it exists in general, whereas subjective means it exists only in your mind. Consider for example Joe's sharpening FAQ, how many people do you think it has helped in regards to solving sharpening problems, this then by defination makes the work objective and scientific, the latter just means you gain information from it.

The end line user is the best way to get a feel for how something works and why I find these forums so valuable, but even then there are factors such as favored over unfavored that need to be taken into consideration.

There is this, I consider my brother as a valuable resource for example, but he has many severe biases, as with many tradesmen, he is very brand loyal, and it doesn't take many defects to turn him off of something. While on the forums you will often see people lambasted because they complain about 1-2 defects, in reality, you give any carpenter two failed hammers in a row and they will write it off as junk and never buy that again. In fact many would never try the second one unless the warrenty and support was severe and the representative really pushed that the first one was defective - I have seen this first hand on many occasions.

No one, not a scientific team, or graduate study course on the subject can ever satisfy you with answers only you can give yourself.

Fundamentally in scientific research you quickly realize you don't do everything yourself, it is simply too inefficient, plus why repeat what someone else has already done. For example, lets say you are new to knives and want to know how to sharpen, do you reinvent the process yourself or do you start reading the work Swaim, Talmadge and Clark have done? Of course at some point you have to sharpen a blade, but using the information provided by others makes the process many times faster.

I have used for example a lot of liner/integrals, dozens, from cheap to very high end, however I have learned more in the past short period reading your descriptions of the locks, specific problems in design, than I did in all the work I did with them. I now am in a much better position in the future to judge the performance of those locks that I see based on the work you have done. Since that work is real and I have learned from it, by defination it is objective and scientific.

A guy or gal that uses a knife daily in their work will have a better understanding of it than a tester for the job he/she uses it for.

Most of the better reviewers use knives, the reviews are based on just work they do and thus are performance based. Swaim for example worked in a fish plant, Clark spends time in soup kitchens, and so forth. What is interesting is to give a knife to someone in a radically different field and watch what happens. In general tradespeople are really blunt, and severely harsh on knives - if they don't actually pay for them anyway.

-Cliff